Credit report for ministry

[andrewlittle]

Yet another wrinkle in the ordination track.

The presbytery within which I live, and will possibly serve a church (???), has instituted a rule that each new minister will have to authorize the realease of a credit report to the Committee on Ministry.

This would be in addition to the other reports that check criminal record, character, background, etc. These, by the way, I agree with since they are aimed at protecting church members from predators, etc.

I am very inclined to refuse to allow this. It reeks of establishing classism in ministry (if you don't have the right credit references you're obviously not spiritually capable) and recognition of the secular category of credit worthiness being elevated to the level of a spiritual gift.

I am inclined to say, "thanks but no thanks. This is the last straw."

Any comments?

[Daniel]

Hoops! It's all hoops to jump through!

Wanna jump or not?

Per favor- recall what I mentioned on your other thread. Bureaucracies have their own rules. If you start micromanaging at this point you will be shooting yourself in the foot! It doesn't matter (really) what you think about the process. Is it worth it to you to get through it and out to the other side?

Think of it this way: why are you looking for reasons to bail? Where's that come from?

This is not the time to be driving with the brakes on.

[andrewlittle]

Dave said:

If a pastor has a really terrible credit rating it could mean that he/she is need of money which would make it more likely that he/she might engage in some kind of boundary violation such as accepting gifts and or loans from Parishioners or embezzling funds or misusing professional expense funds. have they said what they will do with the information?

It simply states the information will be used, along with criminal, background and driving records, to determine "suitability for ministry" by the Executive Presbyter and the COM.

Greed, power hunger, and other characteristics are far better indicators of potential unethical behavior, and I have been through the battery of psychological testing and been passed along. (My particular mental disturbances, evidently, aren't a problem.)

Likewise, after over twenty years in business and ten in church administration, the thorough employment and background checks they do will provide far more information than a credit check.

This is a continuation of being more and more "business like", but many businesses that have been doing credit checks as a basis for employment have dropped the program because it is simply an inaccurate and useless indicator. There's no correlation between credit rating and criminal or unethical behavior.


On top of that, the time to condition acceptance on credit rating would be before I have spent the last $24,000 of my own money, and borrowed $74,000 in student loans, to receive a seminary education. By using the exception for not having an undergraduate degree (long story), I have not qualified for any denominational scholarships whatsoever. The PC(USA) has invested no money in my preparation for ministry, but I did it anyway.

I have jumped through every hoop they put up. I did the extra coursework. I graduated with a 4.0. I passed the psych tests. I passed the ordination exams. I have written the extra papers on polity, theology, etc and passed with flying colors. I even got invited to study at Westminster College at Cambridge for a year, which I did even though it added another year to my Master's program.

And Daniel, I'm trying not to derail myself.

For ten years, as an elder and as an administrator working with various churches within the system, I have consistently tried to stop the "business-ization" of church. That has been, and still is, my primary passion in ministry. Next to that are GLBT and immigrant issues. But I have argued that the current "plight" of the church is not financial, not marketing, not a numbers game - it is a spiritual problem. I have argued that the church should not adopt secular business ethics, but be an exemplar of ethics to the business world. I have maintained that positions of responsibility in church governance should not be based on wealth, power, prestige and position - the world's standards of "success" - but on spiritual gifts and passion for ministry.

If I kowtow to this now, I would be violating my own sense of ethic to get ahead in the church. I would be the very thing I have campaigned against for ten years. My God, I might as well practice simony and just buy a damn ministry.

[Daniel]

With all that you have said, what I still hear is this:

If not giving them this information bars you from going further in the process, and giving it to them offends your sense of ethics, then you are at an impasse. You will have to resolve this dilemma in some way or another of let your goal pass you by.

Can you talk to these people about the their requirement and present them with the information you have discussed here? Are they approachable, or is it really a bureaucracy? A brick wall?

[revtj]

I agree that it's a potentially abusive practice that could play in to classist structures. I am also well aware that the folks on the other side of ordination typically do NOT want competetion for better paying jobs. They will vote for anything that makes it harder for newbies to get through.

However, if you want to be ordained, and if God has indeed called you to this church body, then I say hold your nose, sign the paper and remember that the institution provides a doorway...you were called by God, not a religious organization. Render unto Caesar, and then go do the work of the Lord!

You have no idea how much I wish it were different, or that there was some denomination out there that didn't have this kind of bs, but, believe me, the church is a broken, fallible, f-d up institution. I think of them as family.

But I want to encourage you to make a distinction between the institution and ordination. Ordination is a passage of initiation into ministry, not a stamp of approval for anything & everything your denomination does, has done or will do...

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by revtj

However, if you want to be ordained, and if God has indeed called you to this church body, then I say hold your nose, sign the paper and remember that the institution provides a doorway...you were called by God, not a religious organization. Render unto Caesar, and then go do the work of the Lord!

Yes! Well said!

We're trying like all get-out to push you (as gracefully as possible) through that door!

The church needs more clergy like you Andrew.

[novaseeker]

I would say that this is a bureaucratic hoop of questionable utility ... but it shouldn't get between you and your vocational call. So I kind of agree with the last few posts, in that you should probably grin and bear this detail, and simply proceed down the path you are on.

[Pablo Rafael]

Andrew,

I kind of agree with the general sentiment expressed up until now. I think that a person has to pick his/her battles. I wouldn't waste any energy on a financial issue; I think there are more important battles to fight. A credit report is only about material wealth, not about anything really important. I would just go with the flow myself.

(Besides we all want to see you in the pulpit.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[andrewlittle]

... like Dave's

Originally Posted by davidcom

Speak for yourself Pablo! You've read his posts... can you imagine that drivel droning on and on from the pulpit Sunday after Sunday? Yikes

I have decided to approach this differently - may my soul rest in peace.

I will allow them to do the credit check, with the caveat that it is under protest. I am attaching a statement that includes:

My reservations about allowing a credit report to be used as a condition of employment are based on both personal situations and ethical principles. The advice I have received from ministers and mentors from whom I have sought advice, is to allow the presbytery to use a credit report under protest, and deal with my objections separately even while acknowledging that they are, in reality, inseparable. This attachment refers primarily to my history and background with regard to financial matters which may or may not be revealed in a credit report. Since they are inseparable from my social ethic, I am also addressing those concerns at the end. I implore you read the entire statement.

[personal financial stuff]

Why am I writing all this? Well, actually, for several reasons.

First and foremost, since this presbytery seems to believe that a credit rating equates with the spiritual gifts needed in ministry, it is a defense of what I presume will be a pretty modest credit report. That report, however, does not even begin to address the financial circumstances of my life. It will tell you little about who I am, other than I could qualify for credit at a high interest rate.

In reality, however, it is also to counteract the common perception in our culture that someone with a bad credit rating is somehow irresponsible and unworthy of trust.

If I was irresponsible, I would have walked out of XYZ Corp (not real name)in 1991, upon finding out originally that taxes were not paid by the CFO. At the time, that was the advice of CPA’s and attorneys - leave to protect myself. I chose to take over the company, fire the CFO and enter into negotiations with the taxing authorities. If I had not done that, however, 300 hundred people would have lost their jobs, several hundred thousand dollars would not have been subsequently paid to the IRS for the arrearages and penalties, in additional to the 1.5 million dollars paid in current withholding taxes paid over the six years I stayed and “played”. I chose to stay, even knowing that the likelihood was that it would ruin me financially.

If I was irresponsible, I would have walked away from the home and family when my wife said she wanted a divorce. I could have gone immediately to an attorney and negotiated the lowest child support that I could. Considering my earnings then and now, my child support based on Ohio’s formula would be less than 25% of what I now pay. Instead, I agreed that my children need support and have given 100% of my earnings while in seminary, and after, to that purpose. I do not regret this in any way shape or form, but will argue vehemently that if I had done otherwise, my income, lifestyle and credit rating would have benefited to my children’s detriment.

Additionally, to the erroneous notion that credit report and crime rate are somehow related, I beg to differ. In the continuing battle between credit reporting agencies, insurance companies and consumer advocacy groups, there has yet to be research that shows any link between poor credit and accidents, or poor credit and crime. As it stands, I applaud the arguments made by several consumer advocacy groups that requiring credit reports for employment serves to continue to allow businesses to exercise classism, racism and sexism through means that do not allow the job applicants any redress.

Page 13 of the State of Wisconsin’s Resource Guide for Conducting Interviews states, “It is a Civil Rights violation to refuse to hire an individual if the refusal is based even in part on the person's poor credit rating”. This report can be accessed at http://oser.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=1816. This citation is not included to insinuate any threat, but to simply show that even government entities are becoming cautious about the use of credit ratings for employment considerations. Credit ratings simply do not correlate to overall responsibility, work ethic or social ethic. The ratio continues to be that those with more resources and less need score higher on the credit reports than those with fewer resources and more need.

Lastly, even if poor credit worthiness did correlate to increased likelihood of unethical or illegal behavior, which it does not, my situation in past years would have already put me in the position to commit violations of ethics and/or law. During my time in the seminary, I have been poorer and more in need than at any time in the previous decades and, as treasurer, have had ready access to funds of ABC Presbyterian Church (not real name) with which I could have absconded. My behavior, as I believe Rev P.H. will affirm, has always shown the highest integrity, honor and trustworthiness.

These are the reasons for which I find a credit report as a prerequisite for ministry a personal insult, as well as an insult to my sense of Christian ethics. I will allow the John Knox Presbytery to use a credit report with the caveat that the permission is given under protest.

[Daniel]

Andrew- If I may comment on your letter, I would advise you to rewrite this line:

since this presbytery seems to believe that a credit rating equates with the spiritual gifts needed in ministry,

This is an antagonistic statement. And you don't want to be antagonistic during this process. Truthful, full of passion, direct? Yes. Antagonistic? No. I don't see how that can help you.

Likewise, I would delete the word 'insult' in the last paragraph and the sentiment that accompanies it. It is enough to state your reasons for not wanting to give your credit rating but quite another matter to give the governing body the sense that you are personally insulted by their request. You don't need to give them reasons to piss them off.

The more dispassionate you can be in this letter, the better.

[NathanATX]

I am about four years away from entering the ordination process. I'll most likely begin seminary in about a year.

It's important for me to have a strong credit report (not there yet, but working on it) because I want to have as little stress about money and obligations as possible. I want to be focused on ministry and I want to be able to follow where God leads without financial constraints.

Today, if I wanted to travel to Brazil and help develop schools & programs for orphanages... I couldn't do it because I have lots of bills to pay and couldn't afford the six months to several years with no income.

I'm also actively developing separate income streams so that I won't be financially dependent on a church. I'm building my investment/finance business, I'm writing a book, I'm developing a public speaking career, etc.

...

I definitely don't think a good credit report should be criteria for ministry... because even now, and my credit report isn't great, I know I'm having a big impact in the world as I answer God's call... but I see how it would be an asset.

[andrewlittle]

Nathan,

I really do think, that given the circumstances to do so, preparing for ministry financially is very important. Kudos to you.

That is a far cry, however, from requiring that people have a good credit standing as a criteria for ministry - as you also stated.

Considering that over 70% of new ministers are second-career, many of whom have existing family obligations, and all of whom have histories, it is inconceivable that financial stability can be used as a barometer of suitability. From knowing seminarians at three institutions, and listening to their stories, I know that well over half of them could not pass muster on a credit report.

If any judicatory was going to use credit history as a deciding factor, the time would be at the beginning of the process - not at end, after they have incurred yet more debt in the education process.

What would the state of the church be if only people who were financially independent could minister?

The mission trip to Brazil, as an example, is not just the lone act of the independent missionary (forget the negative image that word conjures up), but the collective effort of the community that sends him/her, as well. Having financial support is the only way some people can engage in that kind of effort, but it does not indicate less ethical or spiritual maturity.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Nathan,

I really do think, that given the circumstances to do so, preparing for ministry financially is very important. Kudos to you.

That is a far cry, however, from requiring that people have a good credit standing as a criteria for ministry - as you also stated.

Considering that over 70% of new ministers are second-career, many of whom have existing family obligations, and all of whom have histories, it is inconceivable that financial stability can be used as a barometer of suitability. From knowing seminarians at three institutions, and listening to their stories, I know that well over half of them could not pass muster on a credit report.

If any judicatory was going to use credit history as a deciding factor, the time would be at the beginning of the process - not at end, after they have incurred yet more debt in the education process.

What would the state of the church be if only people who were financially independent could minister?

The mission trip to Brazil, as an example, is not just the lone act of the independent missionary (forget the negative image that word conjures up), but the collective effort of the community that sends him/her, as well. Having financial support is the only way some people can engage in that kind of effort, but it does not indicate less ethical or spiritual maturity.

I see what you're saying...

After all nuns & priests in the Catholic church often take vows of poverty.

And being sent by a community is a powerful thing...