What is Soulforce asking Christian colleges?

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Soulforce

Spiritual violence is the misuse of religion to sanction the condemnation and rejection of any of God’s children...It is just as violent spiritually when pastors and parents—quoting scripture—condemn and reject members of their congregation and their family (Mission Statement Page)

As Soulforce visits conservative Christian colleges, what are they asking these Christian colleges? Is it to stop spiritual violence against LGBTQ people or is it to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality? Or is it both?

I've extracted two quotes from the response by Covenant College and Central Bible College. In both cases they believe that that the Equality Ride is on a mission to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality.

Originally Posted by Covenant College

The rides stated mission is to challenge Covenant's biblical view of sexuality and policies on sexual behavior, which they view as discriminatory and oppressive. This explicit goal makes it very clear that they are not interested in genuine dialogue, but rather are missionally committed to changing Covenent from its foundations up. The riders are indeed on a mission trip...

Originally Posted by Central Bible College

CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice. It is with that commitment in view that we have addressed not only the topic of homosexuality, but any life issue...Central Bible College is a welcoming community; however, as with any responsible institution we must set and maintain what we believe to be appropriate standards of conduct. Having stated our commitment to the Word of God, CBC does not endorse the ongoing practice of any behavior not sanctioned by the Scriptures. That includes the practice of homosexuality.

I attended two institutions like the above and I know that they are never going to change their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality in my lifetime. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I have eight years of experience in their institutions to make this assessment.

I wonder if Soulforce could keep "beliefs" off the table in their activism and simply address the lack of compassionate response to LGBTQ people who find themselves at these institutions. In otherwords, the dialogue would be about specific topics like:

1. Sexual orientation
2. The psychology of coming out
3. Testimonies about LGBTQ experiences in these institutions
4. The biblical mandate for a compassionate response
5. A workshop on how to handle LGBTQ students with respect and compassion.

In otherwords, keeping "beliefs" off the table would allow the realistic possibility for dialogue.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by antonyh

As Soulforce visits conservative Christian colleges, what are they requesting? Is it to stop spiritual violence against LGBTQ people or is it to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality? Or is it both?

I've extracted two quotes from the response by Covenant College and Central Bible College. In both cases they believe that that the Equality Ride is on a mission to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality.





I attended two institutions like the above and I know that they are never going to change their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality in my lifetime. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I have eight years of experience in their institutions to make this assessment.

I wonder if Soulforce could keep "beliefs" off the table in their activism and simply address the lack of compassionate response to LGBTQ people who find themselves at these institutions. In otherwords, the dialogue would be about specific topics like:

1. Sexual orientation
2. The psychology of coming out
3. Testimonies about LGBTQ experiences in these institutions
4. The biblical mandate for a compassionate response
5. A workshop on how to handle LGBTQ students with respect and compassion.

In otherwords, keeping "beliefs" off the table would allow the realistic possibility for dialogue.

People often don't understand the basic goal of Soulforce which was one of the most important aspects of what Gandhi taught. That goal is first and foremost to change ourselves. Or as Gandhi put it, "to become the change we seek." All else is secondary. We must stand up for what we believe in; we must begin to overcome our own internalized homophobia. In doing that, we witness to others who see our stand for justice to begin to examine their own fears and homophobia.

That absolute assurance that we are God's children, is undeniable to those who have "eyes to see." And so our stand spreads to those allies, like the student from Dordt college who wrote about the experience of having Soulforce there. You can find the letter on the blogs.

The last goal is to change the denominations and colleges that are teaching this untruth.

Kara

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

The last goal is to change the denominations and colleges that are teaching this untruth.
Kara

is directly challenging...

"CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice."

...and is closing down any possibility of dialogue (not everywhere, but on many campuses)

I am wondering why Soulforce can't say, "We understand that our biblical/theological interpretations differ on this issue, but we're not here to challenge your beliefs. We want to dialogue with your colleges about gay and lesbian people and about your responses to us."

This is important because there are LGBTQ kids at these colleges that can be helped by compassionate institutional responses. Like I said before, these institutions are unlikely to change their biblical/theological beliefs on homosexuality, but their responses to us should be challenged.

I also wanted to let you know about the Marin Foundation. This was started by Andrew Marin, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute (I look onto the campus from my apartment) to create dialogue between gay activists and Evangelical Christians. I discovered his work because he was featured on the front page of the Chicago Reader. Here is the the foundation's site:

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by antonyh

is directly challenging...

"CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice."

We continue to disagree on this. Soulforce has received so many letters from young people on campus both gay and straight saying that our being there has opened their hearts and their eyes. And again, these denominations and campuses are killing our people. It is NOT some benighn untruth these people are putting out.

I can not comprehend how anyone who knew what Jesus was all about can continue to keep up these lies. Jesus continuously called the outcasts, not the pharasees. And he wasn't afraid to alienate people, do you recall his calling the pharasees, vipers?

kara

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I am wondering why Soulforce can't say, "We understand that our biblical/theological interpretations differ on this issue, but we're not here to challenge your beliefs. We want to dialogue with your colleges about gay and lesbian people and about your responses to us."
http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

Anthony,
This is an interesting idea--but I'm not sure it really makes sense to me. You may need to tell me more.

The perspective that I have learned in Soulforce (which I believe to be grounded in Gandhi) describes our "adversaries" not as being evil, but as being "misinformed, as I have been." It seems that the process of becoming better informed means changing at least some of one's beliefs.

Are you suggesting that Central Bible College (for example) could maintain its beliefs about the Bible, but change their beliefs about LGBT people? Or are you saying that they can keep all of their beliefs, but change their behaviors?

Can we expect them to stop treating LGBT people as inferior to heterosexual people without changing their belief that God created human beings heterosexual and that GLBT people violate God's plan for universal heterosexuality?

I have met LGBT people who are fundamentalist Christians--they just disagree with the rest of fundamentalists on the specific issue of God's acceptance of LGBT people. (None of the original "Five Fundamentals" that defined "Fundamentalism" had anything to say about the topic of homosexuality.)

If Soulforce is committed to the philosophy that the source of suffering is "untruth" or "misinformation" then it seems we are committed to changing at least some beliefs.

You are not suggesting that people are incapable of changing their beliefs--you have changed yours, it would seem. (The belief that our "adversaries" can change also seems to be one of the basics in Soulforce training--so is the belief that we can change.)

Maybe I need to hear some more concrete examples of what you mean, Anthony.

Steven Webster

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by antonyh

...

is directly challenging...

"CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice."

...and is closing down any possibility of dialogue (not everywhere, but on many campuses)

I am wondering why Soulforce can't say, "We understand that our biblical/theological interpretations differ on this issue, but we're not here to challenge your beliefs. We want to dialogue with your colleges about gay and lesbian people and about your responses to us."

What you're proposing here is somewhat similar to an approach I used successfully to get a couple of very vocal religious right wingers to back down when I was in college back in the late 1970's. I didn't directly challenge their religious belief that homoseuxality is a sin; I just argued that they didn't have the right to impose that belief forcibly on others. However, this was at a secular college. I doubt my arguments would have flown too well at a Bible college.

Soulforce isn't really in a position to change the policies of any religious institution directly, no matter what Soulforce does or does not say. The best Soulforce can do is to try to get people at those religious institutions talking about the issue, in the hope of sparking changes in policy later. To that end, it might be best to talk about a variety of different aspects of the issue including interpretations of the Bible passages that are used to condemn homosexuality.

Originally Posted by antonyh

I also wanted to let you know about the Marin Foundation. This was started by Andrew Marin, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute (I look onto the campus from my apartment) to create dialogue between gay activists and Evangelical Christians. I discovered his work because he was featured on the front page of the Chicago Reader. Here is the the foundation's site:

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

I notice that the Marin Foundation does not avoid the issue of beliefs about homosexuality. For example, on the About Us page:

The Theological Interpretations on Homosexuality are five classes that cover everything an individual would ever want to know about what the Bible says regarding the topic of homosexuality from both a Progressive and Fundamental point of view. These classes thoroughly delve into each of the six main verses in the Bible that directly speak to homosexuality, dodging and avoiding no topic or thought pattern. Through this curriculum each verse will be dissected to its original translation and meaning in Hebrew and Greek, and then built back up in today’s context of theology, overall themes, conclusions and meanings of what each verse/passage is truly telling us about spirituality/religion and the GLBT community.

[antonyh]

Here is the Chicago Reader article on Andrew Marrin. I've been searching my butt off for this:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/feature...s/andrewmarin/

[Daniel]

Anthony-

Thank you for the link to the work of Andrew Marin and the foundation he has created.

The Marin Foundation educates, equips and provides the GLBT community with wholistic spiritual training, scientific research and clinical counseling. We seek to make available a transparent environment that does not force change, but rather fosters spiritual and religious growth.

The following is also from the website.

We are the very first organization of its kind in the United States that brings together the religious and GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender) communities in a non-threatening, research and biblically oriented fashion promoting the strength and growth of spirituality.

The aims of the Marin Foundation are laudable.

As I understand your argument, you would rather the anti-gay beliefs of conservative christians not be challenged. This strikes me as a moot point, for the simple reason that an openly gay person on a conservative campus is in itself challenging to anti-gay beliefs no matter how Soulforces 'policy' is tweaked. If the argument then circles around to 'gay-christians-should-stay-away-from-conservative-college-campuses-because-they-are-hurting-the-cause-or-equal-rights', this would be a return to your original concern on another thread, would it not?

I don't know if Andrew Marin is familiar with A Course in Miracles, but the goals of his foundation- that being nonthreatening - could be seen as falling within the same philosophical/metaphsycial framework. This framework posits that 'attack' in any form only furthers more 'attack', 'judgement' and 'condemnation'.

At rock bottom, this is the kind of 'belief' that appeals to my sensibilties more than anything else. I also don't see how this 'philosophy' falls outside the aims of an organization like Soulforce. Yes. We could argue whether the methods of nonviolence as enacted by Soulforce are 'attack' oriented and are 'forcing change', but my own personal view is that all that really matters in the end in the spiritual discipline of those involved. At the end of the day, we all have to own our projections.

[u-dog]

I did some reading on their website and to be honest... all of my alarm bells were going off. I got very bad vibes from this group. I think that they have gone to GREAT lengths NOT to divulge what they believe about homosexuality. I went to the websites of some of their contributors and they don't look particularly affirming.

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Here is the Chicago Reader article on Andrew Marrin. I've been searching my butt off for this:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/feature...s/andrewmarin/

Marin's personal beliefs are discussed here:

Marin may be more comfortable with homosexuality than the average evangelical, but he shares a belief in the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Which invites the question: does he consider homosexuality a sin?

When I ask it, Marin writes the question down on a piece of paper and studies it carefully. “It’s theologically sloppy to say it’s not a sin,” he replies. But he quickly adds that all Christians are sinners, according to Romans 3:23. “We’re all dealing with something.”

In this sense Marin’s a dyed-in-the-wool evangelical. But he doesn’t agree with many of his fellow conservative Christians on the consequences of this particular sin. In his view homosexuality won’t necessarily send you to hell. “It’s a great mystery who’s going to be in heaven,” he says. “Does God see sexual preference or someone’s heart, their will? At the end of the day, we don’t know. So there’s no easy way to count anyone out.”

Nor does he consider it his place to push gay people toward straight lifestyles--a new idea for some evangelical groups he addresses, given that the nature of evangelism is to be constantly on the march to win souls. “At what point do you release responsibility for someone’s life?” he says. “For me that point is when someone makes a decision for themselves. For example, if someone in the gay community decides that he’s gay and it’s OK with God, it’s not my job to tell them they’re wrong. I’m not telling anyone they have to change in order to love the Lord.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Are you suggesting that Central Bible College (for example) could maintain its beliefs about the Bible, but change their beliefs about LGBT people? Or are you saying that they can keep all of their beliefs, but change their behaviors?

Can we expect them to stop treating LGBT people as inferior to heterosexual people without changing their belief that God created human beings heterosexual and that GLBT people violate God's plan for universal heterosexuality?

You are not suggesting that people are incapable of changing their beliefs--you have changed yours, it would seem. (The belief that our "adversaries" can change also seems to be one of the basics in Soulforce training--so is the belief that we can change.)

I am pointing out that the constraint to dialogue between some Evangelicals and Soulforce are two different biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality. Both sides are approaching the issue from an "all or nothing" perspective characteristic of the culture war.

We need to seek out common ground for dialogue. I am suggesting that the common ground is the response to LGBTQ people by these institutions. They need to meet us and hear our stories and experiences. They need to be educated about sexual orientation and the Biblical mandate for kindness, justice and compassionate response. All this can be done without debating views about homosexuality.

I offered Marin as an example of an Evangelical Christian who is sincerely trying to build bridges between our communities. Here are some quotes from the Chicago Reader:

Through classes, speaking engagements, media outreach, and scientific research, the 25-year-old hopes to diffuse the fear and suspicion on both sides...Knox, who directs HRC’s fledgling Religion and Faith Program, says Marin is “unique, as far as I can tell. I don’t know of anyone else who’s trying to bridge the gap between evangelicals and the gay community the way he does.”...So far he has managed to convince both sides that he’s more interested in fostering dialogue than promoting an agenda.

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Here is the Chicago Reader article on Andrew Marrin. I've been searching my butt off for this:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/feature...s/andrewmarin/

Anthony,

I read the article. This young man's approach is intriguing. Essentially he is willing to not take his own conservative beliefs too seriously. I think there may be a lot of younger evangelicals like him--I think they may be some of the people that actually do dialogue with the Equality Riders.

Mr. Marin also strikes me as one who is tolerant of progressive theology although he remains personally loyal to conservative evangelical theology. This makes Marin as odd as his tolerance of homosexuality does. Many evangelical leaders and the evangelical schools we are dealing with are quite insistent that progressive theology is heretical, anathema, and not to be tolerated.

The Billy Graham comparison is somewhat apt. I gather that Billy Graham is somewhat "soft" on the issue of homosexuality. Many Fundamentalists rejected Graham because he was too willing to work with "heretics" like Methodists and Presbyterians!

I see Marin as possibly playing an important role in bringing about some progress. That doesn't mean that Marin's approach is the one right approach and Soulforce's approach is the "wrong" approach. They are just two different approaches.

It seems to me that one of Marin's goals is to be able to reconnect with LGBT people who've been driven out of their evangelical faith communities by oppressive teachings and policies. What would it take, Anthony, to reconnect you to the faith community you were part of when you began to earn your M.Div. degree? Could you settle for less than the possibility of being ordained to the ministry with your life-partner recognized as your legitimate spouse?

Soulforce is not interested only in the public policy/political consequences of religious right teaching--we are also concerned with teachings and practices of discrimination that make LGBT people inferior within their faith communities. That is why Soulforce has historically engaged in actions against denominational policies that bar LGBT persons from marriage and ordination. This means we've been at odds with "mainline denominations" like the Methodists, Lutherans and Presbyterians.

I'm a committed United Methodist and would not have gotten involved with Soulforce had they not taken a stand against the oppressive policies of my own denomination. Twice I've engaged in Soulforce co-ordinated "disruptions" of United Methodist General Conferences of which you might not approve, Anthony.

I would be very disappointed in Mr. Marin if, in the future, he were to become a leading evangelical and would still defend denying qualified LGBT person the ability to answer the call to the ministry, and refused to allow his church's blessings on same-gender marriages. My hope would be that as younger evangelicals like Marin grew into church leadership current policies would change.

By the way, Anthony, how old are you? I'm 56 this May, and I've been a gay activist in the United Methodist Church for over 25 years--it's been slow going, but I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. Tensions between "left and right" are much worse now than ever, but some think good things can come as such tensions eventually resolve. In that regard, Soulforce's role may be "stirring things up" while Mr. Marin's role is working out resolutions to tensions--there's a time and place for both approaches.

Steven Webster

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

In that regard, Soulforce's role may be "stirring things up" while Mr. Marin's role is working out resolutions to tensions--there's a time and place for both approaches.

I'm all for "stirring things up" if you're aiming for a realistic dialogue. The problem is that these institutions keep perceiving Soulforce as a threat to their theological views and this severs dialogue. There has to be some give and take because that dialogue is all important.

What would it take, Anthony, to reconnect you to the faith community you were part of when you began to earn your M.Div. degree? Could you settle for less than the possibility of being ordained to the ministry with your life-partner recognized as your legitimate spouse?

No I could not. These goals will never be possible in the communities of faith I came out off. I could see them happening in the Methodist church, but not the AG or PCA.

I'm a committed United Methodist and would not have gotten involved with Soulforce had they not taken a stand against the oppressive policies of my own denomination. Twice I've engaged in Soulforce co-ordinated "disruptions" of United Methodist General Conferences.

I thought you'd enjoy a poem I wrote about the co-ordinated "disruptions" at the United Methodist General Conference. I actually know Greg Dell



The Reverend Greg Dell

I saw you
surrounded by police
your face drawn by the sorrow
of a thousand gay lives
shattered in the conspiracy
that kills in the end.

You surrendered your freedom
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and honored my captivity
in the land of the free.

In your eyes misted by tears
I saw a vision of that day
my lover and I wept together
in the dark.
He drove away at dawn.

He believed the lie
that we weren’t ok
and I got left alone
with fierce love
and a memory.

The bars I’m behind
are not constructed in steel
but in thoughts as invisible as the wind
as strong as hurricanes
thoughts that bring the rains of loss.

The police put you in jail
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and behind those cold bars
you discovered me in your cell
and sat by my side.

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

I'm 56 this May, and I've been a gay activist in the United Methodist Church for over 25 years--it's been slow going, but I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. Tensions between "left and right" are much worse now than ever, but some think good things can come as such tensions eventually resolve.

I'd love it if you could tell us more (perhaps in a separate thread?) about goings-on within the United Methodist Church over the past 25 years regarding attitudes toward gays.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the tensions between "right" and "left" within the "mainline" denominations will only get worse until those denominations finally split. After all, over the past 50 years or so, the mainline churches have been shrinking, whereas some of the more fundamenatlist-leaning denominations (such as the Assemblies of God) have been growing like wildfire. Also the more conservative branches of the mainline churches have been growing worldwide. (See my separate thread Worldwide religious trends.) So, with very few exceptions, the unfortunate reality is that the conservatives have little or no incentive to mellow out. If anything, they have plenty of incentive not to mellow out.

I think it will be a very long time before the conservative religious groups cease to believe that homosexuality is a sin. In the meantime, Soulforce is doing good work, opening the minds of individuals within these denominations. But it will be a long time before these individuals add up to enough to change the more conservative branches of Christianity as a whole. I doubt that the latter will happen within the lifetime of any of us.

[u-dog]

What a powerful poem Antony! Thanks for sharing that.

[JudB]

I too doubt that I will see any of these changes in my lifetime. Of course I am 60 and that doesn't give me quite as much lifetime as others. However, I wouldn't stop working for these changes and being visible. The conservative church is growing but that will change. It always does. We have to put the message out there again and again and again and the moment will come when more people will listen. When I am in the middle of it all time seems to move so slow.

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I'm all for "stirring things up" if you're aiming for a realistic dialogue. The problem is that these institutions keep perceiving Soulforce as a threat to their theological views and this severs dialogue. There has to be some give and take because that dialogue is all important.

The kind of dialogue you're suggesting as "realistic" would also require a much more sustained effort than Soulforce would be capable of mustering, given that Soulforce isn't focussed on just one denomination or institution.

As I see it, what Soulforce does accomplish is to open the minds of individuals. Those individuals, in turn, may decide to form or join organizations which engage in a more sustained and more "realistic" dialogue with their own particular denomination or institution.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Diane Vera

As I see it, what Soulforce does accomplish is to open the minds of individuals. Those individuals, in turn, may decide to form or join organizations which engage in a more sustained and more "realistic" dialogue with their own particular denomination or institution.

Very good point.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I saw you
surrounded by police
your face drawn by the sorrow
of a thousand gay lives
shattered in the conspiracy
that kills in the end.

You surrendered your freedom
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and honored my captivity
in the land of the free.

In your eyes misted by tears
I saw a vision of that day
my lover and I wept together
in the dark.
He drove away at dawn.

He believed the lie
that we weren’t ok
and I got left alone
with fierce love
and a memory.

The bars I’m behind
are not constructed in steel
but in thoughts as invisible as the wind
as strong as hurricanes
thoughts that bring the rains of loss.

The police put you in jail
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and behind those cold bars
you discovered me in your cell
and sat by my side.

Your poem brought tears to my eyes. I have such strong memories of Cleveland. It was our first, really large action and what an amazing experience it was. Thanks for bringing back those memories.

Kara

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Daniel

As I understand your argument, you would rather the anti-gay beliefs of conservative christians not be challenged. This strikes me as a moot point, for the simple reason that an openly gay person on a conservative campus is in itself challenging to anti-gay beliefs no matter how Soulforces 'policy' is tweaked.

Not at all, simply that both sides already know what the other's beliefs are. Now how do we find common ground for realistic dialogue? A debate on the biblical/theological views of homosexuality will not get us there because both sides have drawn their lines in the sand.

I'm probably kidding myself about the possibility of dialogue (at least with the AG/PCA). I know in my personal life that the answer has been to put religion behind me.