Who are you?

[kara speltz]

I have found this thread a bit disturbning. First because there are assumptions made that surely do not apply to everyone, and secondly because it feels to me like one of our own "family," is telling us that we must change to meet their criteria.

I don't have a profile, because I have never taken the time to post one. I'm a bit technologically impaired when it comes to computers and easily intimadated. But then again, I'm a 69 year old woman, and some of that comes with the "deal," so to speak.

I'm as out as anyone can be. There's absolutely no one who doesn't know that I'm a lesbian. But, I think to make judgments on others about not giving details of their lives is to live in a fantasy that suggests we have nothing to be afraid of.

So, I hope we'll just be willing to let people share what they feel comfortable in sharing and let the rest of it be.

[Rick336]

Zerbie said: "I find a degree of care to be wise. What if one of the anonymous posters here has a neighbor in the KKK?"

....and goes on to say that this is a worse-case senario.

I agree. Violence against LGBT people is a reality and we do need to take caution. But for me, the fear of something like that happening is far less stressful than not being free to be who I am.

It's about freedom.

In a Reader's Digest article in 1961 Archibald Macleish said this about freedom:

"There are those, I know, who will say that the liberation of humanity, the freedom of man and mind, is nothing but a dream. They are right. It is the American dream."


In a speech in Edwardsville, IL in 1858 Abraham Lincoln said this:

"What constitutes the bulwark of our own liberty and independence? It is not our frowning battlements or our bristling sea coasts. Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in us. Our defense is in the spirit which prized liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands everywhere."


In 1912 President Woodrow Wilson had this to say:

"America lives in the heart of every man everywhere who wishes to find a region where he will be free to work out his destiny as he chooses."


Benjamin Franklin said this:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."


Daniel Webster in 1834 said this:

"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."


Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:

"He that respects himself is safe from others."


In 1966 President Lyndon B. Johnson said this:

"The only struggle worthy of man's unceasing sacrifice is the struggle to be free."


Senator Everett M. Dirksen:

"Every denial of freedom, every denial of equal opportunity for a livelihood, for an education, for the right to participate in representative government diminishes me. There, is the moral basis for our cause."


And shortly before his death in 1963, President John F. Kennedy said this:

"Finally, it should be clear by now that a nation can be no stronger abroad than she is at home. Only America which practices what it preaches about equal rights and social justice will be respected by those whose choice affects our future."


No matter what our opponents argue about our "sinister agenda," our goal is simple; freedom and equality. We simply want to live our lives as we see fit and to pursue our goals as free people without fear of violence or discrimination.

In a nation that pledges to liberty and justice for all, is that really asking too much?

Rick Hunter

[Daniel]

Here! Here!

Great quotes!

[Alecto]

I agree on a general level, but everyone's gotta start somewhere. And, I do think there's a difference between "being yourself" and posting everything about yourself. Different people have different thoughts about how much information is too much information. Nevermind the KKK members, let's consider just the every-day crazies that stalk every inch of online space. I don't think it's a "gay" issue, I think it's a general safety issue for everyone. I"ll remind you that we've got people on here of all ages, too. I find it problematic, to say the least, to pressure highschool students (or younger?) to be putting more information in their profiles.

[Zerbie]

Yep, Alecto nails it again. 'Zackly.

Meanwhile, Rick, thank you for posting all those inspirational quotes!! They're terrific.

[RevVW]

Just been reading this thread, I've been out of town a few days. Now, I haven't been posting to this sight very long, and to show you how technically impaired I am, I didn't know it could be a "danger" to post too much personal info. What I do know is I've found people I can connect with. Am I a bit anxious about who might find this? You betcha. I've probably already shared too much.

I must agree with those who have said it must be an individual choice of how much one shares. That doesn't imply dishonestly, with many, it may just make good sense. Lives are complicated, and none are the same. I, for one, appreciate the freedom to share as much or as little as I feel is appropriate. (Hi Zerbie! ! Vern

[Zerbie]

Hi Vern! I see your and raise the stakes to a and a and wish you a good night.

Z

[dsdrane]

...both make very good points, and I believe this thread/discussion is an important one (perhaps one of the most important) we as a "family" can have.

Firstly, this has to be a safe place for people at all stages of the process of becoming themselves. I don't mean that to sound so esoteric...the most obvious "process" is the coming out process. My particular process is the coming out of my "religious closet". Regardless, a process has steps and stages and no one is ever at the same exact spot.

That said, Rick's nudging is important too. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, when I took part in a number of ACT-UP & Queer Nation actions, one of our chants was: out of the bars and into the streets. This chant was aimed at those who were perceived to be enjoying the fruits (no pun intended...haha) of the labors of others but who refused to put their own necks on the line.

Rick: I note in your profile that you have been an activist since the mid-70s. Very cool...I love people like you. But you must have had a "process", too, yes? There must have been some sort of learning curve that took some amount of time for you to be ok with yourself and with communicating with others, right?

The thing that I absolutely adore about this site is the fact that people, who would have been very isolated not so many years ago (like I was as a kid in Maine), have a forum to be who they are, where they are. Some of us have come out with rockets on our feet and others are still very much hobbling around on training wheels.

Those more experienced of us need to help and nurture the "young" ones, and the "young" ones contribute by reminding the experienced ones that society still makes The Process a painful one, internet or no internet.

Now...who wants a cookie??

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I just wanted to add that because I'm used to general "forum" protocol, it didn't occur to me to use my full real name. Besides, I think a handle that I choose tells you more about me. My first name can be found in my introduction thread. I think we should really consider where we are, virtual space, before we start making assumptions about why people aren't posting all of their personal information. I'm 20 (almost 21), but I still try not be VERY aware of just how much information I'm giving out to anyone who wants to see it. Not because I'm afraid of people knowing who I am and that I'm gay, but because I don't know who's looking at that information. I'm someone who was outed to at least one friend before I was ready because I wasn't thinking about what I was putting on my "anonymous" blog in highschool. It all worked out well, and it's not about being outted anymore, but especially when connected with an activist organization instead of just some other gay space online, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave at least part of your information a mystery. I have a geographic location and a first name; I don't know why anyone, nay, EVERYONE needs to know my last name. And I don't think that that's the type of self-hating "fear" implied by people who are YAY-out. I'm YAY-out too, but I'm still going to try to protect myself on the internet.


And there are other people who aren't "yay-out" for whom the risks aren't all imagined. I had a friend who was disfellowshipped from the church of Jehovah's Witnesses, and as such also kicked out of her home, because the elders googled her name and found her involvement with the school's pride group. Again, it ended up working out (that was the year she moved off campus, so she didn't find herself without a home at any point), but that's still not something I'd wish on anyone, and certainly not a risk I'd expect someone to expose themself to before they're ready.

Alright, I think I've identified why these responses make me upset: let's play a game where we only talk about our OWN experience, ok? So, if you're lacking information in your profile, you'll have a very good response to the OP. Otherwise, you're just guessing and that's both unfair and oftentimes offensive.

THANK YOU!!!!

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Actually, what I got out of Daniel's words here, was an honest reaction HE has to postings by those who don't bother, for whatever reason, to put anything in their profiles. Yes, in the past we've had 'visitors' who profess to be on the forums for one reason and when the postings are said and done the true reason comes out - nothing like the original stated excuse.

I get why there are some who genuinely are afraid to put anything person in their profile. Some are afraid of the 'what ifs' and others of the experience of having 'what if' actually happen to them. Most of those we call 'regulars' do have a profile. It might take visitors a while to trust enough to put anything down. It does call to mind 'what are they trying to hide' but something you have to approach with an open mind. Like Zerbie said, I would rather have someone share anonymously than not at all.

Daniel implied that he feels people who don't post enough to satisfy him come off as deceitful, and he doesn't post to them if they are not disclosing their life-story.

That is what I found offensive.

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by RevVW

Just been reading this thread, I've been out of town a few days. Now, I haven't been posting to this sight very long, and to show you how technically impaired I am, I didn't know it could be a "danger" to post too much personal info. What I do know is I've found people I can connect with. Am I a bit anxious about who might find this? You betcha. I've probably already shared too much.

I must agree with those who have said it must be an individual choice of how much one shares. That doesn't imply dishonestly, with many, it may just make good sense. Lives are complicated, and none are the same. I, for one, appreciate the freedom to share as much or as little as I feel is appropriate. (Hi Zerbie! ! Vern

I agree completely. It's not dishonesty--it's choice. The very IDEA of this group.

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I agree on a general level, but everyone's gotta start somewhere. And, I do think there's a difference between "being yourself" and posting everything about yourself. Different people have different thoughts about how much information is too much information. Nevermind the KKK members, let's consider just the every-day crazies that stalk every inch of online space. I don't think it's a "gay" issue, I think it's a general safety issue for everyone. I"ll remind you that we've got people on here of all ages, too. I find it problematic, to say the least, to pressure highschool students (or younger?) to be putting more information in their profiles.

In my case, my info (I'd actually put more in my profile here than on any other site) was used against me by a gay-hater who was cruising the site, found my name, and used it and my letters to destroy me. Everytone who knows me saw what he did--I was outed in front of hundreds.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by kimmyd

Daniel implied that he feels people who don't post enough to satisfy him come off as deceitful, and he doesn't post to them if they are not disclosing their life-story.

That is what I found offensive.

No. Kimmy, I did not imply that. I am sorry, but you are dead wrong.

And lets be clear here, shall we? From your own sentence structure above, I could 'imply' that your words 'post enough' means post enough on the forum rather than post enough on one's profile. I hope you mean the latter, not the former. After all, this discussion has been about what one does and does not post on one's PROFILE, which, of necessity, is at best a sketchy outline.

It's all so very easy for us to misunderstand one another when emotions run hot. And we have been hurt in the past. And fear that we will be hurt in the future.

I am sorry that someone used information against you in a manner that brought you harm.

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Well. I'm sorry my words set your hair on fire. That was not my intent. And I find your reaction, frankly, to be an over reaction. I am fully aware, for one thing, that no one can "dislose their entire life in their profile". That's not practical.

Did I say full disclosure? No. I did not. Do I have my last name next to my picture. No. I do not. Why? I have some degree of common sense.

Like Zerbie, I am glad that those who choose to engage in a conversation here do so in a way that helps them and the goals of SF and gay people everywhere. But I have to say as an observer and particpant on this site for little over a year, the more interesting conversations and interactions take place when the parties involved 'know' each other. And part of that 'knowing' is one's profile.

In the world of learning and language, a profile is a point of reference. Like points on a map, it helps one navigate.

Thank you Tdogg for catching my meaning as I intended it.

What I found disturbing was your sentiment that people not being as open as you think they should be are not worth your posts; your words, not mine.
Yes that upsets me--you know why people have to be discreet, on this site as well as a lot of thers. But they deserve no less from you than the guy posting everything he's ever done. Period.

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by Daniel

No. Kimmy, I did not imply that. I am sorry, but you are dead dead wrong.

I do not appreciate your twisting the meaning of my words.

Here's what you said:

"And you know what the downside of non-disclosure is? I find myself not really giving the same kind of weight to the posts of those who don't 'own up' to their story-line. Yeah.....a person could put anything in their profile. But you know what? If there is reason to deceive, that comes out eventually."

[Daniel]

Kimmy- as I said before- Tdogg got what I was trying to convey.

Let me see if I can be more clear.

If someone calls you on the phone and doesn't identify themselves, do you go ahead and chat with them if they were your best friend? I doubt it. This is not unlike information in a profile- it gives one a sense of who one is talking to. I find that very helpful. And my comment wasn't meant as a judgment on any one. It's simply MY way of interacting with those here and has more to say about me than it does about you.

So can we drop this little tiff now and get on to something that really matters?

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Kimmy- as I said before- Tdogg got what I was trying to convey.

Let me see if I can be more clear.

If someone calls you on the phone and doesn't identify themselves, do you go ahead and chat with them if they were your best friend? I doubt it. This is not unlike information in a profile- it gives one a sense of who one is talking to. I find that very helpful. And my comment wasn't meant as a judgment on any one. It's simply MY way of interacting with those here and has more to say about me than it does about you.

So can we drop this little tiff now and get on to something that really matters?

But this isn't a phone call. It's a site with people sharing the same beliefs as you--and me. That's the difference. The trust in these people is immediate with me, as they share the same goal as I do.

And it does matter--a lot--to me.

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by Daniel

If someone calls you on the phone and doesn't identify themselves, do you go ahead and chat with them if they were your best friend? I doubt it.

Of course not. But I wouldn't treat a public forum like "chatting with my best friends" anyway. After all, I'm certainly not friends with all the people reading the forum. (This applies to any public forum, not just a GLBT-oriented forum or a forum dealing with controversial topics.)

This is not unlike information in a profile- it gives one a sense of who one is talking to. I find that very helpful. And my comment wasn't meant as a judgment on any one. It's simply MY way of interacting with those here and has more to say about me than it does about you.

I'm glad you feel that way. Unfortunately, there are too many other people at the extremes of either (1) saying all or most gays have a moral obligation to be totally out of the closet everywhere, with everyone, or, at the other extreme, (2) resenting out-of-the-closet gays. And then there are a whole lot of other people who have been burned (or at the very least seriously annoyed) by interaction with fellow GLBT people at either of these two extremes. So, this is inevitably a contentious topic.

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by kimmyd

But this isn't a phone call. It's a site with people sharing the same beliefs as you--and me. That's the difference. The trust in these people is immediate with me, as they share the same goal as I do.

Alas, I've learned from hard experience not to trust fully the people in a public forum (either the readers or the writers) no matter how much I may have in common with them. I don't assume the worst about people either; I simply withhold judgment until I've gotten to know them. In my opinion, trust must be earned over time; there can be no instant trust.

But, for me, it's not necessary to trust people fully in order to have a good conversation with them. In my opinion, only a fool would instantly trust a complete stranger, but that doesn't mean we can't be friendly to strangers or have worthwhile discussions with them.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by kimmyd

But this isn't a phone call. It's a site with people sharing the same beliefs as you--and me. That's the difference. The trust in these people is immediate with me, as they share the same goal as I do.

And it does matter--a lot--to me.

Sorry you didn't like my analogy.

Yes- we do share a common goal. We also have quite varied beliefs.

And speaking for myself, trust in relationship, whether virtual or in person, comes with time and sharing of one's life and interests. This may be a result of my age (48) and experiences in life. As a loner as a kid and even as an adult, I had to work hard at being a more open person, less fearful, less conerned about what others thought about me. I was very very self-conscious. It was really hard to me to establish healthy relationships. It took some pretty painful experiences for me to start to deal with things in a better way. And yes, being open about being gay was one of those things. It wasn't a walk in the park.

My sincere hope is that the efforts of SF will help those who are younger experience the freedom and joy that they deserve.