Gay virginity?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

marry me.

Dude! David, I went and looked at your profile and whoa! What a cutie!! And I woulda put ya under 30. (It's the yoga, it's gotta be the yoga. I'm over 30, and was recently mistaken for 16. Gotta be the yoga. )

Pablo, I don't know your relationship status, but if I were you, I'd be packing for a move to South Florida post haste!

[Daniel]

Well RunningFreak, I am married. Legally. Canada '05. To the guy I've known for 15 years. Would I have 'waited' until I met him? In a word?

NO.

Why not?

I didn't meet him until I was 34 (you do the math) and came out when I was 27. Does any one here really think I should have saved myself between the ages of 27 and 34?

Can I see a show of hands please?

Yep. That's what I thought. Only one or two are up. It is an unreasonable expectation. And this brings up a pet peeve of mine. Staight people seem to have something of a 'thing' with the sex lives of gay persons- fear- envy- fascination- repulsion. And it frequently seems as though straight christians are wont (a nice word that) to place a burden on gay persons- one which they do not place on themselves. You know- the whole "you can be gay but you can't act on it' nonsense.

I won't tackle the biblical issues, not my forte and I don't want to offend you. But it seems to me that living a healthy life, emotionally, physically and psychologically, also means not ignoring one's need for physcial intimacy. Blocking that desire doesn't necessarily make one holy or more sane. Quite to the contrary in fact. Better to exercise one's sexual life in an ethical manner. A manner which brings no harm to one's self or another person.

One might answer your question with this question.

Do most straight couples think about 'saving' themselves until they are married?

No. They do not.

Though conservative Christians profess to toe the party line regarding sex before marriage, even a small non-scientific survey reveals that actual practice is another matter.

[Zerbie]

Oh, you mean this thread was about a serious topic? Oops. Sorry.

Daniel, I'll up the stakes. I know people who didn't meet the right partner until their 40s, 50s, even 60s.

I would not want to deprive someone of sexual expression for decades and decades (though I thought of making some snide remark about a barbed-wire chastity belt, then thought better of it.) This sort of waiting decision is deeply personal, but sex IS a primal need, not only a physical one, also an emotional/psychological need. Most people will seek ways to meet that need, so to join the growing chorus of remarks here, of course the proper "use" of sexuality is one that is loving, caring, respectful, and mutual. No abuses of any kind are ever acceptable. Period.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Dude! David, I went and looked at your profile and whoa! What a cutie!! And I woulda put ya under 30. (It's the yoga, it's gotta be the yoga. I'm over 30, and was recently mistaken for 16. Gotta be the yoga. )

Okay Dave I checked out your picture. Now, I'm not gay, but if you don't want Pablo check me ... Oh sorry.

Anyway, you know it's not nice to lie about your age. Why would you want to be 40 before you were done with puberty.

I look the way I do, at the ripe young age of 52, because I've been rode hard, put away wet, and drank fermented fruits of the vine way too much in my life. You, sir, must lead the life of a saint.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Okay Dave I checked out your picture. Now, I'm not gay, but if you don't want Pablo check me ... Oh sorry.

Is there a line forming here? Can I get in it?

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Is there a line forming here? Can I get in it?

Well, Daniel, would there be some kind of impediment to you getting it ...

Okay! That's over the top. If I had any shame whatsoever, I would delete this post and save myself the embarrassment.

Daniel, just for me, could you rephrase the question.

[Daniel]

Aren't impediments something one goes to a podiatrist for?

Let's see .....we either put shoes on or take them off. Right?

4 inch heels can be a killer. But what a line they create!

Shameless. That's Oxi for ya.

~

Happy Birthday handsome David.

[andrewlittle]

I would like to apologize for anyone taking offense at what I wrote. I am sorry you did that.

As for the opinions expressed in the above posts, they were just things I happened to hear somewhere and repeated. They are certainly not my opinions, and would like to distance myself from the insensitive dolt that wrote them in the first place - which I would if I knew who he or she was - but, since I don't - and just happened to post them inadvertantly - I am not responsible for the lewdness of the suggestive remarks - and I certainly don't back them up.

Let me repeat, "Now, I'm not gay, but if you don't want Pablo check me ... Oh sorry." and "Well, Daniel, would there be some kind of impediment to you getting it ..."

While I don't think like this myself, I certainly defend the constitutional rights of any pervert that does. I just wanted to make myself perfectly clear - reasonably clear - oh, damn, immune to being held responsible.

In case you missed it - "Now, I'm not gay, but if you don't want Pablo check me ... Oh sorry." and "Well, Daniel, would there be some kind of impediment to you getting it ..."

But please remember that these are not my thoughts, or perhaps not thoughts at all.

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

marry me.

David,

You know I would reallty love to, but it's coming up on Holy Week. I've got a classroom of rowdy kids to handle, Palm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Vigil, and Easter Sunday services to play for, a Seder Meal to plan. Plus I've really got to do some house cleaning.
I'm swamped!

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[tpdncr4christ]

Originally Posted by runningFREAK

I was wondering what everyones thoughts were about this.. I know in the christian faith obstaining from premarital sex is a big thing, I agree with it too. BUt you find in the homosexual community that there is just about no one that believes that. I think partially is becasue there is no option to marry but and there isnt a strong faith base in the community. So i was wondering what evryones thoughts both personaly and biblically where on that.

Umm... I actually want to get married very soon... like early 20's kinda soon. And I would love to wait for marriage. BUT... I'm not gonna wait for something that might not come for another 20 years...

If I love him, and he loves me, and we can say before everyone, family and friends, and God, that we love each other; I would consider that marriage. And then we would have a really fun night!

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

I would like to apologize for anyone taking offense at what I wrote. I am sorry you did that.

Uncle Andy!!! That made me smile. It reminded me of another situation in my head. Someone says, "I take offense to that," and the other person says, "Well, you don't have too."

[dsdrane]

...but seriously, folks:

YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST!!!

As for you, Pablo:

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

David,

You know I would reallty love to, but it's coming up on Holy Week. I've got a classroom of rowdy kids to handle, Palm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Vigil, and Easter Sunday services to play for, a Seder Meal to plan. Plus I've really got to do some house cleaning.
I'm swamped!

Tu Amigo, Pablo

I'll wait.

[jedismama]

I was one of those straight (I thought I was Straight, I'm really Bi) people that did wait until marriage. It wasn't for lack of offers or opportunity, I just thought "Sex is Sacred" and therefor reserved for marriage. I'm glad I waited. My husband didn't seem to mind either. (Though, he'd been married before.) Sex is awesome and in the right context, it's one of the most beautiful ways to express love and understand G-d's love too.

Now that I'm Bisexual and single...I'd like to wait til the next marriage-type relationship. I don't know how this will work out. I do know that I want to take things slow in my next relationship.

Just my two cents...

Julie Anne

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by runningFREAK

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were about this.. I know in the Christian faith obstaining from premarital sex is a big thing, I agree with it too. But you find in the homosexual community that there is just about no one that believes that. I think partially is because there is no option to marry and there isn't a strong faith base in the community. So I was wondering what everyone's thoughts both personally and Biblically were on that.

It does seem that there isn't a strong faith base in the gay community. I think one of the greatest falsehoods, and dare I say crimes, is that our society has convinced LGBT individuals that they cannot be members of a strong faith community. I have heard so many people talk about having to choose to be Christian or gay. (Not to discount other religions; just talking about what I know best.) So many gay individuals (like my brother) have left the church because of discrimination and rejection by the Christian community.

I have never had a question about being a Christian. I rejoice in belonging to the family of believers. I am convinced also that being gay is what God wants with me. I see a mission of gay Christians to convince the church that God loves His gay children. It is also to convince the gay community that there is a place for all of us in the Christian church. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[dsdrane]

...but, yes, Jedismama, this is a serious thread.

Let me introduce everyone around, shall I: Irony, Jedismama; Jedismama, Irony.

:|

Allow me to explain: I don't know Pablo from a hole in the wall. He knows me to a similar extent. It is widely known that we're playing a bit (I more than he...or he more than I...or something like that). I think he's a swell guy (based on his profile and posts), but the serious matter at hand (hell! I started it!) has, at least to my mind and I'm quite sure to others, never left the table.

To wit: sight unseen, I would so go on a date with the obviously good-natured, fresh-air-loving, rock-scaling, über-butch y hunky educator-of-our-youth [Pablo...take a bow, Darling]...and, letting my over-active mind run amuck, have mad, passionate pre-[not really legal-]marital sex with him. [Pablo, if you're reading this, I'm blushing wildly; I never type this way...normally...just so you know.]

Where was I? Oh, yes...[resuming full rant posture....]

And I know you're not just referencing us...but it serves my point for the moment, so work with me.

You may have meant that title to be as playful as we have been, but methinks I caught an edge...and I'm not completely sure I like it.

Bottom line: if you have something to add, do so, but please refrain from arch references to people having some welcome fun with each other and leave the dull-as-dishwater "if this is still serious?" stuff OUT.

Thanks much.

[Pablo...call me.]

[jedismama]

Sorry if I spoiled anyone's fun. I'm new to the forum and really wanted to respond to the original post, but I didn't know if it was ok to re-direct the conversation.

Please forgive me.

[Pablo Rafael]

He's always this way when when he's been drinking...sigh!

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Allow me to explain: I don't know Pablo from a hole in the wall.

How can you say that! After all we've been through together.
I'm hurt.

And I guess I will have to tell you. choke, sob. My parents say we have to stop seeing each other. They were all smiles and joy about the romance until I brought up the ugly truth about things. They are old-fashioned and conservative; they just can't handle it. They won't let me go out with an Episcopalian! Don't cry please, I just couldn't handle it at the moment.

I would so go on a date with the obviously good-natured, fresh-air-loving, rock-scaling, über-butch y hunky educator-of-our-youth [Pablo...take a bow, Darling]

Uhh... this might not be the best time to bring this up, but David, do you know how I can get in touch with this guy you're describing?

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

I posted this thought a couple of days ago and everyone ignored it so I'm bumping it up again to see if perhaps a higher class of clientele might have arrived to take it more seriously. Seriously, how do you respond to a hierarchy of ethical principals and values as opposed to a hard and fast "rule" ("God is best pleased by sexual relationships that are loving, respectful and covenantal and the relationships that best embody those ideals are the ones that best please God" as opposed to, "Sex outside of a marriage like relationship is always a sin and a person should always wait until marriage")

As a Christian living under grace rather than law I try not to think much in terms of "Sin" but rather in terms of what actions best convey and embody the gratitude that I feel toward God for all that God has done for me.

As a son of the Reformed tradition I recognize that the thing which characterizes God's relationship to humanity throughout history is the concept of "Covenant" God makes and keeps covenant with humanity over and over in spite of human inability to keep faith with God. The ultimate manifestation of that Covenant making nature of God is the New Covenant sealed in Christ's blood.

Therefore, as I choose the actions that I believe are most pleasing to God in order to express my gratitude for the goodness of God, I try to choose relationships which are "Covenantal" in nature. Marriage is such a "covenantal relationship". This is one of the reasons why my wife and I didn't run right out and hire a divorce attorney as soon as I came out to her as gay. We beleive that to honor God we must honor our covenant together. That doesn't mean that we won't decide to end our marriage, but simply that we will not do so lightly or quickly without exploring the possibilities for staying together as well as the costs of doing so.

SO... I believe that for glbt people, marriage before God (regardless of the law) is the choice that best honors and "thanks" God. The fact that society tries to prevent GLBT people from exercising this choice is not only unconstitutional and un-American ... it dishonors God (and is therefore blasphemous).

A loving sexual relationship outside of "marriage" honors God less well.

a sexual relationship that objectifies the other and uses them, pleases God not at all

An act of sexual brutality or rape is "Sin" in its deepest sense.

Dave

So for instance, Austin might (WOULD!!) decide to pass up the chance to slip a date-rape drug into a classmate's pepsi and take advantage of him. he might ( WOULD!!) pass up the chance for anonymous sex in the men's room at the park. he might (would!) take a raincheck on a stranger's offer of a meaningless "hook-up" after a frat party at college. But he might consent to a consensual, caring and respectful sexual relationship with someone that he has been dating for awhile but to whom he has not made a lifelong commitment. He might do this knowing that it is not God's HIGHEST purpose for his sexuality or his life , but also knowing that the mutual, ethical, loving, and responsible nature of the relationship is pleasing to God. Later, this or another relationship might lead him to the best expression of sexuality which is in committed and loving relationship (Covenant)

Dave

[Zerbie]

Pablo!

You *still* aren't on your way to Florida?!?!?!!!! If I were you, I would so not pass that one up. Gee whiz!!

Hey Jedi Mom: Please don't feel bad. Yes, it's okay to re-direct conversations, happens all the time. (So do misunderstandings, though not as often.)

[u-dog]

I just posted a SERIOUS post ON the topic. and it CONTINUES to be ignored in favor of SILLY FRIVOLITY. Am I invisible or something??




( love you Z)

[Zerbie]

Love you too Dave.

I didn't respond to your post (or really to this thread until it got flirtatious!) b/c I don't feel I have relevant input. I have never gotten the "sin" thing - it's a meaningless word to me, and one I didn't start hearing until adulthood when I started reading/hearing the things that other folks (many of our political opponents for instance) believe.

I've always found the failure to recognize the sacred intimate partnerships that gay couples establish to be quite a blasphemy against the God who gave them their ability to love and honor each other in the first place. When my husband and I married, we went through a few steps. City hall, paid a few bucks, signed something, and 10 minutes later had an official certificate saying that the State validates our relationship. Shortly after, we had a ceremony with family and friends present, and the minister who officiated signed our State certificate. ALL OF A SUDDEN WE ARE DIFFERENT IN THE EYES OF GOD BECAUSE SOME DUDE SAID SOMETHING?! No. We were married in the eyes of God when our spirits commited to one another, which was the wonderful day when my husband asked me. The "marriage" that came later was only an outer ritual. (One with many attendant responsibilities and privileges, make no mistake.)