Wheaton's Response

[u-dog]

with the one that Emproph started this morning and about which I have been thinking a lot all day. We are thinking about this struggle TO NARROWLY. The assault of the RRs, the neo-cons, the theocrats is not just an assault on GLBT people and our rights. IT IS AN ALL OUT ASSAULT ON THE INTELLECTUAL AND POLITICAL VALUES OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT ITSELF.

Think about it. In the moral realm its the assault on GLBT persons and rights based on a pre-enlightenment, pre-modern "hermeneutic" or "way of reading the Bible. It also gets embodied in the areas of SEX EDUCATION and Reproductive Rights

In the Scientific Realm it is an assault not just on the theory of Evolution but on the whole scientific method and worldview based on a pre-enlightenment understand of scripture that says that if the bible says one thing and science another then the bible is right.

In the Political Realm it is an allout assault on THE COURTS, THE CONSTITUTION, THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and our educational system (promotion of private schools and homeschooling - sytematic defunding of public education ... vilification of teachers etc.)

OUR ENTIRE SOCIETY IS BEING DISASSEMBLED AND REMODELED BY THESE PEOPLE. The coalitions required to stop this will need to include moderate and progressive religious forces, scientifice and intellectual forces, political and social forces

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by u-dog

with the one that Emproph started this morning and about which I have been thinking a lot all day. We are thinking about this struggle TO NARROWLY. The assault of the RRs, the neo-cons, the theocrats is not just an assault on GLBT people and our rights. IT IS AN ALL OUT ASSAULT ON THE INTELLECTUAL AND POLITICAL VALUES OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT ITSELF.

I agree with approaching our struggle too narrow - although at the moment I can't come up with a specific idea to approach it any broader. It seems we are mostly defending the next attack as it becomes apparent. In other words, GLBT people are in "defense" mode instead of "offense".

Think about it. In the moral realm its the assault on GLBT persons and rights based on a pre-enlightenment, pre-modern "hermeneutic" or "way of reading the Bible. It also gets embodied in the areas of SEX EDUCATION and Reproductive Rights

The "debate is over" doesn't always work well. It's over for us, for sure (for the most part), but somehow those who feel we are 'sinners' always bring it back to the same issue - our sin and sinful ways - and start the debate back up. Maybe we need some specific techniques to respond to the recurring debate? Interestingly, although the christian right/fundamentalist/extremist folk have no problem saying that to legalize same sex marriage is a threat to traditional marriage and family values, they are consistently unable to provide specific examples of how that would happen. Perhaps some fuel for thinking of responses?

In the Scientific Realm it is an assault not just on the theory of Evolution but on the whole scientific method and worldview based on a pre-enlightenment understand of scripture that says that if the bible says one thing and science another then the bible is right.

Would be interesting to get a general idea of how they feel about the Bible verse telling them the sun revolves around the earth?? I know they believe the donkey actually talked. Hmmm, any others??

In the Political Realm it is an allout assault on THE COURTS, THE CONSTITUTION, THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and our educational system (promotion of private schools and homeschooling - sytematic defunding of public education ... vilification of teachers etc.)

This is the tough one. I think it's going to come down to reaching as many people as possible, demonstrating that our lives are not basically any different than theirs, there is nothing abnormal or strange about us, that isn't present in all of humankind. However, the power the Christian right wingers have in politics is incredible and quite scary. How do we go about dismantling that power? I believe it's going to take reaching the people who vote for the politicians, and going out on the limb to vote for those we actually want to see in office and not because we don't feel they could win. It's also going to mean becoming more active in approaching our politicians, as GLBT people and as a unified community (thereby indicating some power ourselves), and trying to humanize it all. I believe while the moral and scientific issues are key, this one is the key'ist'.

OUR ENTIRE SOCIETY IS BEING DISASSEMBLED AND REMODELED BY THESE PEOPLE. The coalitions required to stop this will need to include moderate and progressive religious forces, scientifice and intellectual forces, political and social forces

Excellent fodder for thought U-dog.

[tdogg]

Darn, I didn't mean that I agree that the approach should be narrow, but that it is narrow and we need to somehow broaden it. Just wanted to clarify!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

with the one that Emproph started this morning and about which I have been thinking a lot all day. We are thinking about this struggle TO NARROWLY. The assault of the RRs, the neo-cons, the theocrats is not just an assault on GLBT people and our rights. IT IS AN ALL OUT ASSAULT ON THE INTELLECTUAL AND POLITICAL VALUES OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT ITSELF.

Think about it. In the moral realm its the assault on GLBT persons and rights based on a pre-enlightenment, pre-modern "hermeneutic" or "way of reading the Bible. It also gets embodied in the areas of SEX EDUCATION and Reproductive Rights

In the Scientific Realm it is an assault not just on the theory of Evolution but on the whole scientific method and worldview based on a pre-enlightenment understand of scripture that says that if the bible says one thing and science another then the bible is right.

In the Political Realm it is an allout assault on THE COURTS, THE CONSTITUTION, THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and our educational system (promotion of private schools and homeschooling - sytematic defunding of public education ... vilification of teachers etc.)

OUR ENTIRE SOCIETY IS BEING DISASSEMBLED AND REMODELED BY THESE PEOPLE. The coalitions required to stop this will need to include moderate and progressive religious forces, scientifice and intellectual forces, political and social forces

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Indeed, it IS about disassembling the Enlightenment.

And I just spent a semester studying that era, and I can tell you, these same exact conversations were going on in the 18th century, too. In much the same words.

"God made no creature for the purpose of condemnation. I was born attracted to other men!"
"Sinner - you can't possibly be born that way!"
20 wagonloads of brush.
200 faggots
One torch, and a day's wages paid to the guy who held the torch to the pile.

[davidb]

So here is Mel White's suggestion:

"Second, we must refuse to cooperate any longer in the studies or debates. Continuing in the debate implies that the debate is legitimate. It is not. We should not only refuse to cooperate in these studies and debates, we should oppose, boycott and protest them. To say, "I will no longer participate let alone be the subject of your study or your debate" is an act of liberation and humanization. To say, "I know who I am, and if you want to know, ask me; don't tell me," is an act of self-actualization and integrity. Let us decide now and forever. The debate has ended. The verdict is in. God has created us equal - and we will settle for nothing less."

This thread was started to debate Stanton Jones's rebuttal to Soulforce. By debating this work are we not implying that the debate is legitimate.

Or when P-Kay wants to debate us, instead of debating (because that implies the debate is legitimate), we could say, "I will no longer participate let alone be the subject of your study or your debate...I know who I am, and if you want to know, ask me; don't tell me."

See what I am driving at. I'm trying to reconcile our engagement with the adversary with what Dr. White is saying in this article.

This is exactly the language I think we need to find in the discussions we're faced with here with our adversarial brothers and sisters. To bridge the ideological divide is no small task. Not that it isn't worthwhile. I just don't know how we get there.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Interestingly, although the christian right/fundamentalist/extremist folk have no problem saying that to legalize same sex marriage is a threat to traditional marriage and family values, they are consistently unable to provide specific examples of how that would happen. Perhaps some fuel for thinking of responses?

I had to upload this just for you tdogg. 'Been sittin on my dvr for MONTHS.

John Stemberger of the florida4marriage anti-gay marriage amendment, using the nature of cause and effect as the explanation as to HOW gay-marriage affects his marriage.

~~
Case study alert everyone.
~~

He is asked the question point blank: "How does same sex marriage affect your marriage," but by the time he gets around to answering it, you forget the-entire-context-of-the-question, and he's able to get away with murder (by using the example of suicide)

Warning: this is a live case study of true evil:

John Stemberger, starring in:

Gay marriage = blow my brains out (2 min)

PLENTY of fodder there, including threadworthy, but you've got to hand it to him, that was a performance worthy of an Oscar. If Oscars were spelled O-b-f-u-s-c-a-t-i-o-n.

That's actually some good stuff, 'specially that opening line. "because that equal rights thing...which always comes up.." That poor woman, she's in shambles.

Arthleen Rippy. What-do-ya say we invite her into our conversation?

How 'bout Stan, shouldn't we invite Stan too?

PS, not ready to invite John Stemberger yet...

[BrentRichards]

This guy should run for office ... he's got BS down pat.

"Suicide has costs, if I blow my brains out, somebody's got to clean it up, there's a cost."

Wow, now that's a compassionate Christian view of things.

[Emproph]

Not much to go on yet, just a heads up.

From Ex-Gay Watch:

Study of Exodus Participants To Be Released Next Week

A press release by InterVarsity Press gives specifics about the study on which we reported here and here.

That second "here" link had this to say:

An anonymous source said they have contact with someone participating in the study, called the Thomas Project, out of Wheaton College, and the study consists of questions asked once a year by phone. This participant also noted that the questions were oversimplified, requiring basic responses where they felt detailed explanations were needed. We have good reason to trust this contact, though we will respect their request for anonymity.

There are unconfirmed reports that the study has a sample of as few as 100 to 150 participants.

If, and that's a big if, those last parts in bold are to be believed, then this study will have about as much mainstream clout as the Spitzer study. The press release however, implies otherwise.

More info at BoxTurtleBulletin, here and here.

[Emproph]

There's tons of info out there already on this, but if you're interested in keeping up with headless monsters running around out there, this is very likely to be one of them to "prove" that we can all "change."

It's worse than useless, as I've attempted to help illustrate from my last post at Ex-Gay Watch:

It seems they’ve taken a lesson from the Intelligent Design crowd. Poke holes, find the “missing links,” and the need for proof won’t matter anymore.

Teach the Controversy. This is perhaps the grandest example of that yet.

Just something to be aware of, and this'll be going on for awhile, so a couple of sites to put on your favorites:

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/

[Daniel]

Interesting stuff on Turtlebox. I smiled....well....actually laughed when I read the following in an article there that quoted Christianity Today.

We believe the individuals who presented themselves as heterosexual success stories at Time 3 are heterosexual in some meaningful but complicated sense of the term.

As the author duly notes: complicated in a Larry Craig kind of way.

Teach the controversy.......indeed.

You are so right Emproph.