What if Missionaries came in to your house to protest? Would you have them arrested?

[JacoBison]

After the arrests of Riders at OBU this week, I collected as much news and information as I could in one day and sent the story out to as many people as I could, especially other alumni like myself. The report that I composed is also posted in the Activism Forum. Here is one response I got from sending the message to alumni on myspace:


GOOD - Christianity and Gay just dont go together...What would Gays do if Christians protested in their house?

I think that is a really good question that we should ponder. We all have experienced Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon missionaries knocking on the door, but what if they walked in your house uninvited? Would you call the police and have them arrested for trespassing? What if they took the position that they disagree with your values and want to come in your house and talk about it and will come back every year until you change your mind and accept their morals? The distinction between public and private property is an important one. Even Fred Phelps doesn't walk onto private property.

By the way, I support the Equality Riders, the Ghandi/King model and unlike the responder quoted above, I think Christianity and Gay do go together just as Christianity and Left-handedness go together. But I think the question warrants dialog, because unlike civil rights marches in the South, boycotting salt in India and anti-war rallies today, the Riders are staging their protest on private property. How would you feel if protesters came into your house?

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

By the way, I support the Equality Riders, the Ghandi/King model and unlike the responder quoted above, I think Christianity and Gay do go together just as Christianity and Left-handedness go together. But I think the question warrants dialog, because unlike civil rights marches in the South, boycotting salt in India and anti-war rallies today, the Riders are staging their protest on private property. How would you feel if protesters came into your house?

These schools are not homes. These schools receive public monies for the most part and they are teaching people that LGBTs are not equal and do not deserve the same basic human rights as they enjoy.

Like the KKK, they promote a view of superiority over other people. Just as white skin privelege must be ended so too, must heterosexual privelege as well as class privelege be challenged. Our creator made us all in his/her image.

[JacoBison]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

These schools are not homes. These schools receive public monies for the most part... Like the KKK, they promote a view of superiority over other people.

No, OBU does not receive public money. It is a private university and all of its financial support comes from private donations through the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma, individuals and tuition. It is in fact private property. This is true of BYU, Union, Liberty, Notre Dame and I suspect most if not all of the colleges on the tour.

And the KKK comparison is outrageous - the college has never lynched anyone.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

GOOD - Christianity and Gay just dont go together...What would Gays do if Christians protested in their house?

I think that is a really good question that we should ponder.

Really, you do? People setting foot on the grounds of a college or university is the same as stepping into your house? It strikes me as a very distorted sense of proportion and scale - or an extremely weak reactionary defense. Quite irrational, either way.

We all have experienced Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon missionaries knocking on the door, but what if they walked in your house uninvited? Would you call the police and have them arrested for trespassing?

Like most people, I would ask them to get out of my house. It would show a distinct lack of social skills and respect for that to happen. And yes, I would call the police if they refused.

That being said, how is that even remotely like the E-Riders? They ddn't go uninvited into student rooms - they didn't go to the president's residence and barge in - they didn't even barge into anything that any rational person would consider "personal space".

What if they took the position that they disagree with your values and want to come in your house and talk about it and will come back every year until you change your mind and accept their morals? The distinction between public and private property is an important one. Even Fred Phelps doesn't walk onto private property.

Actually it happens more than once a year - to me at least. Sometimes I let them in, sometimes I don't. Either way we talk about the differences between us. Pretty much the same as when people come onto these boards, actually.

And I do beg your pardon, but I have witnessed the Phelps gang block the entrance to a UCC church until asked to move by the police. The whole time they were holding offensive signs and saying crude and innacurate remarks with their backs against the church doors. It might help if you picked someone - well, more sane, to compare to. For now I won't rocket off into a string of diatribe because you likened the E-Riders to a hate mongering group of nut-jobs.

By the way, I support the Equality Riders, the Ghandi/King model and unlike the responder quoted above, I think Christianity and Gay do go together just as Christianity and Left-handedness go together. But I think the question warrants dialog, because unlike civil rights marches in the South, boycotting salt in India and anti-war rallies today, the Riders are staging their protest on private property. How would you feel if protesters came into your house?

Forgive me if I doubt either your word or your ability to discern logic. If that question deserves discussion in your mind, I hardly see how the above can be correct.

The E-Riders protested on side-walks when they were barred from stepping onto college property, and after a period of time some stepped onto the property knowing they would get arrested. Read your history, will you. The same thing happened over and over again in the other cases you cited. It's how the media get involved and the issues are raised to a larger audience.

Where your argument breaks down, still, is in likening a college to a house. Even if the college is funded with no other governement funds, some of the students receive student loans, guaranteed and partially funded by the government - using tax funds paid by all U.S. citizens regardless of sexuality. Those funds, by freeing up other moneys for upkeep and property maintenance, enable the colleges to exist, and keep them as affordable as they are for students. On top of that, unlike private housing, the property and income of the college is tax-free as a non-profit corporation. Lastly, stepping onto semi-private grounds is not the same as barging into a home. The comparison is ludicrous in the least, intensional dissimulation being most likely.

[u-dog]

Christians DO protest at people's homes. We had a friend who was hounded for nearly a year because she was Executive Director of a Planned Parenthood Clinic. Anti-abortion Protesters stood in front of her house and chanted and occasionally committed vandalism. She lived in fear much of the time. creating that FEAR is was their primary intention in the hopes that they could force her to step down. She did not.

Contrast that with the quiet and respectful attitude of the Soul force Riders please.

While these colleges and universities may TECHNICALLY be "private" property, they are in fact public instintutions whether they accept public money or not. They function as a part of the "Polis" just as a church or a department store or a restaurant does. When civil rights activists conducted sit-ins at "whites-only" lunch counters in the south they were on private property but were still occupying public space.

People gather at these colleges to do PUBLIC things like worship, study, advocate attitudes and practices that affect society at large, attend performances, plays, lectures, and concerts. the Equality Riders go onto this private/public space knowing that they may be arrested. They go knowing that whether they are welcomed or arrested that the attitudes of these institutions are being raised up for public scrutiny. this is appropriate and necessary, just as it was appropriate in the South in the 1950's

No one's private sanctuary is being invaded. Student dormitories are not being targeted, nor are the homes of faculty, administrators, or board members.

To liken these acts of Civil Disobedience to Home invasion is JUST PLAIN SILLY !!!!!!! (Ok, I should have said something like "specious" or "bogus" or "Sophist" but sometimes you need to call SILLINESS by its true name)

Dave

[JacoBison]

WOW, you guys need to calm down and cut back on the insults. First of all, read the link in my first post. Read my letter to the OBU student paper asking students to welcome the Riders on to campus. Secondly, I am NOT making any argument, I posed a question. It wasn't even my question, I was just reposting it here. I did not answer that question for myself nor have I presented an opinion on it. I sure hope the Riders are not as reactionary and insulting as you are, because your post is not dialog, its attack.

[u-dog]

... if we got a little hot under the collar (actually I didn't ... it was Andy ... he can never hold his water in these situations. Forgive him.)

but you DID bring someone elses silly argument into the forum and suggested that you thought it was worth considering. For you to do that and then disavow any responsibility for it's silliness is like bringing dog poop into the house and then disclaiming responsibility because you didn't actually "poop" it.

I appreciated what you put on your myspace and then posted here. I'm glad you did that. Thats all good. I don't even mind your sharing the poster's question with us.

But... its still silly.

You don't like "Grey's anatomy" and you said so bluntly and pissed a couple people off mildly -- they'll survive. I agree with you about that show... but I still like to watch it. We scream at the characters to "get therapy! and to "Stop talking dirty during an operation!" "Get a room" Its all good clean fun.

So is arguing about important stuff like civil rights for GLBT folks

[andrewlittle]

Actually, I thought my response was quite temporate. Trust me in that, okay, I am quite capable of ranting when I feel inclined. It was out of respect for other things you've posted, that I reserved harsh comment.

Let me see. You claim to support the efforts of E-Riders and Soulforce. Then you post someone else's thoughts, and even state that they deserve consideration. That's sounds like tacit agreement to me.

Then you, not the anonymous person you were quoting, suggested that even Fred Phelps doesn't do what the E-Riders did.

In response to Kara, you got a little hot under the collar yourself, and said her comparison was "outrageous".

E-Riders are worse than Fred Phelps - okay.
Comparing righteous people who consider themselves superior to KKK - outrageous.

I am so very sorry, but I still think you have a distinctly distorted sense of proportion and reality. You seem to recognize in other people those things that you do.

You bring someone else's shit, throw it on the carpet, smear it around and actually add to it with your own by rediculaous comparisons, and then claim it's not your idea and you son't know why we got a tad bristley about it.

Good grief, man, I can't believe you're not bright enough to see a pattern there.

[u-dog]

Take a deep breath. And keep your hands off of my scatalogical metaphors got it? They are copyrighted.

[JacoBison]

Thanks u-dog. :-) Yes, the TV post is an example of my opinion. This post is not.

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Let me see. You claim to support the efforts of E-Riders and Soulforce. Then you post someone else's thoughts, and even state that they deserve consideration. That's sounds like tacit agreement to me.

Dialog by definition is in fact considering other people's thoughts. Tolerance is considering other people's thoughts. Welcoming and affirming is considering other people's thoughts. Listening is considering other people's thoughts. Being open-minded is considering other people's thoughts.

But considering other people's thoughts is NOT tacit agreement. Listening to other point of views and pondering the questions they pose if NOT tacit agreement. If you cannot have a conversation without getting emotional and throwing insults, then you are not following the Ghandi/King model.

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Then you, not the anonymous person you were quoting, suggested that even Fred Phelps doesn't do what the E-Riders did. In response to Kara, you got a little hot under the collar yourself, and said her comparison was "outrageous".E-Riders are worse than Fred Phelps - okay. Comparing righteous people who consider themselves superior to KKK - outrageous.

The distinction is clear to me, let me see if I can explain it to you:

I was not comparing the Riders to Fred Phelps, I was comparing him to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon Missionaries. (side note: to my knowledge, Phelps has not been arrested for trespassing on private property. If I am wrong about that, I have no problem being corrected).

In talking about the "schools" that the Riders visit, Kara stated: "Like the KKK..." She did plainly compare my alma mater to a terrorist organization that used killing and violence to express their position. OBU has never used violence to enforce its policy. Therefore the comparison is outrageous.

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

I am so very sorry, but I still think you have a distinctly distorted sense of proportion and reality. You seem to recognize in other people those things that you do.

You bring someone else's shit, throw it on the carpet, smear it around and actually add to it with your own by rediculaous comparisons, and then claim it's not your idea and you son't know why we got a tad bristley about it.

Good grief, man, I can't believe you're not bright enough to see a pattern there.

Your failure to make the distinction between the comparisons and see a pattern that is not there is not a reflection on my brightness. You have accused me of being irrational, distorted and unable to discern logic and not being bright. I have not made any such personal accusations toward you. If this last post is your idea of an apology, you have a long way to go.

If a Rider was speaking to a student and the student asked: "What would Gays do if Christians protested in their house?" would you then call their question "shit" and "ridiculous?" I hope that you do not represent the leadership of Soulforce because if so, the colleges are absolutely justified in not wanting you to visit.

***

Now, you make an important distinction between "in the home" and "on the grounds." I think that is a valid distinction. Perhaps the person who responded to my myspace message should have wrote "front yard" instead of "house." But I didn't want to misquote him for the sake of having a perfectly fair comparison. But for the sake of argument, lets do it anyway. Forget I used "in the house" and lets use "on the front yard" instead. Like you said, the Riders do not enter the residences or offices.

So, What if Missionaries came on your front yard to protest? If you asked them to leave and they refused, would you call the police?

[Zerbie]

The analogy does not hold. Even moving your theoretical protestors to the front yard leaves a weak analogy. Why? Because central spaces like campus common areas are not private homes. Personal space is not invaded by a protest on a sidewalk outside a public building.

A better analogy might be christian conservatives demonstrating on public school property. Which THEY DO. They are quite insistent that everyone change their values to adhere to their particular understanding of the Bible. I attend graduate school at a public university and at least twice a week in order to reach class I must walk past a "sidewalk preacher" screaming his head off about how we are all destined for hell, and waving about a humongous sign with a list of those hellbound, including: "Uppity women, sodomites, dikes (sic)" and many other insulting epithets. You know what I do? I glance over, sigh, and walk right on past. Before and after class, typically twice a week. I'm free to choose to stop and take it in, or ignore it.

[JacoBison]

Zerbie, like I said in my second post, private colleges are private property. It might be an institutional private property vs. an individual's private property, but nevertheless, the analogy to a home is very fair.

U-dog's comparison to a department store or restaurant is not accurate because they are open to the public, serve the public and pull revenue from the public. OBU students and employees (and I assume every other private college) have to go through an application process before being granted permission to be on campus. They are given photo IDs and thus are entitled to be on that property.

A private college or church does not have to follow anti-discrimination laws in hiring in the same way that a business like a department store does. Separation of Church and State laws keep the government out of the church's business. The only exceptions are safety issues such as fire codes, building inspections, labor laws and so on. The Waco situation for example - the ATF intruded on private church property because there were complaints of safety law violations, pretty serious ones in fact.

A public university is NOT a better analogy because it is a public university, not a private institution.

The Equality Riders are completely aware of this. They knew exactly where the lines were between the public streets and sidewalks and private university property.

[andrewlittle]

Let’s start with the original post.

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Here is one response I got from sending the message to alumni on myspace:
GOOD - Christianity and Gay just dont go together...What would Gays do if Christians protested in their house?

I think that is a really good question that we should ponder. We all have experienced Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon missionaries knocking on the door, but what if they walked in your house uninvited? Would you call the police and have them arrested for trespassing? What if they took the position that they disagree with your values and want to come in your house and talk about it and will come back every year until you change your mind and accept their morals? The distinction between public and private property is an important one. Even Fred Phelps doesn't walk onto private property.

By the way, I support the Equality Riders, the Ghandi/King model and unlike the responder quoted above, I think Christianity and Gay do go together just as Christianity and Left-handedness go together. But I think the question warrants dialog, because unlike civil rights marches in the South, boycotting salt in India and anti-war rallies today, the Riders are staging their protest on private property. How would you feel if protesters came into your house?

“I think this is a really good question” followed up with your examples and then “even Fred Phelps doesn’t…” expresses tacit approval of the original question. You then replied:

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Thanks u-dog. :-) Yes, the TV post is an example of my opinion. This post is not.

If this is not your opinion, you go to great lengths to validate someone else’s. You even stated that you think the Riders were on private property in your original post. What part of this isn’t your opinion?

Originally Posted by JacoBison

I was not comparing the Riders to Fred Phelps, I was comparing him to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon Missionaries.

You stated Phelps doesn’t walk onto private property, followed by the statement that the Riders do. How is that not a comparison?

Originally Posted by JacoBison

In talking about the "schools" that the Riders visit, Kara stated: "Like the KKK..." She did plainly compare my alma mater to a terrorist organization that used killing and violence to express their position. OBU has never used violence to enforce its policy. Therefore the comparison is outrageous.

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Like the KKK, they promote a view of superiority over other people.

Kara did not liken your school to the KKK, she said they had something common with them – namely, “they promote a view of superiority.”
You then responded with:

Originally Posted by JacoBison

And the KKK comparison is outrageous - the college has never lynched anyone.

If Kara had said that the college had lynched somebody, or even that they were terrorists using killing and violence, I would agree that would be outrageous. She did not, however. You, sir, reacted emotionally and with some hostility towards Kara.

Originally Posted by JacoBison

WOW, you guys need to calm down and cut back on the insults. First of all, read the link in my first post. Read my letter to the OBU student paper asking students to welcome the Riders on to campus. Secondly, I am NOT making any argument, I posed a question. It wasn't even my question, I was just reposting it here.I did not answer that question for myself nor have I presented an opinion on it. I sure hope the Riders are not as reactionary and insulting as you are, because your post is not dialog, its attack.

First “insults”. I questioned your sense of proportion and scale; I question whether you can perceive logic or whether you are true to your word. Perhaps I could have chosen better ways of phrasing my doubts about why you posted what you did, but these are hardly insults. U-dog’s violation seems to be his use of the word “silly”.

You use the word outrageous in regard to Kara’s statement, but ours are insults. Proportion seems to be an issue, again.

Originally Posted by JacoBison

If this last post is your idea of an apology, you have a long way to go.

It wasn’t.

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Dialog by definition is in fact considering other people's thoughts. Tolerance is considering other people's thoughts. Welcoming and affirming is considering other people's thoughts. Listening is considering other people's thoughts. Being open-minded is considering other people's thoughts.

Correction – dialogue is engaging in discussion about your own thoughts, not hiding behind someone else’s, adding a considerable amount of your own editorial content, and then disavowing that these in any way represent your own.

Dialogue is honest, forthright, first person. Dissimulation is what I would what you did.

As to the rest of it – it strikes me as absurd. Please feel free to ramble as much as you like and then blame it on someone else.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Zerbie, like I said in my second post, private colleges are private property. It might be an institutional private property vs. an individual's private property, but nevertheless, the analogy to a home is very fair.

.

No. It does not work. A college campus is not analogous to a private residence. They serve entirely different functions.

You don't need to tell me that a private school is private and a public school, public. Obviously. Point being, if students enroll in a private religious-based school out of a preference for that environment over a more "secular worldview," consider that folks such as myself enroll in public institutions for the same reason, inverted. Therefore, the analogy between E Riders visiting a private religious school and a street preacher visiting mine is FAR more apt than comparing a college campus to a private home.

As Andrew points out you spend an inordinate amount of time defending a viewpoint to which you say you do not adhere. All manner of intelligent, thoughtful and reasoned responses were refuted in a tone that to my eye appears disrespectful. I've lost interest in following this particular thread any further as it has become ridiculous.

[JacoBison]

Andrew, your questions have already been answered. Zerbie, I am sorry you don't understand the difference between public and private property.

Let me share my last Thursday with you: First, I called the President of OBU and this is the conversation I had with his secretary:

May I speak to President Brister?

He is in a meeting, may I take a message?

Yes, my name is Jacob Zimmer, I am an OBU alumni, my parents went to OBU, my grandparents went to OBU and my great-grandparents went to OBU. I am calling about the arrests on campus yesterday. I find the actions of the university to be embarrassing, shameful, and deplorable. That visitors were arrested on their way to Chapel is absolutely outrageous.

Would you like to receive a call back?

No thanks, just make sure he gets the message.

How do you spell your last name?

I then called Marty O'Gwynn, the director of Public Relations. I told him the same thing I told the President's secretary. We spoke for over half an hour. He went into detail giving me the play by play of the day.

I then collected all the information I had gathered about that day and spread it all over the internet from emails to family and friends to multiple message boards including this one. I did a myspace search of other OBU alumni and messaged my report to over 100 people. I had a photo job to do that night and I canceled it so that I could tell everyone about the atrocities on Bison Hill.

The next day I got a message back from a guy who I have never met (we were not at OBU at the same time) and he wrote back: " GOOD - Christianity and Gay just dont go together...What would Gays do if Christians protested in their house?"

Well, I don't know what they would do. So I posted the question here. Did people react with an answer? Did dialog occur? Was the Ghandi/King model used? No, no and no. Instead personal insults were thrown at me, people reacted defensively and just argued.

You guys are completely changing my mind about Soulforce and the Equality Ride. If the people on the bus are like you, then they should not be welcomed. Right now I want to email Marty back and tell him: "WOW, you would not believe what these people are like - you were right to have them arrested for trespassing. If the kind of argument I had on line were to happen on campus, it would have been a disaster. Thank God you stopped it before it got out of hand."

Please someone tell me these posters do not represent the riders, please.

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Please someone tell me these posters do not represent the riders, please.

No, these posters do not represent the riders. There are some pretty significant differences between the Equality Ride and this, or any other, web forum.

• The Riders go as a group and can support each other as a group. If one feels threatened or angry, or is just having a bad day, others can help restore him/her to balance before there is an eruption. That kind of support isn't instantly available to a person sitting alone at a computer at home.
• The Riders are chosen for the task and go through non-violence training before setting foot on the bus. The forum is open to anybody, and we have all levels of "practice" of non-violence here. Some people's styles here are not overtly Ghandian but that should not, reasonably, be taken as a measurement of the Ride (just because both are under the Soulforce banner).

So I don't think it's fair to say "these people" when there are totally different dynamics on the Web vs. on the bus.


As to the main topic, I find often that conservatives, not just Christians, have difficulty distinguishing between the ethical and the legal. It seems rather obvious to me that some things are legal but not ethical, while others are ethical but not legal. But, if I had a nickel for every right winger who thought his actions were justified because there's no law or scripture against it, I could quit my job today.

Not a lot of time this morning to analyze in depth, so let me just make a couple of statements and ask if you agree or disagree.

When anti abortion activists protested on the sidewalk in front of the planned parenthood director's home, even if they never left the sidewalk (and, in u-dog's telling, they did not), what they did was legal (because they did not trespass onto private property) but not ethical (because they destroyed the director's feeling of security in her own home). (This is ignoring the vandalism u-dog reported that those protesters committed, which is obviously both illegal and unethical.)

When some of the riders stepped onto University property, what they did was not legal, but it's difficult to argue that this is an ethical violation on the same scale as protesting at someone's home.

If you wish to make such an argument, you have to prove that the laws protecting property rights are as ethically serious as the basic human right to a secure home. I don't believe it's possible to make this argument without making a fool of oneself, but if the fellow who wrote you would like to try, I'd be happy to read it. (You can have a stab at it too, but why, since you already said you don't agree with him.)

In the absence of such an argument, I would have to conclude that it's a red herring to make "public vs. private" the central deciding factor -- and a devious one at that, because it upsets one's moral compass and confuses legality with integrity.

James

[suzer1013]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

No, OBU does not receive public money. It is a private university and all of its financial support comes from private donations through the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma, individuals and tuition.

Just a quick question. Are there no students there, then, that receive federally funded financial aid? If they do, then federal funds are used to pay tuition at that school, and the school does indeed receive public money.

Susan

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Please someone tell me these posters do not represent the riders, please.

O my Jacob you sound like the Pharasee in the temple saying, "thank God, I'm not like this publican."

In my humble opinion, you could use a little Micah in your life at this point and walk humbly with your God. Every one of these posters is a person of deep faith, and I'm proud to be associated with them, just as I am proud to be associated with the Riders. I suggest you take a moment and stop insulting people on this thread.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

Andrew, your questions have already been answered. Zerbie, I am sorry you don't understand the difference between public and private property.





You guys are completely changing my mind about Soulforce and the Equality Ride. If the people on the bus are like you, then they should not be welcomed. Right now I want to email Marty back and tell him: "WOW, you would not believe what these people are like
.

Oh my!! Do you ever read your own posts?!?

[JacoBison]

James, thanks for your post. I have to run to work, so I can't reply in detail now. But thank you.

so let me just make a couple of statements and ask if you agree or disagree.

This is my biggest point: This may come as a great surprise to some of you, but I honestly was putting the question out there to see what kind of answers people had. I was not making a statement and trying to back it up. I was not making an argument at all. On the issue of the question I posed, I do not know yet if I agree or disagree because until he asked me, I had never thought about it. Maybe every other thread by every other poster is making a statement that they believe in and that is why you assumed I was also. It was a question that someone asked me and since I am not a gay man who has had Christians protest in his house, I put the question out here. Instead of pondering the question, you all argued with the messenger. You all failed to take me literally. But you succeeded in ganging up on me and putting me down.

Susan, Yes, there are students there (over 1600) and some if not many of them receive federally funded financial aid. But that aid is given to the student regardless of where they choose to attend college. So since that money comes from the student and is based on their family income, not their choice of college, the government is not giving federal funds directly to the school. Therefore, the university remains a private institution on private property. Here is a comparison: After Katrina I received over $4000 from FEMA. I gave some of that money to my church. But that does not mean that the church is being financially supported by the government and therefore public property.

Kara, you do not know me and have no right to pass judgment on me.