Is hate learned?

[Dash]

Originally Posted by Progo35

From my experience, hate is both learned and present in everyone at different levels at birth. For instance, some people seem to enjoy hurting others. There is no reason for it, they do not have a history of abuse, they are not mentally ill...they just derive a sick kind of joy from humiliating, abusing, and harming others. In support of this hypothesis, I once asked a peer why she and others were calling me a retard, destroying my stuff, throwing rocks, and worse. She said, "Because it's fun and it's funny, and it's never going to stop!" I'm not exaggerating, those were her words.

When I was young, it was much easier to forgive people and love them, to the point that I felt I posessed almost supernatural compassion for others, despite standing up to what they were doing. Unfortunately, as I've gotten older, constantly doing this has worn on me to the point that I have very intense bouts of anger that are ultimately self-destructive. On the other hand, I've done this because I've experienced that certain people do not respond to compassion-they need a good kick in the pants through the threat of legal action. But, this doesn't have to poison our relationships with God: as another user pointed out, "that isn't me."

I agree with the both/and position.

As I experience my own hatred (and the struggle therewith), it rises up from the feeling of helplessness against insurmountable, implacable, unyielding opposition. I feel it most keenly when thinking about how those who stand against gltb folk speak so many untruths about us, refuse to listen to our truth, deny justice, and push us away from the table.

It's my frustration of being unable to touch their soul...to reach them...that actually turns into hatred and the desire to hurt and punish and reject.

Love rejected often ferments into poison. The capacity and natural process is within us....but we also pour that scalding draught into the mouths of our families, our neighbors, and our communities.

[BrentRichards]

I can certainly believe that hate itself doesn't have to be learned ... I do in fact believe in the existence of a "sin nature" as historic Christianity has affirmed. However, learning is critical: We may not have to learn HOW to hate, but we do learn WHO to hate. And, more importantly, I believe we can learn (with God's grace) how NOT to hate.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by Dash

Love rejected often ferments into poison. The capacity and natural process is within us....but we also pour that scalding draught into the mouths of our families, our neighbors, and our communities.

How beautifully said!

[tdogg]

It would be fascinating to know for sure how much a child will pick up while in the womb. Not only in regards to the mother's diet (and possible both parents prior to fertilization), but in attitude and mental/emotional health as well. I would venture to guess if the mother and even the father were hateful, violent or even enduring a brief period of depression or anxiety where they might have those feelings, it would be in some way absorbed by the baby the mother was carrying. Still leans towards 'learned' or at least 'environment'.

Zoom87, not everyone on these forums believes that babies are born steeped in sin. Just because that's what you believe, doesn't make it true. And, are you saying that hate comes naturally for you?

[tdogg]

Hate is born of fear....

If we are born in a state of fear (for our safety, our needs being met, our lives, love) then yes, we would hate if we didn't get what we were afraid of not getting.

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by tdogg

It would be fascinating to know for sure how much a child will pick up while in the womb. Not only in regards to the mother's diet (and possible both parents prior to fertilization), but in attitude and mental/emotional health as well. I would venture to guess if the mother and even the father were hateful, violent or even enduring a brief period of depression or anxiety where they might have those feelings, it would be in some way absorbed by the baby the mother was carrying. Still leans towards 'learned' or at least 'environment'.

Zoom87, not everyone on these forums believes that babies are born steeped in sin. Just because that's what you believe, doesn't make it true. And, are you saying that hate comes naturally for you?

I admit that I'm a sinner. I admit that at times I hate people. I'm honest with myself. However, I'm not going to allow sin to rule my life. I've set aside the old sinful nature and have put on the New Self, which is enriched with the Holy Spirit. I turn from my sin and look towards Christ and the grace that He has given me. He has given me the strength to move on and do His good work.


Tdog, just like everybody else, I put down my answer to the question: Is hate learned?

[Progo35]

I think the "Original Sin" argument for man being born into sin is generally a pretty fundamental aspect of understanding WHY Christ had to die. I've gradually come to accept this, while maintaining my belief that some people are predisposed to love, while others are predisposed to hatred. But, deep down, there is, I believe, an ugly, sinful tendency to celebrate other people's demise-I have felt it myself when my anger towards other individuals has reached its limit. For instance, once, I was sitting at a public computer looking for a document I had left on the hardrive. While I was doing this, I noticed a paper written by my former best friend's fiance, someone who had destroyed our relationship by telling my friend how to think and respond to me. He was emotionally, verbally and even physically abusive when he wanted to drop me in a dark parking lot in the middle of the night because I told him to stop saying nasty things about me. My friend and another girl who were in the car did nothing to come to my defense, and over time my friend blamed that incident on me, and our relationship of 20 years was destroyed.

So, you can imagine that I have a lot of anger towards this person, so when I saw this guy's paper on the computer's hard drive, I was seized with a deep compulsion to delete his work. Now, normally, when I think about doing something nasty to someone, it is a passing thought-I don't really want to do it. But in this case, I WANTED TO DO IT. I didn't, and my feelings were spurned by an intense losss caused by this person, but I feel this is an example of something in me, deep down, that is contrary to God's will. Of course, God demands justice-but not that way. And, I think that if hate were learned, my friend would have been able to stick to her principles and would not have betrayed me the way she did: I know that she knows better than that, but she is too weak to stand by her beliefs.

[BrentRichards]

Perhaps it is worth giving a brief (very brief) statement of what original sin does and doesn't mean. I do not claim here that all Christians agree with this definition, or that this is what all people who believe in original sin believe, but I think it is a fairly orthodox, evangelical view (and it's what I mean when I use the term original sin, anyway):


It does NOT mean we're all bad, any more than we're all good.
It DOES mean that we have the potential for great evil, as well as for great good.

It does NOT mean we are as bad as we could possibly be.
It DOES mean that there is no area of our life untouched by selfish, ungodly motives and desires.

It does NOT mean we are incapable of doing good.
It DOES mean we are often not inclined to do even the good we know.

It does NOT mean we are being blamed for something our ancestors did.
It DOES mean that like begets like, and being born into a sinful fallen world, we too are tainted with sin.

It does NOT mean that people are not capable of being "good" in a moral and ethical sense.
It DOES mean that we as Christians believe that we can never be "good enough" to earn our way to a perfect God (we also believe that we don't HAVE TO earn our way ... that's what the life, death, and resurrection of Christ was all about!)

It does NOT mean that the "whole world is going to hell in a handbasket."
It DOES mean that things are NOT THE WAY THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.

It is NOT a doctrine of human worthlessness.
It IS a doctrine of human imperfection, and yes, even of human evil (which we can't deny exists in history!).


This said, I don't believe that we need to learn how to sin (by hating or otherwise) ... it is natural to us. But it is no less natural to us to seek truth and good (Some brands of Christians will disagree with me on that one). We live in tension between the two... As Augustine said, "The heart of man is restless, O God, until we find our rest in Thee."

Helpful at all? Dave and Andrew, do I get to stay in the Calvin Camp?

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Tdog, just like everybody else, I put down my answer to the question: Is hate learned?

My nature, I believe, is not towards natural hate. It's extremely difficult (if not impossible) for me to hold a grudge. I'm basically a trusting caring person unless I learn to do otherwise with someone. I can't think of anyone that I could say that I "hate". I could think of things tho, like:

the death penalty, people who are disrespectful to those I care about, people who harm other people or animals, people who disrespect nature, injustice, poverty, hunger, disease, just to name a few

But other people? Well, the closest I've come to 'hate' recently is watching The Eyes of Tammy Faye, and listening to Jerry Falwell's lies and deceit. He's no longer with us, but dang I was pissed at him. This was just last weekend. Yeah, some of those conservative, right winger, religious fundamentals can rile me up a bit. Yet, I wouldn't call it hate. I wish them no physical or emotional harm.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Tdog, just like everybody else, I put down my answer to the question: Is hate learned?

My nature is not towards natural hate. It's extremely difficult (if not impossible) for me to hold a grudge. I'm basically a trusting caring person unless I learn to do otherwise with someone. I can't think of anyone that I could say that I "hate". I could think of things tho, like:

the death penalty, people who are disrespectful to those I care about, people who harm other people or animals, people who disrespect nature, injustice, poverty, hunger, disease, just to name a few

But other people? Well, the closest I've come to 'hate' recently is watching The Eyes of Tammy Faye, and listening to Jerry Falwell's lies and deceit. He's no longer with us, but dang I was pissed at him. This was just last weekend. Yeah, some of those conservative, right winger, religious fundamentals can rile me up a bit. Yet, I wouldn't call it hate. I wish them no physical or emotional harm.

That is not to say I don't get angry sometimes. But anger and hate aren't necessarily a joint commodity.

[Dash]

Originally Posted by tdogg

...watching The Eyes of Tammy Faye...

Dear Tammy's not doin' so good these days.

[DanaH]

I don’t have an anthropology major, I’m a Christian but I can’t quote scripture and verse, and I don’t think I’ve gone over to the dark side. But I’ll throw my 2 cents worth in….

The question is, Is hate learned or are we born with an inclination toward it?

Without going into all the issues raised here, I’m going to refer to a lesson my mother taught me as a young child that has always seemed to ring true.

It takes an adult to hate. Children on a playground can hate each other one moment, and be off playing the next.

As we get older, we learn to separate, judge, categorize, and learn to hate. As officer of several sports organizations, I often said that if the adults got along half as well as the kids, we all would have had a much better time.

Thanks Mom. I love you, even though you don’t yet know Dana.

On the other hand, as parent of 3 children, I don’t agree we are born a (complete) blank slate. I don’t think we are pre-destined for anything, but I do know that each of my daughters had a personality from day one, and those personalities are still there today as my oldest turns 22.

I know that this is only my perspective and that even within the US there are many cultures and backgrounds. I admit that my background was middle class white rural Americal. Throughout my travels, US to Europoe to Asia, I have met people from many social classes and beliefs, but I only have my childhood to reflect on as a reference for born vs. learned.

Good questions – I love soul force.

Oh, by the way, my vote is for learned!!

[alakazoom87]

I love Paul;

Romans 7:14-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[Pablo Rafael]

Matthew,

It is interesting that of all the sections you choose to post from Romans you choose one that is all LAW. Your post seems to be pretty much all LAW I see very little GOSPEL.

(I define Gospel as what God has done and does for us, it is what saves us. I define law as all connected with what we do, not just regulations but in living lives to God's glory BECAUSE He has saved us.)

When I look at the writings of Saint Paul I see an overwhelming statement of the GOSPEL. In fact the clearest message we have about the Gospel is from the writings of Saint Paul. When the early church wanted to require that the gentiles follow the Jewish practices as prescribed in the Bible, it was Paul who focused the church on the saving Gospel message rather than on the regulations. It is Paul who says, "For by grace you are saved through faith, it is not of yourselves, so that no one can boast." Also Paul, "For I am persuaded that ... nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

To be a witness to Christ we must show forth the Gospel. The Gospel is the good news that though we are sinners, God loves us enough to shed His own blood to save us. We need to show forth that love to others we meet. As Paul again says, "If I have not love I am nothing."

I love the writings of Paul as well for in them the Gospel message is presented in its clearest form.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

Matthew,

It is interesting that of all the sections you choose to post from Romans you choose one that is all LAW. Your post seems to be pretty much all LAW I see very little GOSPEL.

(I define Gospel as what God has done and does for us, it is what saves us. I define law as all connected with what we do, not just regulations but in living lives to God's glory BECAUSE He has saved us.)

When I look at the writings of Saint Paul I see an overwhelming statement of the GOSPEL. In fact the clearest message we have about the Gospel is from the writings of Saint Paul. When the early church wanted to require that the gentiles follow the Jewish practices as prescribed in the Bible, it was Paul who focused the church on the saving Gospel message rather than on the regulations. It is Paul who says, "For by grace you are saved through faith, it is not of yourselves, so that no one can boast." Also Paul, "For I am persuaded that ... nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

To be a witness to Christ we must show forth the Gospel. The Gospel is the good news that though we are sinners, God loves us enough to shed His own blood to save us. We need to show forth that love to others we meet. As Paul again says, "If I have not love I am nothing."

I love the writings of Paul as well for in them the Gospel message is presented in its clearest form.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

I posted the section when Paul talks about his sinful nature.

To be a witness to Christ we must show forth the Gospel.

I agree, however, do we forfeit the law in the process?

We might have to start a new thread if we continue this topic

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by DanaH

I

The question is, Is hate learned or are we born with an inclination toward it?

Without going into all the issues raised here, I’m going to refer to a lesson my mother taught me as a young child that has always seemed to ring true.

It takes an adult to hate. Children on a playground can hate each other one moment, and be off playing the next.

As we get older, we learn to separate, judge, categorize, and learn to hate.


On the other hand, as parent of 3 children, I don’t agree we are born a (complete) blank slate. I don’t think we are pre-destined for anything, but I do know that each of my daughters had a personality from day one, and those personalities are still there today as my oldest turns 22.

I only have my childhood to reflect on as a reference for born vs. learned.


Oh, by the way, my vote is for learned!!

Dana,

Will you come play with me?

Seriously, you have no idea how much you just taught me with that post. It was one of those lightning flashes of "I get it!" when I read the above.

Part of the reason for such diversity in answers to this thread seems to be whether we are considering hate to be a flash-in-the-pan emotion, or a sustained malice over time. I take the word to mean the latter. Emotions are not hate. Actions are. And I think there may be a point at which actions can be insensitive, stupid, selfish, but not yet hateful, and a point at which they cross over into hate. Haven't given the matter much study, but it seems so.

Like you, I based my answer to this question on my childhood. Your mom is right: it does take an adult to hate. I didn't know that until just now.

Hey Dana, I hope your mom gets to meet the real you. You seem like a truly wonderful person, with profound intelligence and perspective on life. I hope your mom sees this side of you.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I agree, however, do we forfeit the law in the process?

FORFEIT? The law has not been forfeited, it has been FULFILLED. Christ's work was COMPLETE and SUFFICIENT ... he didn't just give us a "boost" so we could climb up ourselves ... The law only brings death. Paul's argument in Romans is detailed and developed. As Pablo suggests, you are only pointing to the "problem" section of his argument, and failing to move on to the solution part, which is the only reason Paul lays out the problem at all ... so he can point to the wonder of the solution in Christ!

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

This said, I don't believe that we need to learn how to sin (by hating or otherwise) ... it is natural to us. But it is no less natural to us to seek truth and good (Some brands of Christians will disagree with me on that one). We live in tension between the two... As Augustine said, "The heart of man is restless, O God, until we find our rest in Thee."

Helpful at all? Dave and Andrew, do I get to stay in the Calvin Camp?

Get to STAY??? My gosh, Brent, you get to be the President of the Calvin Club. Nicely done... I'm saving your post to my hard drive even as we speak.

I would be interested in hearing (reading) how you seperate the doctrine of Original sin from a literal reading of the Garden of Eden narrative? (maybe you don't see the need? I don't know) But how do you understand Orginal Sinfulness if there was no LITERAL Fall? If you read my anthropology post above you know that I believe that we humans evolved to be the people we are (evolution being a tool in the hands of a sovereign God, of course, but evolution nonetheless). I don't believe that the world was created in seven literal days or that the world is only 4,000 plus years old. So how do I make sense of the Fall in that context? I DO believe in a Fallen world, but I'm not at all sure HOW I do. can you help me, Oh Calvinist demi-god?

Dave

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Get to STAY??? My gosh, Brent, you get to be the President of the Calvin Club. Nicely done... I'm saving your post to my hard drive even as we speak.

I would be interested in hearing (reading) how you seperate the doctrine of Original sin from a literal reading of the Garden of Eden narrative? (maybe you don't see the need? I don't know) But how do you understand Orginal Sinfulness if there was no LITERAL Fall? If you read my anthropology post above you know that I believe that we humans evolved to be the people we are (evolution being a tool in the hands of a sovereign God, of course, but evolution nonetheless). I don't believe that the world was created in seven literal days or that the world is only 4,000 plus years old. So how do I make sense of the Fall in that context? I DO believe in a Fallen world, but I'm not at all sure HOW I do. can you help me, Oh Calvinist demi-god?

Dave

This clearly calls for a new thread. It may just be you, me, and Andrew, but we three "frozen chosen" can hairsplit to our hearts' content over there...

[DanaH]

Geez, Or should I say "Jesus"?

First of all, Thank you Zerbie, you made me cry. (in a good way)

It looks like we're doing the same thing Jesus was frustrated with his followers for. Trying to read the bible (or at that time what was the current belief or religious law) like it was a law book, and decide just exactly how everything should work.

We will never finish that conversation, it's been going on for several thousand years.

I do know that in Christianity, children are innocent. If Hate is a sin, then a child can't hate? Jesus said (and I'm sure one of you will give me the verse number and correct me on the exact quote) suffer the little children to come unto me.

In my book, Jesus was the first rebel in christianity. He was kind of saying, hey, don't you get it, love each other!!

If only we could be like little children and come to christ with an open heart and mind.

I could be up to 4 cents worth by now?

Thx