Am I missing something?

[marion crossnore]

i have read and warched with interest the bus trips through the South, and closest to home the trip to BJU...I agree with the vigils, the non-violent protests, the requests for dialogue, but I really do not agree with going onto private property uninvited just to get yourself arrested and make for a media circus (granted in Greenville, SC, it is a one-ring media circus)

Soulforce, you have NO RIGHT to go onto private property uninvited, it cheapens your message and mars your cause...I know that you (the collective Soulforce "you") will not agree with me, but as much I as don't agree with BJU, I really don't agree with this aspect of your journey either

standing on public property near these institutions, absolutely, but you MUST respect the rights of your antagonists!

and until you do respect the "other" you will not have my financial support

Marion Crossnore

[Daniel]

Marion- Yes. You are missing a lot. For instance: this thread is not the place for your post. It is reserved for prayers, not complaints. I encourage you to learn your way around this forum so as to post your message where it can be responded to in the appropriate manner.

Welcome.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Marion's post (and Daniel's response) were moved from the Prayers for the Equality Ride thread to this new thread.

Also, Marion, this has been discussed a great deal already. You might want to read the posts in the following threads:

What if Missionaries came in to your house to protest? Would you have them arrested?

On Morality, Civil Rights, and Soul Force

Others can add more threads where this was discussed.

[u-dog]

We really have discussed this puppy out the wazzoo. It is unlikely that you will get much response unless you read those threads and then post some NEW angle that we haven't discussed. If you can't or don't want to do that then we should probably just agree to disagree. But you ARE welcome here and we would be very interested in something new...

Here is a question to which I would like an answer (not necessarily just from Marion or even just from people who agree with Marion): Why does the issue of "private property" seem to so important to people and to evoke such passionate responses? Gay teenagers and young adults (kids JUST like our own dear Brian, Jenn, Austin, Lydia, Greg et al) are ending their own precious, God given, light filled, delightful lives because of the viscious spiritual violence perpetuated by conservative colleges and churches. Imagine the light of 10,000 imaginative young poets like Austin blinking out of existence. Imagine 10,000 quirky, funny, thoughtful minds like Brian's suddenly leaving the building. Imagine 15,000 searching, questioning, passionate advocates for justice like Jenn suddenly exiting stage left! This is actually happening! Year after year after year. These folks have an "opinion" they have their "values" and their "Beliefs" and those opinions/values/beliefs are CAUSING YOUNG PEOPLE SO MUCH PAIN THAT THEY KILL THEMSELVES! THIS IS WHAT IS AN OUTRAGE! NOT WHETHER A FEW PASSIONATE YOUNG PEOPLE STEP ON THE GRASS!!!!!!!

So... let me re-iterate my question now that you know the source of my confusion.

Why does the issue of "private property" seem to be so important to people and to evoke such passionate responses?

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by u-dog

We really have discussed this puppy out the wazzoo. It is unlikely that you will get much response unless you read those threads and then post some NEW angle that we haven't discussed. If you can't or don't want to do that then we should probably just agree to disagree. But you ARE welcome here and we would be very interested in something new...

Here is a question to which I would like an answer (not necessarily just from Marion or even just from people who agree with Marion): Why does the issue of "private property" seem to so important to people and to evoke such passionate responses? Gay teenagers and young adults (kids JUST like our own dear Brian, Jenn, Austin, Lydia, Greg et al) are ending their own precious, God given, light filled, delightful lives because of the viscious spiritual violence perpetuated by conservative colleges and churches. Imagine the light of 10,000 imaginative young poets like Austin blinking out of existence. Imagine 10,000 quirky, funny, thoughtful minds like Brian's suddenly leaving the building. Imagine 15,000 searching, questioning, passionate advocates for justice like Jenn suddenly exiting stage left! This is actually happening! Year after year after year. These folks have an "opinion" they have their "values" and their "Beliefs" and those opinions/values/beliefs are CAUSING YOUNG PEOPLE SO MUCH PAIN THAT THEY KILL THEMSELVES! THIS IS WHAT IS AN OUTRAGE! NOT WHETHER A FEW PASSIONATE YOUNG PEOPLE STEP ON THE GRASS!!!!!!!

So... let me re-iterate my question now that you know the source of my confusion.

Why does the issue of "private property" seem to so important to people and to evoke such passionate responses?

Funny you should ask that question, because just last night I was thinking that we Americans have several idols we worship one of them is private property. The other is capitalism. Native American people understand that there really is no such thing as private property. The land belongs to the creator and we are simply here to take care of it. And we all see how well we have done that

Perhaps as we celebrate the Resurrection, Passover, or whatever holi(holy)day, we could give up our golden calves and idols. kara

[antonyh]

Hi Marion,

Here is the thread where we discussed the issue:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2477

And let me tell ya, I have a few bruises, but it was a great discussion and I'm not sure I am right and I still remain conflicted about the issue.

I actually spoke with an African American friend of mine at DePaul University about the issue because I wanted her perspective on Dr. King and the idea of having public laws in your sights whenever you step onto private property.

She said that Dr. King did focus primarily on unjust public laws in his activism, but that there are many who wonder if that was really enough. She cited Brown vs. Board of Education which desegregated schools. While the law has changed, thoughts and hearts have not. Schools still remain very segregated in practice.

From this perspective, Soulforce is challenging hearts and minds. We can change the laws, but that does not mean that hearts and minds change. African Americans enjoy a tremendous amount of legal equality, but structural racism still remains.

This is an exceptionally complex issue to sort out because homophobia is deeply embeded in and justified by our religious communities and our religious communities are protected by freedom of religion. They are within their constitutional boundaries to hate. And they are leaving their fortresses to lobby against our civil rights. And they are reducing the faith of many LGBTQ people to ashes.

So how can we respond to such well protected hate?

Why does the issue of "private property" seem to so important to people and to evoke such passionate responses?

Because that is the space protected for freedom of religion in the first amendment of the Constitution. We just don't have the luxury to be casual about it.

[tdogg]

Amen Kara!

And U-Dog too - for some it seems as tho the private property issue is much more prevailing than our young gays and lesbians being expelled, oppressed, ridiculed, threatened, etc. in these schools. I understand the private property issue in that these schools may THINK they are private property; however, as discussed elsewhere that is debatible at best. IMO, working towards full equality and acceptance takes precedence and if that means people have to walk on and into the school grounds to do it, so be it.

No one from the ER is committing acts of violence - they are merely attempting to communicate with students and faculty (if they are around). Yes, they are pushing their cause, but if those who are so opposed to it understood the pain, hurt, humiliation gay and lesbian students are subject to, REALLY UNDERSTOOD - the 'pain' of the ER riders walking onto campus lawns and grounds is pretty moot (especially considering it isn't painful at all, let's be serious here). The point isn't that these students can go to some other college - many do NOT have that option.

I too, am anxiously awaiting a reponse to U-dog's great question...

[u-dog]

the puppy patrol needs to stick together

[antonyh]

I understand the private property issue in that these schools may THINK they are private property; however, as discussed elsewhere that is debatible at best.

Law enforcement thinks it is private property too.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Law enforcement thinks it is private property too.

This REALLY needed a smiley face (I'm sure that I heard your tongue in your cheek!

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Law enforcement thinks it is private property too.

There is the law and then there is God's law, Antony. I sincerely believe that Native Americans have the correct understanding of private property.

Kara

[u-dog]

IF those Native Americans step on the grass, they WILL be arrested!!! Make no mistake!


You have the right to remain silent. If give up your right to remain silent, anyth....

[Daniel]

This may seem a bit tangential, but the matter of Public vs Private has a far reaching influence.

I recently saw a program on an Indian (continental) woman who works tirelessly for the rights of farmers in her country and against globalization in particular. She cited egregious examples how a company will come in and make a claim that they own a particular kind of seed that has grown in a valley for thousands of years. This means that the company is endeavoring to gobble up natural recources as if it invented them.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/envir...ion_03-23.html

This is not the only place where this kind of thinking happens. It is also seen in the area of 'intellectual copyright'. In short, individuals and companies are making forays into what was once considered the public domain. And even the notion of copyright itself has changed. Congress has enacted laws which enable the descendants of descendants to keep making money on one person's orginal work. This is a sea change from former practice where information entered the 'public' sphere much earlier.

Because of this, I see the whole issue of public vs private as about money, privilege and acquisition, as well as the corporatization of the world economy and the individual.

The irony for me here is that, even though we, as Americans, have more 'stuff', we actually have less. We are loosing sight of what really matters.

The pubic good.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by u-dog

This REALLY needed a smiley face (I'm sure that I heard your tongue in your cheek!

I was being tongue in cheek but also hoping to tickle (stimulate?) some thought at how important it is not to be casual about the freedom of religion practiced on private grounds.

[Allyson]

What I'm wondering is how many closeted and oppressed GLBTQ people walk on the "private property" of these colleges and universities every day, terrified that someone will find out, scared into submission by unjust policies and unsound doctrines and those who enforce them both?

To be a voice for the voiceless is Christlike. To do so at the very epicenter of their voicelessness, and at risk to oneself, is especially Christlike.

[u-dog]

preach it!

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by Allyson

What I'm wondering is how many closeted and oppressed GLBTQ people walk on the "private property" of these colleges and universities every day, terrified that someone will find out, scared into submission by unjust policies and unsound doctrines and those who enforce them both?

MANY! Right on Allyson!

The ER Riders aren't trying to interfere with anyone's religious freedom on these campuses, they are trying to end the oppression and abuse (and all that goes with that) of the GLBT students that are a result of the views of particular college administrators. There is a difference.

Great thought Allyson - they are bringing the love Christ demonstrated, back into these "Christian" schools.....

[Allyson]

Thanks, y'all!

Originally Posted by tdogg

...that are a result of the views of particular college administrators.

It's worth noting, I think, that administrators are only part of the problem, and a small part at that. Much of the pressure to keep anti-GLBTQ policies in place comes from denominational organizations that fund schools, parents who send (or who might send) their kids there, and--most importantly, I think--wealthy donors who keep endowments propped up.

[ctozrn]

I think the most important thing to remember here is that

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LIVES!!!!!!!

There are young GLBT kids who are KILLING themselves everyday! That should be the outrage! You are talking about private property when there are kids being told they are going to hell for how they are born?

Who cares about the grass!!!!!!

The fact that someone can come on here concerned about walking on private property when there are so many young kids suffering for who they are is unbelievable to me! If we had worried about that Civil Rights would have never gotten anywhere. I live in Greensboro, NC the home of the sit ins. I drive by the very spot that the four young African American men sat at the counter for a week until they were served. This was a pivitol moment in Civil Rights! This was what really got the ball rolling. And guess what???

Woolworths was PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!!!

We, who believe that religious oppression for GLBT youth is wrong have got to upset the applecart in order to be heard. This is not something to stand by quietly and watch as young lives are snuffed out. The ER do what they do because it is the right thing to do.

I am going to take a cold shower now!!!

[Vanessa White]

I want to concur with many of the comments that have already been made here on this topic. The private vs. public property debate may be an important one, but one which has been discussed fully in an alternate thread. My reason for responding to this one has more to do with what has been said about the young, vibrant lives that are being lost. The estimate is that out of all youth suicides, about one third are by those young men and women that are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered, or are questioning their sexual orientation. For them, a life of living in fear, shame, and hidden from the outside world is not worth living. A world in which they feel totally rejected, or that they will be, is one that they actively choose not to live in. I have no blame for them in making that choice, but moreso on those that could extend that love and support to to them, in order to help them understand that there is compassion, love and understanding in this complex world. It is unforgivable to me, that we lose so many precious young lives in 2007, because some persons in our society believe that it is so sinful for them to just be who they are created to be. We here at Soulforce offer love and support to each other when we most need it, but we also are here as guiding lights and examples for those youths that most need it. And, the ER and the riders are an opportunity to take our message to those places where some of the most oppression exists, so those that don't know about us, and feel alone, hopeless, and helpless, can maybe have hope, and maybe not want to take their own lives. It is a worthwhile, essential endeavor. It is our duty and responsibility. Let our commitment never waiver...... Love and peace to all, Vanessa