When Religion Goes Bad

[SolInvictus]

WOW TJ - you "hit the nail on the head." I agree w/ you.

[pnggrad79]

Amen TJ!

[NonLemming]

Originally Posted by revtj

I really do think America has failed to try to understand the religious meaning of Islam for its people. I think we bombed them before we tried to understand what is sacred to them and why, and how we could respect that and have dialogue with them.

I would wager that if we had done that, rather than bombing first, the cartoons would not have made as much difference to them.

They see us as infidels who bomb, torture, spray phosphorous on women and children, which we do; and they think it is Islam we hate because for them there is no secular/sacred distinction between the state and religion.

It should be incredible that America of all places would underestimate the meaning and power religion holds in their lives. Unfortunately, we can't turn back now, so we are helping the whole world to regress into caveman (fight or flight) mentality.

I know the neo-cons think I want to offer terrorists therapy and talk it over. It's not the terrorists who need the therapy and talking, it was the current administration in Washington that was/is blinded by christian imperialism. We are the most powerful nation in the world. We have an obligation to respect their religion and try to understand it, even if it cuts into our profit margin.

Why do we act like we don't have christian terrorists in America? What is the KKK? Who shot Harvey Milk? Who killed Matthew Shepherd? Who blew up Federal buildings in Oklahoma? Who called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez? Who argued for the right to continue torturing prisoners? Who signed the McCain Amendment with a caveat invoking unitary executive power?

America needs to repent and get right with God AND Allah!

Excellent points, revtj! I think you hit the nail on the head. The publication of pictures showing our hillbilly womenfolk pointing and taunting at naked male Islamists was probably the last straw for them. Abu Grahib was the closest example of "sodomy" that we have in modern times. The fact that this was perpetrated by those representing a "Christian nation" (although that is a great misconception) did nothing for our reputation in the world. We may never fix the problem we caused in our lifetime, but the work needs to begin here at home.

[revtj]

Non (can I call you that, I feel like I know you now?!!! ) --

You are so right. This mess will probably not be cleaned up for 25 years, and look how few days it took to get it started! sheez, louise! We who love peace & justice are in for a lot of hard work!

[baraka]

someone said that a sense of humor is a sense of proportion, and i think most of you (some of you?) would agree that the response to these cartoons is WAAAAAYYYY out of proportion to their intent and actual content.

has anyone seen the recent albert brooks movie "looking for comedy in the muslim world"? i haven't, but want to. it took quite a mensch to even attempt such a film in these times, so kudos to albert for doing it. obviously if one does look for comedy in the muslim world, the funny pages are not the place to search.

yet -- there MUST be such things as satire, farce & indeed, ALL forms of comedy in the muslim world. why do we only hear and feel only the rage?

[Zerbie]

Baraka poses an interesting question - why do we see anger and rage? Well, I'm abysmally uninformed about Muslim worldview, etc., but perhaps someone else can address whether Muslims, as a group, are being pressured into anger by some fanatical leaders in much the same way that many Christians in America are being pressured to anger by certain 'Christian' leaders. . . .all that stuff about Christians being persecuted and discriminated against for their Christian values. . .are Muslims being told regularly the same sorts of things? They viewed the cartoons as symptomatic of some sort of deep assault on them. The anger level worldwide seems to be increasing, not just among Muslims, but they are being perhaps the most obvious example at this very moment.

[baraka]

it was only a couple of months ago that "paris was burning" (no, not paris hilton) during weeks of fierce riots in predominantly muslim neighborhoods.

at the time, the situation of undertrodden muslim "ghetto" youth seemed somewhat analogous to that of the black community in the u.s. during the '60s. france now has a 5-10% muslim population. the u.s. has black population of around 12%, if i recall.

are there other similarities/comparisons? does this have any bearing on the recent rioting in response to the danish cartoons? what about in countries where islam is the majority religion? is the world's muslim populace "downtrodden"? again, i ask: whence the rage?

[Daniel]

While American's may not understand the meaning of Islam, conservative practitioners of Islam in Iraq seem to have a clear understanding of their religion: how to use one's religion to kill in the name of God.


http://365gay.com/opinion/besen/besen.htm

With the American invasion having created a vacuum of viciousness, the murderous Mullahs have gladly stepped in to fill the void. London activist Peter Tatchell revealed on the web-site Iraqi LGBT, which monitors the condition of gay Iraqis, the extent of the horror for all Iraqi citizens under control of the Ayatollahs:

"Parts of Iraq, including some Baghdad neighborhoods, are now under the de facto control of Taliban-style fundamentalist militias," wrote Tatchell. "They enforce a savage interpretation of Sharia law, summarily executing people for 'crimes' like listening to western pop music, wearing shorts or jeans, drinking alcohol, selling videos, working in a barber's shop, homosexuality, dancing, having a Sunni name, adultery and, in the case of women, not being veiled or walking in the street unaccompanied by a male relative."

Tatchell goes on to report that these zealots are zeroing in on anyone who appears to be gay. He paints a portrait of a nation where homosexuals are routinely blackmailed, hunted like wild game and barbarically raped and riddled with bullets. Even families are sometimes harassed and threatened if they refuse to rat gay family members out of hiding. Here is an excerpt from the Iraqi LGBT website:

"The father of 23 year old Baghdad arts student, Karzan, has been told by militias that his son has been sentenced to death for being gay. If his father refuses to hand over Karzan for execution, the militia has threatened to kill the family one by one. This has already happened to Bashar, 34, an actor. Because his parents refuse to reveal his hiding place, the Badr militia murdered two of his family members in retribution."

http://iraqilgbtuk.blogspot.com/

[Zerbie]

Yes!!! I've been hearing these same stories. . .

It's beyond any ability to cope with. I joined Amnesty International a while ago, just wanting to feel like I at least did *something*, even if as small as signing up for a group.

These stories Daniel, they are the stuff of nightmares.

[Daniel]

Zerbie- The mind goes numb when you read stuff like this. And contrary to announcements made today, things are not getting better in Iraq.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwash...y/15453716.htm

In hopes of furthering that debate, this week I asked more than a dozen top Army and Marine Corps generals - active duty and retired, dissidents and administration loyalists - to address what we should do now in Iraq.

All of them agreed that America's strategy and tactics in Iraq have failed, and that President Bush's policy of "staying the course" in Iraq isn't likely to produce anything but more frustration, more and greater problems for the United States in a dangerous world, and more and bloodier surprises for the 135,000 American troops in Iraq.

--------

"The problem thus far, as you know, has been lack of serious planning, poor selection of people in charge ... screwed-up assessments and assumptions, no building of international and regional cooperation, trust in non-credible exiles and too much spin and ad hoc-ery," said retired Marine Gen. Tony Zinni, who formerly headed the U.S. Central Command, with responsibility for 32 nations, including Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bush and company are like a bunch of guys who got lost driving and are too proud to get out and ask for directions. Pure ideological hubris.

I've gone politcial with this post- sorry about that- not my usual avenue of expression- but I believe there is a direct connection between our failed policies and the actions of radical Muslims. We're created more of a mess than existed before. I do not see any good coming out of this. One does need a crystal ball to see where matters are headed.