Internalized Homophobia Strikes Again...

[NathanATX]

Internalized Homophobia Strikes Again... As posted in my blog, http://blog.myspace.com/nathanatx

This time internalized homophobia has shown up LOUD & CLEAR through Cherilyn, a girl who FREQUENTLY posts homophobic, fundamentalist messages on a "support straight marriage" message board.

In another thread she posted the following:

"Before, I reaffirmed my christian faith and re-accepted Christ as my lord and savior, I went with my cousin to a female strip club. A lot of girls in the strip club were making out with other girls. One girl liked me and asked if she could kiss me. Having the same mentality of my cousin at the time, I said sure why not, let's try it , see what it's like. So we kissed and I started to realize how people could get caught up in this lifestyle. Going to a strip club and seeing women dance nude, put thoughts in my mind making me think "hmmm...maybe I could like a woman too, maybe it could be fun to hae sex with a woman because women are beautiful." Well, I couldn't bring myself to do anything else with a woman because my conscience got the best of me. Kind of like when I was asked to participate in a three-some by some of my close friends. Couldn't do that either."

If you want to understand how she can blithely continue to argue her judgemental fundamentalist viewpoints, here's the reason: She has condemned and judged her own same-sex attraction so she has to condemn and judge it in others. She fears God would punish her, so she "punishes" others.

This is fascinating!

My mother, God bless her, is a "good Christian woman," just like Cherilyn. She loves God, goes to church and wants to save the world. And of all the people I've personaly interacted with, her attacks & judgement have been the most brutal. And recently I figured out why.

I asked her, "Mom, have you ever been with a woman?"

And she said... "God has forgiven me for everything I've ever done."

It's fascinating that whatever we despise in others usually is something we despise in ourselves.

My hope for Cherilyn, for my mother and for anyone else who attacks other people is that they will begin to see the truth of the incredible love God has for them... that they will see themselves the way God does... and that they will honor the Creator by not destroying the creation.

[Vanessa White]

What is so interesting to me about this young woman's post, is that she seems to blame the behavior of herself on the influence of her cousin, first of all. Second, what I find bothersome and almost offensive, is that her same sex encounter really seems to me to have little to do with orientation and everything to do with behavior. When I educate child welfare professionals about working with GLBTQ youths, I emphasize that behavior does not always indicate orientation. Many youths have reported having same sex experiences, or at least fantasies, maybe of which are heterosexual in their orientation. ALthough I am not interested in doing so, I could explore a sexual relationship with a man, but my orientation would still be lesbian. The part I would also want to impart upon this young woman if she would hear me out, is that I would not find myself in a strip club and participating in activities that I would consider degrading to myself, my partner, and to God. I don't have a need to explore anything at this point in my life but intimacy with the person that I love and am committed to. It ends up sounding like another way to present the gay community as just being interested in having illicit sex with one another. It is sad that for many of us, that is the furthest thing from truth. I hope that she will someday find it in herself to fully love herself and others for any of her past behaviors, attractions or pursuits, and love and admire us for who we are.

Vanessa

[Zerbie]

Yes, Nathan and Vanessa, lotsa of truth to that! People need to be reminded of a distinction between orientation and behavior. They're not the same. Even recently when I told someone I was bisexual, the wide-eyed response was, "And your husband is okay with that?" My husband had to be the one to tell me the questioner assumed I was concurrently involved with women - that he assumed my orientation was also a behavior. It's also a shame that the young woman posting on that other board equates all same-sex attraction with some silliness at a strip bar. That's exactly like saying all opposite-sex attractions are likewise. Again, a distinction needs to be made.

As to vicious homophobia - with a real emotional power behind it - it doesn't exist in a vacuum. What I have always called "knee-jerk" homophobia is the kind that people are taught to have, and isn't usually all that strong - open quickly to new information when a loved one comes out. But the vicious kind usually (always?) has a cause. Not necessarily internalized homophobia. Some of the most vicious homophobia I ever ran into has come from women who were once in love with gay men.

As far as internalized homophobia, which was your original point, I recently re-read some of my old diaries. It horrified me to read a few lines that I wrote when I was about 16 saying that I thought there was something disgusting about me for sometimes feeling attracted to women. I even expressed anger at a woman I was attracted to, for being attractive. Somehow, I thought anger would be acceptible to express whereas attraction would not.

[baraka]

hey y'all --

thanks for sharing some of your experiences of internalized homophobia. it can be a tough thing to kick. for me, i had known i was "different" since early childhood, but once i hit puberty & realized that my attraction to men was sexual, and that it was frowned upon, it really revved up my tendency toward depression & self-hatred.

thanks be to God for bringing me out of that pit -- even if it has been a torturously slow journey.

my opinion of homosexual behavior AND orientation was very condemning for a long time; i participated at various times in Homosexuals Anonymous and Living Waters programs, as well as Courage (for Catholics). ugh.

i'd love to read more of folks personal experiences & how they've grown into greater self-acceptance. howzabout it?

-- baraka

[Zerbie]

Baraka, I bumped an old forum poll about reconciling one's faith with one's sexuality. (At least, I think I bumped it; if it didn't succeed, search the site for it, it's not hard to find!)

For me, the internalized homophobia came on in the teen years, after I spent my childhood knowing I had different attraction patterns than the norm, and accepting them more easily than (I believe) many other LGBs accepted theirs. Actually, as a young child I knew there was a difference, and what it was, and felt comfortable and secure with it, even knowing it might pose some problems later!

Then, I went through a doubtful phase in my teens and very early 20s. Many factors played into it. The doubt happened when cultural conditioning (severe homophobia at home and in the world at large) intersected with my logical mind, and I had to analyze the anti-gay arguments for a while to assess where the truth lies. There was a very brief time when I actually considered joining a repressive Christian church and forcing myself to believe their dogma in order to give myself emotional/psychological security about the gay issue. But I couldn't bring myself to do it, since I knew that if I did force myself to live that way, I would know deep down that I hadn't plumbed the depths for the *real* answers. I would have to suffer the uncertainty of waiting and plumbing those depths, before I could really know. That was when I had just turned 20.

I have to say that most of my fears about coming out to myself (and goodness forbid, anyone else!) as non-heterosexual were fears of what could be done to me by others, not a belief that there was anything really wrong with me for the homosexual feelings. But when I fell in love for the first time at 21, and it was with another girl, taking that distant, spooky label of homosexuality and trying it on myself was terrifying. Until then, that was something that only OTHER people did. Yet and at the same time, it was falling in love with her that dispelled once and for all any idea I might have gotten in mind that there was something wrong with homosexuality per se. Having been in the midst of all that sweetness, kindness, mutual support, (to say nothing of all the stars in my eyes and the constant giddy excitement of being in love for the first time with someone who felt the same way with me), I could never again suspect homosexuality itself of being in any way spooky, scary, bad. . .all those terrible adjectives. Falling in love and finding out for certain how wonderful, innocent, beautiful, earth-shatteringly happy-making it is became the certain answer I had waited for. The girl I loved was so beautiful - to say homosexuals are disgusting is to call that beautiful girl disgusting, and that's an impossibility. Does this make sense, Baraka?

That's just part of it. At least for me, I could easily fill a book with all the ways I went back and forth over these issues. But it always comes down to whether or not I have a sense of my real self. The eternal self. Where is s/he/it? Do I feel it? And WHO is that? When I'm in touch with that, I simply do not doubt my own value, or question if I'm "acceptable" or not. Those questions themselves become irrelevant in the face of who we really are. We are so much larger than the silly circus of who's gay, who's bi, who's straight.

Methinks I'm rambling again, and in public no less. Going away now.

[Vanessa White]

Baraka: What a great topic to expand upon here. I always felt a little bit different throughout high school, and pretty socially inept with groups there, and not really accepted at all. I always kind of figured that was because I was overweight and teased. Once I got to college, and lived away from home, it was like a switch got turned on for me to wake up to the world of liking, and loving, other women. I fell in love my freshman year, and felt so isolated and alone with my feelings from afar for this woman that was a senior. I ended up dating a guy to kind of try to get over it. Even though I knew I had to keep my feelings for the woman a secret, I felt similar to what Zerbie seems to be describing. I didn't feel like there was something bad or wrong with me. I did know that I should make any grand announcements, tho. By the time my senior year of college rolled around, and it seemed pretty clear to me that my orientation was pretty strictly lesbian, I began to tell others around me, and felt a sense of pride and belonging to others in the community. I still felt a sense of isolation, though, and shame to a certain extent if that makes sense, because I had still chosen not to share it with my parents, although I had told my siblings. THey were very supportive, but I had a lot of fears about my parents knowing, which in hindsight, was pretty accurate. THey did not respond positively, although they didn't fully reject me, they rejected my feelings in a way. Even though I still don't always disclose my orientation to every person, I have spoken my truth to groups when invited, and I tell more people than ever before. I am just a person living my life, but I am a lesbian person living my life, fully, lovingly, and very proudly. I feel quite secure in knowing who I am, and that my sexual orientation is only one part but an essential part of the whole package. It seemed like all I wanted my whole life was someone to love, that would love me mutually in return, and I found that around the time that I really found myself and embrace who I am. There are so many factors in the world today that could discourage gay persons from loving ourselves, so many anti-gay sentiments, that I think we each owe it to ourselves to learn and stick to being as self-loving and accepting as possible, no matter what others say or think about us. Listen to your heart and its truth, and know that there is beauty in it. Peace all, Vanessa

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

My mother, God bless her, is a "good Christian woman," just like Cherilyn. She loves God, goes to church and wants to save the world. And of all the people I've personaly interacted with, her attacks & judgement have been the most brutal. And recently I figured out why.

I asked her, "Mom, have you ever been with a woman?"

And she said... "God has forgiven me for everything I've ever done."

It's fascinating that whatever we despise in others usually is something we despise in ourselves.

My friend Dotti (who, along with her partner Roby, is currently on the Gay Into Straight America adventure) is bisexual. Once during a conversation, she expressed the belief that a large portion of the population is, to some degree, bisexual. I've heard that thought expressed elsewhere as well. I think it was 10% of the population has a heterosexual orientation, 10% a homosexual orientation, and 80% fall along the continuum somewhere.

I don't currently subscribe to that theory as it doesn't seem to fit nicely with all the people I know. But then again, unlike NathanATX, I haven't asked very many heterosexuals if they have ever had a same-sex experience or fantasy. So I'm not discounting the possiblity of it being true. It would certainly change the gay rights movement if the B in GLBT was the vast majority of humans.

If it is true, it might suggest that fear of one's own attraction to someone of the same gender is what is fueling alot of this. I'm wondering too if alot of people don't know what to do with those innocent same-sex experiences that happened during childhood and if that adds to their fears regarding their own sexuality.

[Zerbie]

Jamie, those things definitely come into play. Most of us are capable under certain circumstances if life happens in very particular ways and the sky is green and the moon is purple and it's raining daffodils, of experiencing attractions towards people outside our usual "zone" of attraction - to varying degrees. The question is how much of the entire package is there? Romantic feelings? Sexual attraction? Infatuation? Companionship? Emotional compatibility? And of course, we all know gay people who have forced themselves into intimacy with partners to whom they were not attracted. It's life, and life is weird that way. It doesn't make you NOT what you are.

My best friend from high school is a gay man who professes to absolutely love sex with women. He defines as gay instead of bi, because in his own words, "With a man, I finally understand what all the love songs are about." In other words, only part of the total is there when he's with women, but with men it's the whole thing. I think he's the exception, but I've never taken a poll so I don't know!

It will be interesting to see if scientists ever figure all this out. Apparently, there is quite some difference for the most part, between males and females, with more females being genuinely bisexual, and more males being monosexual (gay or straight, but NOT bi).

Funny I missed that Dotti was bi - I had assumed she was lesbian! (Bad Zerbie). Here's how I came out as bi:

My own experience is that I don't have a sexual orientation. I have sexuality. And it isn't oriented. I went through a What Am I? phase a couple of times. The second time was after I had come out publicly as a lesbian. A few years later I fell for a guy - and I fell HARD!! Heheh, I was so embarassed! Can you imagine?

But in a way I had my wish: I had wished I had a chance to do the coming out thing over again without all the angst, without condemming the feelings of attraction, and without wondering about what the feelings meant for 5 years. And here it was, another chance. I said damned if I was gonna make the same mistake again, just because it was a man this time! So for the next year I was openly lesbian-identified but also open about having suddenly discovered an attraction to men. One day someone who had just met me (and was interested!) asked me: "So, Zerbie, what is your sexual orientation? Are you bisexual?" And that was when the light dawned: OH! THAT'S WHAT I AM!!!!!!!!!! So I said, "Yeah, I AM bi - how did YOU know?"

[SolInvictus]

If y'all get a chance, I recommend reading Kinsey's famous study on sexuality and sexual orientation. His most noted books are Sexuality in the Human Male and Sexuality in the Human Female. A recent movie titled Kinsey is a biography of the man & his studies.

Based on my understanding, human sexuality is defined on a scale of 0 to 6
(O being exclusively heterosexual, 3-4 bisexual, and 6 as exclusively homosexual). Acc. to the study, most people fall into 1 to 3 category, which is the experience or latent to moderate attraction to persons of the same sex. Four is probably exclusively bisexual; Five as dominant same-sex attraction with latent heterosexual attraction. His studies, written in the
1950-60's, were quite controversial at the time (and now), but a very thorough and well informed study. Unfortunantly, the Religious Right and other extreme conservative groups seem to enjoy ignoring these studies and its data.

[Zerbie]

Actually, Sol, I did a research paper and thesis on the Kinsey studies for my high school honors program. Heheheh. Always an interest of mine. . . .

[SolInvictus]

Cool! Thats great Zerbie and its too bad more people aren't interested in reading Kinsey's studies.

[Zerbie]

Lately, I have been pondering the matter of internalized homophobia again. Wondering just how prevalent it is. Would love to hear more peoples' stories about how they have dealt with it.

What was the process like? How did you deal with any conflicts you may have had if you believed homosexuality itself was wrong, but you found yourself drawn to same-sex relationships?

[pnggrad79]

I was 27. married and pregnant when I met my now wife. At the risk of sounding like the plot line to a Lifetime movie, she was 16 at the time, and although I felt an immense attraction to her, WE DID NOTHING until 12 years later. I wasn't unhappy in my marriage, but it was missing something and I knew it. When she came along, and as I got to know her, I knew I was in love, but pushed it down, repressed it, ignored it. I thought to myself it was preposterous, I couldn't be in love with another female let alone one so young. So for 12 years I ran from her, tried to define my attraction to her as everything but what it was, and then finally, when she ws 27, and I was 38, I admitted how I felt about her to her and she said she felt the same, decided to call it what it was and I asked her to move in with me. We are still here 5 years later. Got married in Niagara Falls, Canada in 2004.

Am I a lesbian? Maybe I am not a card-carrying lesbian (a term my daughter used), in other words, would I have a relationship with another woman? Who knows? I do know this-my world turned upside down when I met her and I never felt like that before about a man. I love life with her, I never knew it could be so good. But am I generally attracted to women? I don't think I have ever allowed myself to be attracted to only women. I think I look at the person, not what gender they are. Bottom line-if loving her means I am a lesbian, then I guess I am and I am not ashamed of it. I wouldn't trade it or go back for anything. I have what I want. And I won't go back to a man because society has a problem with it. I didn't choose to fall in love with a woman. It happened and that's all I know.

[SBP]

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

Cool! Thats great Zerbie and its too bad more people aren't interested in reading Kinsey's studies.

Sol, for the probable reason as to why they aren't......ask Zerbie about our ongoing discussion regarding SHAME in another thread~!

Keep up your great insightful posts, my friend~!

Peace 2 U~!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

I was 27. married and pregnant when I met my now wife. At the risk of sounding like the plot line to a Lifetime movie, she was 16 at the time, and although I felt an immense attraction to her, WE DID NOTHING until 12 years later. I wasn't unhappy in my marriage, but it was missing something and I knew it. When she came along, and as I got to know her, I knew I was in love, but pushed it down, repressed it, ignored it. I thought to myself it was preposterous, I couldn't be in love with another female let alone one so young. So for 12 years I ran from her, tried to define my attraction to her as everything but what it was, and then finally, when she ws 27, and I was 38, I admitted how I felt about her to her and she said she felt the same, decided to call it what it was and I asked her to move in with me. We are still here 5 years later. Got married in Niagara Falls, Canada in 2004.

Am I a lesbian? Maybe I am not a card-carrying lesbian (a term my daughter used), in other words, would I have a relationship with another woman? Who knows? I do know this-my world turned upside down when I met her and I never felt like that before about a man. I love life with her, I never knew it could be so good. But am I generally attracted to women? I don't think I have ever allowed myself to be attracted to only women. I think I look at the person, not what gender they are. Bottom line-if loving her means I am a lesbian, then I guess I am and I am not ashamed of it. I wouldn't trade it or go back for anything. I have what I want. And I won't go back to a man because society has a problem with it. I didn't choose to fall in love with a woman. It happened and that's all I know.

Fascinating!! Orientationally, sounds a lot like my experience. The person, not their gender, not even their body: tho there still needs to be some kind of an attraction. But it isn't attached to one sex or the other.

It's another illustration of how labels break down and don't do justice to the richness of what's really there.

Amazing story with the waiting and the age difference. My hubby and I have an age difference too, I'm the younger one. In fact, I had a much harder time accepting the age difference than I did accepting the orientation-swing, cuz by then I knew I was bi, and was open to a partner of either sex. Just wasn't expecting such an age difference.

[Vanessa White]

All of you here: What stories of courage, and self-realization and being true to who you really are. It is definitely about who you are attracted to, not the gender of the person, I firmly agree with that. Although, I am a total lover of women- so I therefore feel totally comfortable with the label, or title, of lesbian, I totally know that I have had the good fortune that the majority of persons that I have been attracted to in my lifetime have been women. And, I am so thankful for that (don't take offense, my male friends, here!) I mean, I think that identifying or at least considering yourself as a bisexual person adds to the challenges that we all face for not complying with what the supposed "norm" of society is. Today, in this moment, I feel so grateful for being who I am, but also for getting to know all of you for who you are all, and your diverse experiences and life-changing events! Life is for living, and living in its full truth, not as a half-truth or a lie of sorts. Amen to that!! With love and peace to all of you, as always, Vanessa

[Zerbie]

Thank you Vanessa.

Life is for living. Not as a half truth. I like that a great deal, V girl!

I will want to remember that. Would make a good signature line, ya know.

[Vanessa White]

Hey Zerb: Lately, my whole philosophy has been related to standing in my truth. it may not relate specifically to this thread, but it sorta does. I have been speaking my mind to many important people in my life, even some of those conversations being at a certain amount of emotional risk to me. However, I don't really know how to not stand in my truth, and then speak it, without feeling like I am cutting myself short somehow, or being a fake. I have to be truthful in order to feel like I always am putting forth the most that I can in any situation. Anything less feels like a half truth to me, and if I am only speaking a half truth, can the true outcome really come to be at all, until I speak it fully? You will have to excuse me, I have been enjoying some Chardonnay tonight to wind down, so I may be a little wordy and rambling!!!

[Vanessa White]

I changed my signature, thanks for the suggestions. Will your response possibly be your 1,000th post?! Enjoy your toaster oven! PS Keep posting to your heart's content- I love seeing you around here......

[SBP]

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

Hey Zerb: Lately, my whole philosophy has been related to standing in my truth. it may not relate specifically to this thread, but it sorta does. I have been speaking my mind to many important people in my life, even some of those conversations being at a certain amount of emotional risk to me. However, I don't really know how to not stand in my truth, and then speak it, without feeling like I am cutting myself short somehow, or being a fake. I have to be truthful in order to feel like I always am putting forth the most that I can in any situation. Anything less feels like a half truth to me, and if I am only speaking a half truth, can the true outcome really come to be at all, until I speak it fully? You will have to excuse me, I have been enjoying some Chardonnay tonight to wind down, so I may be a little wordy and rambling!!!

Vanessa, Vanessa, Vanessa...way to go girl~!! You just shot straight (no pun intended~! ;o) to the top of my "Heroes" list~! Right up there with Zerbie, and lately Mia too~!

Heroes are not extraordinary people, just ordinary people who DO extraordinary things!

Life is risk. Someone who takes no risks never loses, but they never WIN either. They cannot grow unless they dare to leave their "comfort zone".
It is safe to say that everyone fears risk to some extent. You wouldn't be human if you didn't. The difference, is that heroes like you, don't let that fear cripple them. They MAKE it empower them. And the more they do, the easier it becomes.

Like Shakespeare said, "To thine own self be true."

I think you rock~!!!