Pastors

[Jennifer5]

The more I hear everyone talking about being pastors kids...(I'm one as well) the more I think.... Do pastors really do good?...... It feels like there is so much bad mixed in with the good, that the good is sometimes eliminated..? Have you ever come to the point of saying what are they trying to say???? Are they mixing what-ever they think with what religion says?

I'm not saying that pastors are bad just some of them seem like they might be a little comfused...

I don't know maybe it's just me?

[keltic63]

Pastors are people. People are imperfect.

are PK's any worse behaved than other kids? is it just that we watch them more closely? does the PK try to counter the Pastor's rhetoric with tricks and games to put their parents to the test?

the most effective pastors I've known, are the ones who don't take themselves too seriously. they don't claim to have all the answers, but they're more than willing to teach you what they've learned.

Maybe once they get all puffed up, God allows their kids to behave in such a way that it helps deflate the Pastor.....

[Zerbie]

Teeheehee, Keltic, I enjoyed your response!

I was gonna say the same thing: pastors are just people, like everybody else. They've maybe read some more, gone to school, taken tests, but alll that learning came from people, just like other people. They are people with perhaps more education, and a different perspective because of the nature of their job, but their personal "stuff" is going to determine a great deal of their words and actions.

[SolInvictus]

Hey keltic & zerbie: yes, you summed it up well. As you then know, being a pastor's kid isn't easy: pressure, having an "image," and certain expectations from congregation (in fundamentalist churches anyway).

[Emproph]

keltic, Zerbie, Sol,
You guys are too kind, but actually it’s a good point. The one’s I’m talking about here are on TV and radio because truth was not the goal or they are unaware they've lost sight of the goal.

There’s a few good ones I’m aware of, and to be clear, I do know that I’m not seeing the plethora of ‘good’ ones because they’re too busy BEING Christians.

Jennifer,
It’s not just you. One of the best things I learned how to do is to separate the message from the messenger. Every time I hear “Jesus” or the “Bible” mentioned on tv, and I do monitor the religious stations, my ears perk up like a watchdog ready for a fight. Sad to say, they usually disappoint. And it’s not necessarily what they say or believe, it’s how they do so.

They promote things like the iraq war (at least 30,000 civilians KILLED www.iraqbodycount.org ), without so much as even fathoming how anyone might not equate that with treating others as yourself (Christianity). If you think Iraq was THE threat, it makes sense. But if you want me to believe you know better, you need explain how and why it christian to cause 9/11 ten times over to a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 in order to prevent another 9/11. Unlike the Bible, that’s verifiable here and now information.

Just like when they condemn gay people for not accepting without reservation that we should love what repulses us most. Even if they were right, to not recognize the absurdity of what they suggest damages their testimony to God itself. They molest the very idea of Love in packaging ignorance and pride as indicative of the Designer’s Love.

I’ve learned to recognize it now, republicans do it a lot. Absolute unfiltered unfettered projection. In fact ‘conservative’/‘liberal’ is the perfect analogy.

A conservative ‘conserves’ their perspective, a liberal allows for the ‘liberation’ of their understanding. Technically a liberal could be more conservative than a conservative but never the other way around. A liberal perspective encompasses a conservative perspective.

A ‘preacher’ has conserved/confined their scope of truth to the Bible, thus the need for its inerrancy in order to stay “right” without learning anything new.

If all you know of are your own thoughts, naturally the motives of others will be seen only through the prism of your own motives. We all do it, it's just a matter of recognizing it.

Marriage equality IS a “redefinition.” Not of marriage of course but of THEIR definition of our inferiority, If you’ve decided gays are inferior because your goal is to be “superior,” of course “equal rights” are going to be seen as "special rights," and an agenda to get those rights, and forcing your belief of equality onto society, etc., because all you know and do is toward an ‘agenda’ and ‘forcing you beliefs upon society,’ and wanting the ‘special right’ to be saved to the exclusion of all others.

John Cornyn, Charles Grassley, Rick Santorum, Marsha Blackburn, and the president and his men, to mention a few, nearly every single word that comes out of their mouths means the opposite of what they are saying and they are describing themselves and their agenda openly and to a T yet don’t even realize it. Many preachers are the same way, yet I think a higher proportion of them (compared to republicans (mostly)), actually believe what they are saying.

Projection, seeing others as you are because you are unwilling to accept any truth that you are not in "control" of (Ergo, Biblical inerrancy). It is the ultimate blasphemy. They so often preach on the wiles of pride and close mindedness yet do not see the arbitrariness of what they consider to be certainty. The confinement of truth to the predetermined boundaries of their interpretation of the Bible.

They’re not “mixing” anything, they’re “redefining” God in order to secure their own personal “inerrancy.” In the effort to avoid plucking that last unflinchingly blinding root of pride, the only thing separating them from the direct knowledge of God, who is ONLY Love.

My brother is married to an Assemblies of God Pastor’s daughter. They are so dogmatic in their beliefs, I am afraid to even share my own witness with them, yet they are convinced I am devoid of knowing God as they do. That’s the real tragedy. I have to work on that one.

I think I’ll leave it there for now.

[schoolboi]

I must admit that I have been used and abused over and over again by ministers. The abuse was never physical. It was always mental and emotional. Very little of it had anything to do with my sexual orientation. I’ve seen others experience far worse things then I have. Most of what I experienced all accrued before I was 21 years old. It has been a long and difficult journey trying to find healing from those wounds. I’m still in the process of healing.

That being said I have also had a couple of wonderful experiences with ministers too. My current pastor is so kind and trustworthy. He has helped me learn to trust again, and has truly been a gift from God.

I have always wanted to be a minister. I know it is my “calling”. I think what I have learned most from my experiences is what I do not want to become.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by schoolboi

I must admit that I have been used and abused over and over again by ministers. The abuse was never physical. It was always mental and emotional. Very little of it had anything to do with my sexual orientation. I’ve seen others experience far worse things then I have. Most of what I experienced all accrued before I was 21 years old. It has been a long and difficult journey trying to find healing from those wounds. I’m still in the process of healing.

That being said I have also had a couple of wonderful experiences with ministers too. My current pastor is so kind and trustworthy. He has helped me learn to trust again, and has truly been a gift from God.

I have always wanted to be a minister. I know it is my “calling”. I think what I have learned most from my experiences is what I do not want to become.

your mention of mental/emotional abuse at the hands of pastors brought to mind some things that I have really tried to forget. I grew up in an Assembly of God church, and even tried to work as a music minister there after college graduation. I can remember being humiliated at a wed. evening service because the minister thought I should be participating more in the service...he called me up front to pray for me, and told everyone that I didn't seem to have much to pray for that evening. Another pastor ripped me a new one because he didn't like the song I played for the offering. And with another, I witnessed such a difference from the person in the office before and after the service, to the person in the pulpit during the service; I nearly lost my faith. All that was before I even began to deal with my orientation.

[Zerbie]

Good Lord, Keltic! That these things even happen at all is ridiculous!

I sang for a short time at a church near here. I overheard the member in charge of hiring musicians constantly criticize the (excellent!) organist for his music, and attempt to exert ridiculous amounts of control over his every musical choice. When I first went I brought my own hymnal from home, which is a gorgeous 100-year-old leather-bound book given to me as a parting gift from the church I sang at before. She told me it was inappropriate to use it because it had a leather binding and was the wrong color, so it "looks bad." Ultimately, I left and so did the organist a few months later, because she was trying to exert control over minutiae to such an extent that we couldn't do our work.

For some reason, some people feel it is their privilege to try and control the way that other folks worship, and I cannot understand it. If they are doing so, then they aren't doing their own worship. They are playing a social game. Keltic, I'm so sorry you felt humiliated by that pastor, but omigosh can you see in hindsight how he was the one who ought to have felt embarassed, not you?

All these posts from people getting garbage from their church!! Steam comes out my ears.

I say leave 'em. Find the people who can grow you, and in positive ways, not backwards! Find the people who deserve your trust, and if it takes a long time to find them, then be on your own until you do. All that negativity becomes very costly, otherwise.

[NathanATX]

My mom dragged me up to talk to the pastor's wife one Sunday after church. I was 13 or so and getting harrassed(sp?) at school... mostly because they all knew I was gay though I hadn't accepted my sexuality or acknowledged it at the time.

My pastor's wife told me to work out and put some muscle on... then I'd look more manly.

I get the biggest kick out of that now. The thought of "me" being manly... I'm not a total girl, mind you, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'm cracking myself up.

Back then, I was pretty ticked off.

*********

All that said, I think we have been taught to be great victims. We've been taught that when someone says or does something hurtful that it should wound us deep in our souls... and that we're justified being hurt, angry, pissed off... because what they said or did was "so wrong." And I don't mean "we" as glbt people, but "we" as western civilization.

I want to be less attached to what others think, say & do. So she said something I thought was ignorant & unkind. It doesn't make it true. It doesn't mean anything about me. And it also really doesn't mean anything about her, except that she did say something that I heard as ignorant & unkind. If that were to happen now, I hope I would be able to say something like:

"Pastor Sharon, I think that statement is both unkind and uniformed. You justified the other people's actions by suggesting it's my fault I'm being harrassed. I would have rather you said something to the effect of, "Nathan, I know you're having a rough time at school and that must be hard for you. You know that we love you, right? And you know that God loves you too, right? Just as you are! Usually people say & do unkind things because they see something in someone that reminds them of something they don't like in themselves. Let's see if we can come up with some solutions to deal with situations like this..." That would have been an appropriate pastoral response."

I know we've all encountered various abuse at the hands of our churches and pastors... and it's all wrong. I think that if we can learn to realize that it doesn't really mean anything, it's just what they did... then maybe we'll be able to see Christ in them and we'll begin to have compassion for them. And from that point, when we speak to them about the things they say & do, it won't be from a place of condemnation... it will simply be sharing. "Hey, I just wanted you to know that what you said about homosexuality really hurt & offended me as a gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender person. I realize you think homosexuality is wrong and while I disagree with you, I also don't think you're fully aware of the impact of your words. I'd like to talk to you about that sometime."

I'm also saying this as a future pastor. Pastors are human. I know I'm going to make mistakes. I pray that people will lovingly hold me accountable to be the man of God I profess to be... because when I "get" that I've done something unkind or unloving, I want to correct the situation/behavior immediately.

[revtj]

Do you guys see any difference between the terms/office of "preacher," "minister," or "pastor"?

I know the Spirit gives different gifts...but my experience has been that "preachers" are very political & self-absorbed, kind of in love with hearing themselves talk. That definitely includes the tv preachers I've seen.

A "minister"? I'm not sure why some people prefer that term. Open to ideas.

A pastor is what I long to be...I believe I am called to care about people, not yell at them, not build an empire...just love them and let God do the rest.

[Zerbie]

Nathan, If I believed more pastors thought like you, I would go to church.

[NathanATX]

Zerbie, I know MANY amazing pastors. My pastor, Rev. Ken Martin is awesome. Even the ones who have made mistakes in their pastoral relationships with me in the past are wonderful people, they just had some beliefs and behaviors that didn't match up with them being wonderful people.

I want to strongly encourage to reach out to some of the pastors in your community... let them know where you're at spiritually and what has happened in your past experiences with church. Ask them what their vision is for their church and if you fit in with that vision.

I think this exercise will be tremendous for your healing and it will also most likely be a powerful witness to pastors who may currently have misinformed ideas about sexuality & faith.

peace,
Nathan