Looking Ahead: '08 elections

[Emproph]

I wanted to suggest this as a political frame in light of liberal~Republican Rudy Giuliani’s recent flip-flop on civil unions for gays:

In a startling departure from his previously stated position on civil unions, Mayor Giuliani came out to The New York Sun yesterday evening in opposition to the civil union law just passed by the New Hampshire state Senate.

Other GOP hopefuls like John McCain have done similarly to cull the conservative vote:

When McCain ran for president the last time, he denounced Falwell as one of America's "agents of intolerance." But now that McCain is gearing up to run for president as the GOP's establishment candidate, he has told Falwell that he spoke "in haste" in 2000.

And even Mitt Romney:

"In seeking the support of the Log Cabin Republican Club, Romney wrote them a letter promising that 'as we seek to establish full equality for America's gay and lesbian citizens, I will provide more effective leadership than my opponent.' " [His opponent at the time was Sen. Ted Kennedy, perhaps the foremost advocate of homosexual rights in the U.S. Senate.]
- Boston Globe, 10/17/1994

Obviously this is all politics. If gay marriage, abortion (and shooting up heroin for that matter) were socially popular, they’d all be coming out in support of those things too.

Point being, they are pandering to their THEOCRATIC base. The base rarely if ever call themselves theocrats. The usual catch phrases are, ‘This is a Christian nation,’ and ‘The myth of the separation of church and state.’ And they are becoming more and more brazen about their insistence of this.

My latest Focus on the Family email is promoting a video:

America’s Godly Heritage
The separation of church and state. You hear that thrown around a lot these days, but what were the true intentions of our Founding Fathers?

My observation is this. Theocracy is the antithesis of democracy. Anti-democracy is anti-American. Thus, to pander to theocrats is anti-American.

These candidates are running on an anti-American platform. In their bid to represent and lead America, they are catering to THE most traitorous influences among us. These candidates are traitors.

Despite the shrill sound of such a statement, as I’ve said before in the Tolerance thread (as far as the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality being the promotion of our genocide), there is little if any “political” spin involved: They openly pander to their theocratic base.

One doesn’t necessarily need to be divisive 'sounding' in sounding this alarm, but the treachery aspect of it needs to be understood when doing so.

My suggestions are that we get the word out to start asking these candidates, very simply, whether or not they believe in the separation of church and state, or whether or not they believe this is a “Christian nation.” If the answer is yes, then that’s a red flag for us/progressive/democrats etc., if no, then that’s a red flag for the theocrats.

Certainly they will dance around the subject, but these and similar questions need to be asked. This is a division that already exists, and it’s imperative that we expose it for what it is.

The simplicity of this understanding came to me as I was waking up last night. I got up, turned on C-SPAN, and by meaningless coincidence caught the tail-end of Nancy Pelosi speaking in ‘Reaction to White House Meeting on Spending Bill.’

I think she said it best:

Originally Posted by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi

For whatever our differences, we owe it to the American people to find our common ground. Of course we must stand our ground if we can’t find it, but we must strive to find that common ground.

I see this as an opportunity being handed to us on a silver platter, let’s not waste it this time.

You beckon to theocrats, you are a traitor.

[u-dog]

Honestly, Emproph, I am coming to the same conclusion. We may need to moderate our language in order to avoid seeming like conspiracy theorists, but we DO need to call em like we see em. theocrats are fascists and fascists are the enemy of democracy.

I have been thinking the same thing in the context of my own denomination. There are elements in our church who name themselves "conservative" but they are in fact "fundamentalists" and need to be named as such and their opinions and beliefs need to be labeled and condemned as such.

We need to clearly define our terms and then demand straight answers to the questions: "is this who you are? Is this what you believe? How does what you believe differ from this?"

No matter how fast or how agilely they dance we need to nail their feet to the floor til we get an answer.

[dsdrane]

Agreed!

Harrumph!

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Agreed!

Harrumph!

You mockin' me boy?

[dsdrane]

Would U stop being mean to me!

I'm agreeing with you, dammit!

[u-dog]

My sister (who is a wonderful person and whom I love more than life itself) accuses me of being a "HARUMPHER" and "Harumphing" when I get passionate about stuff. So I was hearing in your words an echo of an old tape.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

theocrats are fascists and fascists are the enemy of democracy.

swer.

Who was it who said, just a few years ago?: "Christianity is NOT a democracy." I wanted to say Dobson, but I might be wrong and don't want to misrepresent someone, especially in public - I think it may have been one o' the other guys. Said so, publicly. It has been publicly ADMITTED that they want to replace democracy with THEIR version of the Bible.

Anyone catch who it was who said that?

[BrentRichards]

I'm very disappointed in Rudy. To be clear, he has not "technically" changed his position ... he opposed the NH bill because he sees it as equating civil unions with marriage, which he has always opposed. He, unfortunately, sees civil unions as a "separate but equal" solution. Nonetheless, I don't like the hedging this statement seems to represent. Sigh.

Has anyone in the field come out in support of full marriage rights? Not even Hillary has done that, has she?

[Emproph]

Google link:

Originally Posted by Zerbie

"Christianity is NOT a democracy."

Anyone catch who it was who said that?

I haven't checked them all out, but I especially liked this one.

[Marcia]

I wrote that. How did you find it? And I can't figure out if you liked it or didn't like it. 'Cause I tried to make it clear that I have no problem with GLBT folks; I'm just trying to figure out how one can be Christian and ignore what the Bible says about it.

[sjbouza]

What I find so un-nerving is the fact that the people, like my family, cant see past what they are being told. I mean really. They regularly get stuff from FOTF and in almost every thing that they receive is a plea for money. Come on people wake up an smell the coffee cuz its burning. I see James Dobson and his like, ie the Christian Fundamentalists, as the newest version of the KKK. If they "loved" us so much then why do they feel they have to lie about us? Why cant they just start telling the truth. They just want your money so they can make the Lexus payment this month.

I emailed my aunt, after I told her I was gay, on Monday the "False Focus On The Family" form this site for her to read. I havent heard anything from her yet. As I said they are devout followers of every "Godly word" that Dobson speaks.

These people really scare me. How much influence that they have over presidential candidates is getting out of control. If you are a candidate it is getting to the point you dont want to take a stand on any "hot topic" publicly for fear of how the Christian Fundamentalists will slander you in the publics eyes.

I agree with you all. As much as some want it to be, America is not a country that was founded on Christian principles. Wasnt it in the Treaty of Tripoli that Washington stated that "America is not a Christian nation"? Forgive me if I got that wrong, but I know it was said by someone in that treaty. They just cant accept that others dont want to believe the same way that they do. If you dont then you are damned to hell. Well guess what, Christianity is a very new religion compared to most others. In fact I believe it is the youngest. So who is to say we are right and everyone else is wrong. Even within our own religion there are so many different beliefs. So who among us is right and who is wrong. Well according to the CF, if you arent with em you are wrong. How high and mighty does that sound to the rest of you?

Sorry I got off on a tangent. I have just about had it with all the crap these days. I cant seem to go a day without hearing something from FOTF or whatever about how homosexuals are destroying America. It is really pissin me off!!!!

I digress. I do agree with you all though. We need to start standing up and calling these people out of their safe little shells to answer for what they are doing and saying. Make them commit one way or another. Be real and represent the people, and by that I mean ALL THE PEOPLE EQUALLY!!!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Marcia

I wrote that. How did you find it? And I can't figure out if you liked it or didn't like it. 'Cause I tried to make it clear that I have no problem with GLBT folks; I'm just trying to figure out how one can be Christian and ignore what the Bible says about it.

Hi Marcia,

It looks like Emproph found and linked to your blog?

Not being a gay christian, I can't really address your question about how someone can be gay and "ignore" what the Bible says except to say: I haven't met anyone yet who is both christian and gay who IGNORED the Bible AT ALL!!
Quite the opposite! A lot of study, contemplation, prayer, meditation, internal and external searching for answers and understanding went into reconciling their sexual orientations with their faith. What I see is, they understand the Bible to be saying something OTHER than what you have probably interpreted it as saying.

I'll go away now and let the christian folks here speak for themselves.

[simpleman]

I'd be interested to hear about this. Don't take this as snide, but I am really curious as to how this can be reconciled.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. "
1 Corinthians 6

"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Romans 1:27

[u-dog]

I AM a gay Christian. I have been reading the Bible seriously for over thirty years. I am aware of all of the passages that some Christians use to condemn me and people like me. I have studied very closely in many translations, I have consulted people with working knowlege of the original languages, I have read countless books written about those passages. and...

I don't believe that the Bible addresses my sexuality at all. I don't believe that the Bible condemns committed , covenanted, faithful same-sex relationships AT ALL.

The thing that I don't understand is WHY SOME CHRISTIANS THINK THAT IT DOES.

Actually, I do understand why. Its because ... they want to.

But why do they want to? What is it that non-gay Christians are afraid of that makes them want the Bible to condemn gay people. Do you have a theory about that Marcia?

Dave

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by simpleman

I'd be interested to hear about this. Don't take this as snide, but I am really curious as to how this can be reconciled.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. "
1 Corinthians 6

"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Romans 1:27

It doesn't really fit the subject of this one, does it? Maybe if you start a thread of its own, you would get more responses and not run the risk of derailing this one.

Just a thought. It's up to you, of course.

[Dash]

Oh! Oh! Oh!!! Folks! Folks! Remember what we practiced! Here's your chance! Nonviolent!

And.....
....

GO!!!

Do me proud!!

[oh, aren't they so cute when you send 'em out on their own into the world!]

[u-dog]

How'd I do Dad? Did I do good? huh?

[Dash]

Originally Posted by u-dog

How'd I do Dad? Did I do good? huh?

Good dog! You get a treat!

[simpleman]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I AM a gay Christian. I have been reading the Bible seriously for over thirty years. I am aware of all of the passages that some Christians use to condemn me and people like me. I have studied very closely in many translations, I have consulted people with working knowlege of the original languages, I have read countless books written about those passages. and...

I don't believe that the Bible addresses my sexuality at all. I don't believe that the Bible condemns committed , covenanted, faithful same-sex relationships AT ALL.

The thing that I don't understand is WHY SOME CHRISTIANS THINK THAT IT DOES.

Actually, I do understand why. Its because ... they want to.

But why do they want to? What is it that non-gay Christians are afraid of that makes them want the Bible to condemn gay people. Do you have a theory about that Marcia?

Dave

Take it easy now, I just wanted to know. I don't have enough knowledge of translations, and languages, and so on and so forth to even argue with you, and I doubt Marcia does either (if she does, she should jump right in).

But it is this very reason, my friend, that Christians want to believe that homosexuality is wrong. Your run-of-the-mill Christian hasn't gone through hours and hours of exhaustive study of ancient languages and the nuances thereof. They just read the Bible in the hotel room, and it has those verses that I quoted in it. They want to believe it, because they want to believe what the Bible says, because it is supposed to be the infallible word of God and so on and so forth, so that's why they want to believe it.

[dsdrane]

Wait just one cotton-pickin' minute!

Lookee cheer:

Originally Posted by u-dog

K -- you've had your little joke, now show us your stuff!!

Originally Posted by u-dog

How'd I do Dad? Did I do good? huh?

MmmmHMMM! Y'all see what I'm talkin' about??

U got a lotta nerve!

Some of us are tryin' to talk about politics, and you gotta bust in with your new dog thing and gettin' treats and such.

Do not ask for whom the bell tolls, Honey, 'cause it f@ckin' tolls for thee!