Calling All Atheists

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Good question.

So up until about a year ago I believed that God existed without ever questioning it. But then I started hanging around a fundamentalist buddy of mine who had some far-out beliefs about God. It made me start thinking about my own beliefs.

The first thing I did was read the Bible.
I started doing research on evidence that God actually existed. I found none. Zero. Zippo. Not one single speck of credible evidence that an invisible force exists somewhere out there beyond the clouds controlling everything.

The only thing that I found that God existed was that other people "believed" that God existed. People had "faith" that God existed. And faith is what people have when they have no evidence to back up what they believe. It's like having faith that there's gold at the end of a rainbow. Nobody has ever seen the gold, but does that mean it doesn't exists? YES!!

As far as evidence that God exists? I'd need to see him with my own eyes. I'd need to hear him. I'd need to see him do magic that can't be disproven through scientific research.

If there's a god....where is he? Why is he so mysterious?

The Bible says that God demands that we believe in him or we'll spend eternity in hellish torture. Eternity!! Not a week. Not a month. Not a year. Not even a hundred years. But eternity. Forever. Pain with no end.

God tells us in the Bible that animals can talk and that burning bushes and snakes give advice. Then he threatens us with eternal pain and agony if we don't believe in him. Then he hides from us.

Yet, he loves us.

Sure. That makes perfect sense.

Rick

Yeah I've had trouble with this idea that all you have to do is read a book and you'll know. That's silly.

Rick - I love your post! It is WONDERFUL that you are thinking and asking questions and doing all this great stuff! I'm a questioning, searching phase myself right now.

Don't stop there. There is more. There is more than eye-level evidence of existence. I don't see the electrical wiring that runs from the wall-switch to the ceiling lamps, but when I flick the switch a light goes on, whether I see the wiring or no. Faith, for me, is like trusting the behind-the-scenes wiring when I flick the light switch.

All the real, true teachers (and they are rare in this world) tell us to look within. The real teachers will not ask us to just read a book and believe it. They demand that we do the work of thinking, praying, searching, using our intellect, and so on, to find what's really there or not there, for ourselves.

[u-dog]

Rick,

I like you a lot. Your contributions to this forum are always right on target and always helpful. I say this by way of saying that I don't have any desire to change you. I like you the way you are.

I also don't have any desire to debate with you about the existence of God in a way that we both end up backed out onto limbs that are unable to support our weight.

So having said that, I am going to throw out some questions and perspectives. They really are questions and not rhetorical devices.

1. The six year old would be correct to point out that Shrek (the story about talking donkeys) is fiction. Would he also be correct if he said that "Shrek the Movie lies about the verbal abilities of donkeys in general and Eddie Murphy's character in particular"? In other words is it accurate to say that "Shrek" is false? I would argue that it is not. Much in "Shrek" is true to my experience. For instance, it is true that not every one who LOOKS like an ogre actually IS an ogre. It is true that external beauty is not always an indicator of inner beauty, nor is external ugliness an indicator of inner ugliness. It is true to my experience that intolerant parents often can be brought to a place of acceptance. It is also true to my experience that a small group of faithful friends can overcome powerful and well organized evil. There is also much true about the story of Balaam's ass. The student newspaper at my seminary was called "Balaam's Ass" because it was always telling inconvenient truths that the administration didn't want to hear -- things that the editors believed God wanted them to hear. It is true to my experience that God finds ALL MANNER OF UNLIKELY WAYS to make his will known to me. So far no talking Donkeys but.... it ain't over til the fat lady sings so who knows!

2. The reason that I asked the question "What evidence would you expect to see?" Is that if you begin with the idea of an infinite and eternal God... you wouldn't EXPECT to see evidence WITHIN the framework of Space/Time of the existence of the eternal/infinite that couldn't be explained naturally in some way. If you could find evidence (foot prints, fingerprints, whatever) within space/time that would mean that God is inside and NOT eternal and infinite at all. Zeus, were he real, would leave footprints. YHWH would not. To say that God is eternal means more than just REALLY REALLY OLD. It means that God exists outside of time and experiences all the moments of time in one eternal now. For God, the moment of the Big bang and the present moment and the moment when the universe does whatever it is that the universe is going to do at the end, are all equally real and equally NOW to him/her. It would also mean that all of the infinite number of possible universes would be equally real to God. the one where I kill myself as a teen when I realize I'm gay, and this one where I marry a woman and have kids, and the one where I find a boyfriend and live happily ever after.) It would also mean that any "intervention" of God in the universe (multiverse?) would be present at the moment of the big bang.

3. Such a God cannot be deduced from evidence. if he/she COULD then it wouldn't be God at all. Such a God can only be known by SELF REVELATION and then only in part.

4. I am a Christian and believe that the Infinite and Eternal God DOES exist. I believe that he/she manifested him/herself in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. I believe this because many reliable witnesses (my grandmother, my folks, my brother, JS Bach, The Bible, BrentRichard, Dumas Otterson (a NASA scientist and my jr High Sunday School teacher) told me so. For 50 years I have lived "AS though it were true" that Jesus was the Son of God who gave his life willingly for all and was raised from the Dead in order to destroy the power of death. My experience confirms the reality of these claims... but doesn't "prove" it. This is how I understand "Faith" Faith=living as though certain things are true. The nature of the process is that each person must "live as though certain things are true" for themselves. In order to "know" that the water will hold you up... you have to jump in for yourself. That's why there is no "evidence". The truth of Christianity is not primarily propositional... its relational. You CAN'T know that God exists. You can ONLY know God.

5. here is a poem by the German Theologian, Dorothee Soelle who says this stuff better than I:

I don't, as they put it, believe in god
but to him i find I can't say no
hard as I try
take a look at him in the garden
when his friends ran out on him
his face wet with fear
and the spit of his enemies
him I have to believe

him I can't bear to abandon
to the great disregard for life
to the moronic rhythm of work leisure work
to the boredom we fail to dispel
in cars in beds in stores
that's how it is they say
uncertain and not uncritically
what do you want?
but I subscribe to the other hypothesis
which is his story

that's not how it is he said
for god is
and he staked his life on this claim
thinking about it I find
one can't let him pay alone
and so I believe him about god
the way one believes another's tears
or marriage or no for an answer
that's how you'll learn to believe him
about life promised to all.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

R
2. 4. I am a Christian and believe that the Infinite and Eternal God DOES exist. I believe that he/she manifested him/herself in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. I believe this because many reliable witnesses (my grandmother, my folks, my brother, JS Bach, The Bible, told me so.

. You CAN'T know that God exists. You can ONLY know God.
all.

I just love that you said Bach told you God exists.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I just love that you said Bach told you God exists.

The Magnificat is a pretty convincing argument... especially when you sing it! And its REALLY hard to listen to the Pasacaglia and fugue in D minor and not see God !

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by u-dog

And its REALLY hard to listen to the Pasacaglia and fugue in D minor and not see God !

...and sound waves travel through the air, one might even say that love is in the air...

[progressive4christ]

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, then live my life as if there isn't, and find out there is"

[progressive4christ]

Do we have proof and reason why hate and love ever exist and why we use it. Why do humans feel it necessary to hate and love, so should it not exist?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

The Magnificat is a pretty convincing argument... especially when you sing it! And its REALLY hard to listen to the Pasacaglia and fugue in D minor and not see God !

That's the first Bach I ever sang. Truly enjoyed it! The Quia Respexit remains one of my favorite pieces ever.

What part did you sing?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

That's the first Bach I ever sang. Truly enjoyed it! The Quia Respexit remains one of my favorite pieces ever.

What part did you sing?

Baritone. I sang it with the larger "town and gown" choir when I was in College. It was kind of a heavy/plodding performance. My son sang it last year with the smaller more select chorus and it just... DANCED. It was awesome!

[Rick336]

Quotes on faith and religion:

"Faith is corrosive to the human mind. If someone genuinely believes that it is right to believe things without reason or evidence then they are open to every kind of dogma, whim, coercion, or dangerous infectious idea that's around. If someone is convinced that it is acceptable to base their beliefs on what is written in an ancient book, or what some teacher tells them they must believe, then they will have no true freedom of thought; they will be trapped by their faith into inconsistency and untruths because they are unable to throw out false ideas when evidence against them comes along."
- Author Sue Blackmore


"Faith is believing what you know aint so." - Mark Twain

"You cannot convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


"I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion." - James Buchanan


"It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." - W.K. Clifford

"One of the most frightening things in the Western world, and this country in particular, is the number of people who believe in things that are scientifically false. If someone tells me that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, in my opinion he should see a psychiatrist." - Frances Crick


"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." - Richard Dawkins

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." - Abraham Lincoln

"Faith means the will to avoid knowing the truth." - Friedrich Nietzsche

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire

"A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." - Mark Twain

"The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors." - Sam Harris

"If devotion to truth is the hallmark of morality, then there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking......The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind." - Ayn Rand


Rick

[progressive4christ]

why do Some atheist work so hard to make people not believe; is not that the same as those trying to make someone make you believe. if one spends more time trying to disprove God then he will not find God.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

1. The six year old would be correct to point out that Shrek (the story about talking donkeys) is fiction. Would he also be correct if he said that "Shrek the Movie lies about the verbal abilities of donkeys in general and Eddie Murphy's character in particular"? In other words is it accurate to say that "Shrek" is false? I would argue that it is not. Much in "Shrek" is true to my experience. For instance, it is true that not every one who LOOKS like an ogre actually IS an ogre. It is true that external beauty is not always an indicator of inner beauty, nor is external ugliness an indicator of inner ugliness. It is true to my experience that intolerant parents often can be brought to a place of acceptance. It is also true to my experience that a small group of faithful friends can overcome powerful and well organized evil. There is also much true about the story of Balaam's ass. The student newspaper at my seminary was called "Balaam's Ass" because it was always telling inconvenient truths that the administration didn't want to hear -- things that the editors believed God wanted them to hear. It is true to my experience that God finds ALL MANNER OF UNLIKELY WAYS to make his will known to me. So far no talking Donkeys but.... it ain't over til the fat lady sings so who knows!

Nicely said.

I believe this because many reliable witnesses (my grandmother, my folks, my brother, JS Bach, The Bible, BrentRichard, Dumas Otterson (a NASA scientist and my jr High Sunday School teacher) told me so.

How did I make this list? Wow.

5. here is a poem by the German Theologian, Dorothee Soelle who says this stuff better than I:

Oh, THAT Dorothee!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Quotes on faith and religion:

"Faith is corrosive to the human mind. If someone genuinely believes that it is right to believe things without reason or evidence then they are open to every kind of dogma, whim, coercion, or dangerous infectious idea that's around. If someone is convinced that it is acceptable to base their beliefs on what is written in an ancient book, or what some teacher tells them they must believe, then they will have no true freedom of thought; they will be trapped by their faith into inconsistency and untruths because they are unable to throw out false ideas when evidence against them comes along."
- Author Sue Blackmore


Absolutely so. That is not faith (as I use the word). That is blind belief. No basis. Utterly so as above. That is something we MUST move beyond, and thinking, learning, intellect, are all to be used for that purpose. That is what's so corrosive about blind belief.


"One of the most frightening things in the Western world, and this country in particular, is the number of people who believe in things that are scientifically false.- Frances Crick

Oh yeah! BIG mistake. Big problem. Personally, I don't get it. Why do they feel they should believe such things? Science corroborates truth. And teaches us about it.

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." - Richard Dawkins

The evidence is all around. It depends upon what eyes you look with. The problem is so many people run around with their eyes closed, crying out "faith, faith," and what they have is blind belief.

"Faith means the will to avoid knowing the truth." - Friedrich Nietzsche

It is, or SHOULD BE, the very opposite: the will to know the real truth, and have all deceptions fall away.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire

THAT is a great one.

"A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." - Mark Twain

All too true.

"The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors." - Sam Harris

MAGNIFICENT. The same is true of the rare, true spiritual teachers.

"If devotion to truth is the hallmark of morality, then there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking....." - Ayn Rand

Excellent one.

Rick

We have to be responsible first. Responsible for what we think, what we feed our minds with, what we believe and on what basis. From there, we can learn.

[tpdncr4christ]

Scientifically speaking, I see God poking us everywhere... hiding in numbers and design, laughing at us as we search for answers. He is just ing us, smiling, waiting until we get it.

The Golden Ratio, PHI: the ratio found throughout nature of 1.618... It can be seen on your face, in your body, on a conch shell, on tree leaves, on Grecian statues, in architecture, everywhere. Check out Wikipedia's Definition for a more relevant explanation. The Golden Ratio is, to me, like God's fingerprints. He didn't create us to mysteriously hide from us, He is all around and has left clues for us to find him.

I love it when people say science is against the church, to me, the search for knowledge, the constant questions that plague humanity's curiosity that is just more and more proof that God exists. I can't help but see God as reading the most complex thriller mystery book of all time, urging forward the protagonist through his trials of understanding, biting his lip when the dark ages set us back, crying with us when we use our minds and gifts to destroy each other, rejoicing for us with each break through, laughing at our ridiculous struggles and responses to hardship. He is, to me, very much evident. I can't prove to you that He is true. I can't show God to you. But I know He is here. And that's all I need.

[progressive4christ]

Originally Posted by tpdncr4christ

Scientifically speaking, I see God poking us everywhere... hiding in numbers and design, laughing at us as we search for answers. He is just ing us, smiling, waiting until we get it.

The Golden Ratio, PHI: the ratio found throughout nature of 1.618... It can be seen on your face, in your body, on a conch shell, on tree leaves, on Grecian statues, in architecture, everywhere. Check out Wikipedia's Definition for a more relevant explanation. The Golden Ratio is, to me, like God's fingerprints. He didn't create us to mysteriously hide from us, He is all around and has left clues for us to find him.

I love it when people say science is against the church, to me, the search for knowledge, the constant questions that plague humanity's curiosity that is just more and more proof that God exists. I can't help but see God as reading the most complex thriller mystery book of all time, urging forward the protagonist through his trials of understanding, biting his lip when the dark ages set us back, crying with us when we use our minds and gifts to destroy each other, rejoicing for us with each break through, laughing at our ridiculous struggles and responses to hardship. He is, to me, very much evident. I can't prove to you that He is true. I can't show God to you. But I know He is here. And that's all I need.

Very well put.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Quotes on faith and religion:

"Faith is corrosive to the human mind. If someone genuinely believes that it is right to believe things without reason or evidence then they are open to every kind of dogma, whim, coercion, or dangerous infectious idea that's around. If someone is convinced that it is acceptable to base their beliefs on what is written in an ancient book, or what some teacher tells them they must believe, then they will have no true freedom of thought; they will be trapped by their faith into inconsistency and untruths because they are unable to throw out false ideas when evidence against them comes along."
- Author Sue Blackmore


"Faith is believing what you know aint so." - Mark Twain

"You cannot convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


"I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion." - James Buchanan


"It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." - W.K. Clifford

"One of the most frightening things in the Western world, and this country in particular, is the number of people who believe in things that are scientifically false. If someone tells me that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, in my opinion he should see a psychiatrist." - Frances Crick


"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." - Richard Dawkins

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." - Abraham Lincoln

"Faith means the will to avoid knowing the truth." - Friedrich Nietzsche

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." - Voltaire

"A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." - Mark Twain

"The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors." - Sam Harris

"If devotion to truth is the hallmark of morality, then there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking......The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind." - Ayn Rand


Rick

What would you like us to do with all of these varied reflections by well known skeptics and atheists, Rick? They feel to me like a slap down rather than part of a conversation, but that is unlike you so rather than be reactive and angry I guess I'll just be confused.

[Rick336]

I guess I'm not asking you to do anything with the quotes but read them. They're just different opinions from other non-believers besides myself.

I'm not here to prove that god doesn't exists. I'm only here to express my opinion. But maybe I shouldn't express my views about atheism in a Christian group. But the thread is called "Calling all atheists". So here I am.

Actually the term "atheists" is a Christian term. I prefer to be called a free thinker or a non-believer.

Chances are that you're a non-believer too. If you don't believe that Thor or Zuce or Allah or Apollo or Hercules or any other gods are true gods then you're also a non-believer. The only difference between you and me is that I just take it one step further and also don't believe in the Christian god.

I just don't see any evidence of an invisible god telling people what to do. Look at the Koran. In that book Allah instructs people of Islam to kill all infidels (non-believers of Allah). "As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgement. They shall become fuel for fire. We will put terror in the hearts of the unbelievers." On September 11th, 2001 we learned how serious fundamentalists Muslims take their beliefs.

Look at what's going on in Iraq right now. The Shittes and Sunnis are blowing each other to bits. Why? Because their different religious beliefs told them to. That's insane! And all of them want to see Israel destroyed. The leader of Iran believes Allah is real but he doesn't believe that millions of Jews perished in the Holocaust. And this man wants to build nuclear weapons.

In the 21st century the technology to build weapons of mass destruction is becoming more widely available. The world needs to start seriously re-thinking all religion beliefs. "Where is this god who is telling us to kill each other?"

If the above quotes were offensive then I apologize. I didn't intend them to be. The reason I posted them was an alternative to a debate. I think there are actually some rational things that have come out of Christian scripture. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "Love one another." Those make sense. Unfortunately there's hundreds that don't make sense.

I don't think most Christians are stupid or hateful. My grandfather was a Southern Methodist minister. He was the most gentle and loving person I ever knew. But this is a different world than the one he lived in. In many ways it's a much better world. In other ways it's also more dangerous.

And it will become even more dangerous if we continue to believe the absurdities of ancient religious books. The survival of our civilization depends on rationality and reason.

Rick

[progressive4christ]

I hope you were not made to feel bad about your opinions and beliefs, but most people religious or not when passionate about something will be quick to defend or convince. Christianity is not exempt from that just like any other thing one is passionate about.

You are right; and responded correctly in the sense of "calling all Atheist"

I just wish some people would look at Jesus's life instead of some of His crazy followers.(nobody in this forum) Trust me they are all not crazy. I am sad that the Farwells, Robertson's and Phelps are what non-believers see. I am glad that you are here and will see even thoe we might differ on faith you are here among Christians who do care and weather you believe this are not are free thinkers-Liberal Christians. It is Christians, not God who has kept people from free thinking because mankind likes to control the masses; so they lie to the mass and they blindly follow because they think they are doing right. Hear a lie enough time some start to believe it. Some Christian for get the the word Christ is in the name of their faith; which to me means Christ like. I can not find any example of Christ behaving like some Christians do today. The ones in this forum seem to pretty level headed. I believe God has giving us reason and rationality it is some people have not found it yet or do not know how to use it in the context of their faith. To many Christians follow man instead of Christ. Man is fallible so there is room for lots of mistakes on all levels.

One way of proof that God is of free thinking is: you know when people say why does God allow such bad things to happen? Well, it is apart of free thinking and free will. People make bad decisions and yes the innocent to sometimes get hurt because of that ; which seems unfair i know,but that is what comes with free will and thinking. God does not stop you from doing anything; you yourself or others do. Separate God from man and you may just see him for your self, but that is YOUR choice. Not trying to be preachie, but letting know how I feel.

Peace love and goodness to all,
Pam

[Zerbie]

(((( Rick ))))

Originally Posted by Rick336

I'm not here to prove that god doesn't exists. I'm only here to express my opinion. But maybe I shouldn't express my views about atheism in a Christian group.

Hey whoa! This is not a "Christian" group - it is a non-denominational social justice group based on spiritual principles and founded by a Christian, which therefore attracts a lot of Christian members. Not all of us are Christian. For instance, me.




But the thread is called "Calling all atheists". So here I am.

We're all here sharing opinions and philosophies. These are things that are or have been very personal and special for all of us, as yours are to you. I have immense respect for your position, Rick. After all, I'm an "ex-atheist," I must be the opposite of most people in America. I am far, FARRRRR more likely to trust an atheist than a "Christian." Those are my preconceptions which are based on actual experiences in the past.

I just take it one step further and also don't believe in the Christian god.

I don't find that offensive at all. I'm not sure what anyone means when they say "christian god," but I probably don't 'believe in' the one you mean, either. Can't speak for anyone else on this board about being offended or not, but I just can't see how an honest personal statement like that could possibly be taken as an offense.


Look at what's going on in Iraq right now. The Shittes and Sunnis are blowing each other to bits. Why? Because their different religious beliefs told them to. That's insane!

Yes it is. As have been so many "holy wars" throughout world history.

In the 21st century the technology to build weapons of mass destruction is becoming more widely available. The world needs to start seriously re-thinking all religion beliefs.

Yes. If we are not to self-destruct.

"Where is this god who is telling us to kill each other?"

In our own hearts and minds. In our selfish nature. Not in God. The problem is we see our own anger and judgment, etc., and then call it God.



If the above quotes were offensive then I apologize. I didn't intend them to be.

Not at all! I hope you still feel welcome to share with us. You have a lot of important things to say.




Rick

Here is a poem I wrote shortly after my 17th birthday:

Genesis

In the beginning
there was fear.

One day Man said
"Let there be faith,"

and Man created God
in his image.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Genesis

In the beginning
there was fear.

One day Man said
"Let there be faith,"

and Man created God
in his image.

Zerbie. I believe this is exactly what happened.

Thousands of years after humans began walking upright, they began to think about stuff. They started wondering what was going on. Lightning, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, errupting volcanos frightened them. They needed answers. And since they didn't have science to give them answers, they simply made stuff up.

They figured since the sun and the moon and the stars looked down on them from above, then these heavenly bodies must be in control of everything. Floods, droughts, storms, volcano erruptions were punishments from above for something they must have done to anger the gods.

Fast forward 500 thousand years to September 2005.

Hundreds of entries on web blogs from Christians across America claimed that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment on New Orleans for being a wicked city.

We've been walking upright for a million years now. We communicate with one another with computers. We carry telephones in our pockets that take videos that we can send to emails. So the big question is....how long do we continue to hold on to these stone age religious beliefs?

Do we ask a donkey for the answer?

Rick