Feeling a little resentment

[bsnyder83]

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

[tdogg]

I think the problem is that people feel one must be married and have children to be normal. There's nothing wrong with having fun (i.e., gay pride parade). For those who see a person having a good time once and then deciding all gays and lesbians are that, well, that is short-sight and narrow-minded, and that's what we need to change.

Personally, I don't advocate people ceasing to have a good time and express themselves just so the short-sighted and narrow-minded can change their minds. Diversity is a gift, we are ALL different and we should celebrate that, not cease being ourselves and on occasion a bit out of ourselves.

Whether we are settled down with a spouse/life partner and have a family, or whether we want to get out and join in every gay pride parade we can, we are entitled to each and every right afforded to any other hetero person in this country.

Not sure I've officialy met you bsnyder83 - if not and you are new, a huge welcome to the forums here! I'll search around for your intro post if there is one. Hope you hang out and we can get to know each other better!!

Tdogg

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by bsnyder83

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

It is hard to know how to reply...my partner and I are the most boring gay couple alive. We like each other, stay home and cook and clean. My partner is writing a fantasy novel and I like to read poetry. We hate clubbing (although that was not always true of me). People know me.

That said, I do value the diversity that manifests itself in our beautiful and sometimes naughty subculture. If people like me marched in the pride parade, I am not sure we've have 400,000 people attending in Chicago. I think I will march with the ACLU this year with their silly liberty hats.

As far as men taking on the feminine, I highly support that. Men in our culture devalue the feminine and that is unfortunate. There is this delightful African American guy at Pot Belly's that wears eye shadow to work. You have to admit that it helps us all get a little closer to our feminine sides.

[Daniel]

My guy and I are pretty boring too. And the people we know are pretty boring as well. No late night club dates for us. I need my beauty sleep!

Speaking frankly, I don't think we don't have equal rights because gay people are too queer (and that's a word that has been taken back btw). Rather, my sense is that we don't have our rights because of religious oppression. Get that out of the way and equal rights are a nobrainer.

[BenL]

Straight people can be stereotyped, too, but because their orientation is generally accepted, the stereotypes rarely get attributed to that. But, my heavens, have you ever seen footage of a Carnival (Rio) or Mardi Gras (New Orleans) parade. How about some of the costumes and antics the straights put on for those parades? Or are they a little less than straight just for a day? Is it OK for them to have fun and camp it up, but not us?

I see your point. Television always goes for the outlandish. It makes for better visuals. As you say, how boring would it be if we all paraded in our everyday dress? Small-town Pride parades have a lot more of the "normal" looking folks in them. But just remember it's the people who push at the margins who keep the middle open for all of us.

All of what you say is why it is so important for more of the GLBT community to come out of hiding, so that the rest of the world can see that we're just their neighbors and that we share so many of their goals and dreams.

[marutidas]

Well this is an interesting thread,
on the one hand we have people judging us for what they see on TV and other media sources. On the other, defining the "NORMAL" gay couple.
Normal is all relative, for me, is being a spiritually ecclectic Gothic Drag Queen/ Leather person So to say Homebody Gay is Normal when it may actually be a small portion of the Gay community (Not knowing if that is the truth since no survey has ever been done.) From what I know of the Gay community here in Albuquerque, many of us like to just have a good time.(I don't go out much because I have to work at night.) It has been said Albuquerque is good for couples, having known many commited couples go out on the town.

Just set the record striaight, I have not met a single "NORMAL" person EVER!

[Alecto]

You contradict yourself a bit. You say that all the leather daddies and drag queens and dykes on bikes deserve equal rights, but that the reason they don't have them is because they're leather daddies and drag queens and dykes on bikes. Do you see a disconnect there? We shouldn't have to normalize to please straights. I'll say that again: We deserve rights, regardless of what we do for entertainment, or how we get to work, or what we wear. Trying to be "just like them" isn't going to change anything, because at the end of the day, we're still different because we're gay. Semantically, I make a distinction between the heterosexual / GLB dichotomy (and the cisgender and heteronormative / GLBT dichotomy) and the "Straight / Queer" dichotomy. I think there's a major issue when the organizations and people who are representing us show only white lesbians who move to the suburbs to have 2 kids and 3.5 dogs, because the message is that "hey, look! There's some of us that deserve rights." By leaving out all the other folks, there's this....shame. "We're not associated with them; just ignore them; they're not the ones who're gonna be using the rights anyway". Whereas two loving people who go to the bathhouses (safely) every weekend deserve the option of marriage, (and safety from housing and employment discrimination) every bit as much as Straight people.


Honestly...this is a major pet peeve of mine, and I feel that I'm not...particularly clear about what I'm trying to say, but (hopefully) I don't think I've been offensive either.

[keltic63]

What is NORMAL?

really, do we know? can anyone say what it is?

I may end up rambling here, but let me attempt to lay out a few thoughts.
No one is normal. I think if we held up anyone as an example of normal then examined them throroughly, we'd find something that is definitely "not normal" about them, whether they were straight, gay, or somewhere in between!
Straight people have plenty of stereotypes about them, but their sexuality isn't usually part of the stereotype, and if it is, then that part of their stereotype is usually praised: Playboy bunnies, Sex kittens, Macho Casanovas, etc. STRAIGHT sexual stereotyping plays well to the masses in a positive way (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) especially if it is a straight male out to conquer as many women as possible.
Gay sexual stereotyping does not play as well. obviously. However, I think that the displays we often see at Pride parades stem from the desire to make the straight world uncomfortable. We're different and suffer for it; Some segments of the lgbt community take that and run, owning their differences instead of accepting the shame that the straight world would heap upon them (us) for being who we are.

One thing the straight world doesn't talk about: the number of married couples involved in the swinging lifestyle. why not? well, for one thing, they don't want their sex lives to be public knowledge. hmmm, that's interesting. not to mention that people involved in the "lifestyle" as THEY call it, are recruited, and often recruit other couples to join them. there's gotta be a stereotype there somewhere. And are these the people who get to determine whether or not I deserve equal rights?

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with everything I see at a Pride parade. But then, I'm not comfortable with everything I see in the straight world, and that's the world I get to look at every day. So the hetero's see 30 seconds of some drag queen twirling a baton on the nightly news once a year in June? if that's how they form their opinion of who we are, then they are pathetic, and certainly must not know any lgbt people. Of course, we could do the same and judge all straight people by what we see in the news (pedophiles, thieves, hookers, baby-killers, wife-beaters....) Just remember, the news shows need to sell time to advertisers; showing pflag and HRC is not going to keep the viewers titillated enough to watch the upcoming commercials.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by marutidas

Well this is an interesting thread,
on the one hand we have people judging us for what they see on TV and other media sources. On the other, defining the "NORMAL" gay couple.
Normal is all relative, for me, is being a spiritually ecclectic Gothic Drag Queen/ Leather person.

Never said us gay boys are normal....I said we were boring..a very different thing! And I was trying to be funny actually.

I agree with you. Normal is relative. And 'normal', I think, depends a great deal on where you live, and in what context one lives. It also depends on who is doing the defining.

What comes to mind here is the bru-ha-ha over Richard Gere's kissing of an Indian female movie star in India. Here- kissing in public is considered normal (for straight people anyway). In India? No way. I also have friends who live in New Dehli and they tell me that, as for their being a gay couple, it's accepted, just not talked about. That's considered 'normal'. In that, India and the US are somewhat alike! (Don't Ask Dont' Tell)


Likewise, I saw a guy on the street yesterday who was wearing gold lame shoes, a pink blazer, white pants and some pretty fantastic bangles and beads. He looked great- and no one batted an eye. Likewise, more than a few people here in NYC wear all black (such a cliche...but there you have it...you know...the downtown artist type), and if you plopped them down in Kansas they would not be 'normal', because the context would be radically different.

All this aside, I'm for everyone being who they are an wanna be. I don't have any assimilationist dreams. Diversity is beautiful.

[Zerbie]

Hi bsnyder. Welcome. Theater? I'm a singer myself - lots of opera, some musical theater way back when. Pleased to meetcha.

Folks, I'm not sure the OP is saying we should all assimilate - I think he is griping about the perpetuation of stereotypes in the media and mainstream as being ALL that gay (or LB or T) is.

There's all kinda stuff in both the straight world and the gay world that I personally just don't "get." That doesn't mean it defines an entire group. I think the frustration should be more rightly placed with those straight folks who just jump right to the assumption that leather-drag-queen-glitter-dry-humping is all that anybody gay is about. That's a ridiculous conclusion to make - but somehow there it is, some folks actually think that. To assume so without a moment's thought that not EVERY gay person dresses in glitter and thongs on a regular basis is simple-minded at best. The fault lies more with the lack of education of those who would believe such, than with a guy who dresses in drag for a pride parade.

The pride parades attract all types, and all kinds of folk who are VERY ordinary 9 to 5ish, blend-in-with-the-mainstream types will take their ONE DAY to dress up, let their hair down, and maybe look or act outrageous. For one day.

Part of the gay pride tradition is celebrating having the courage and freedom to express the more maligned parts of one's personality. Pride began as a commemoration of Stonewall, and it was the butch lesbians, the drag queens, the transgender, and the "feminine" gay men who were right in the thick of things at Stonewall, expressing the most courage. We may not fit into any of those descriptions ourselves, but we owe them a debt for having had the courage to make it possible for us to live a life vastly better than the hell they endured in the 1960s.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Part of the gay pride tradition is celebrating having the courage and freedom to express the more maligned parts of one's personality. Pride began as a commemoration of Stonewall, and it was the butch lesbians, the drag queens, the transgender, and the "feminine" gay men who were right in the thick of things at Stonewall, expressing the most courage. We may not fit into any of those descriptions ourselves, but we owe them a debt for having had the courage to make it possible for us to live a life vastly better than the hell they endured in the 1960s.

Well Spoke! Well Spoke!

We stand on their shoulders. Every one of us.

[dsdrane]

Harrumph!

[Sagebrush Dan]

I agree with the original poster on a few points. In particular, the public near-nudity and the public simulated sex acts. I live in Oregon, where the religious right is constantly trying to strip us of our rights or of any dignity. And what is their ammo? Not the drag queens, not the people freely expressing whatever or whoever they are.
What they use against us is the guys in thongs parading down Broadway (the one in Portland) juggling dildoes, or the pride parades around the country with public nudity and simulated sex during the parade. And it hurts us. We have no way to fight back on that one.

One sixties radical said that Reagan got elected in 1980 because the teens in the 60s insisted on their right to have sex in the public parks. In the context of the documentary where he said that, it made perfect sense. I believe in freedom of expression and people dressing just as wildly as they want to. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the public indecency and the fact that it plays right into the propaganda machine of the religious right.
I'm tired of sacrificing my rights as a boring human being so that a few exhibitionists can get their jollies at my expense.

[Alecto]

Sage...I can understand that. But at the same time, I'm not in a position to understand that. The pride parade in my city is...apparantly pretty tame. Do we have dancers showing lots of skin on floats? Yes. But no sex toys, and usually no overt sex acts. So...I haven't seen any of the more outrageous things that people complain about (and yet, in my city, people still complain about them and won't go to the parade).

At the same time, I think it makes some kind of sense for people to be very public and "in your face" about sexuality. It's sex that's used against us because it's sex acts that are aversive to people. That's how you get some people who say things like "it's fine that you're gay but do you have to be SO gay"; they don't want to be reminded and they sure as hell don't want to see PDA. What I'm getting at is that it does make a certain kind of sense to try to reclaim that part of our lives. It's been used as a weapon against us, and so some of us try to use it as a weapon against them. It ties in, somewhat, with the Queer Nation Manifesto: "Every time we fuck, we win". Am I in favor of such? I don't think so (I mean, ideally, we wouldn't need weapons at all, right?). But I completely understand it, and it does go a little beyond "a few exhibitionists getting their jollies at your expense".

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by bsnyder83

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

I think that, by and large, gays are being taken more seriously--despite the kinds of parades/displays you described. The individuals that do that don't take themselves seriously enough, nor do they realize how they hurt the gay community with their actions: continuing that only makes us look 'silly' and will keep people from accepting us as just ordinary people. It's a shame. A gay parade with same-sex families and couples acting more apporopriately would much better serve the cause. Keep the rainbows, but do away with the glitter and humping, replace them with serious gay parents, strollers and banners that say, "We know what family love is too" might be better and mean a lot more.

But that's just my take.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by Daniel

All this aside, I'm for everyone being who they are an wanna be. I don't have any assimilationist dreams. Diversity is beautiful.

Amen! Diversity is a beautiful thing!

"Normal" would mean someone has to define it, and if you ask 20 people to define it, you would likely get 20 different definitions. So let's just be ourselves (even if it means being half-naked at a gay pride parade!).

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Part of the gay pride tradition is celebrating having the courage and freedom to express the more maligned parts of one's personality. Pride began as a commemoration of Stonewall, and it was the butch lesbians, the drag queens, the transgender, and the "feminine" gay men who were right in the thick of things at Stonewall, expressing the most courage. We may not fit into any of those descriptions ourselves, but we owe them a debt for having had the courage to make it possible for us to live a life vastly better than the hell they endured in the 1960s.

Amen to that. I just came across a lovely photo album put together by the extreme right about a youth pride day in Mass. They are getting so good at this that we can leave our cameras at home and let them document our events. I just see a celebration of courage and freedom. Bsny, who cares what these people think. Seriously.

http://www.massresistance.org/index.html

[Freespirited]

Originally Posted by bsnyder83

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

My friend I hear you and can understand your point! I don't think your post is not degrading what is to be gay! but rather you are expressing concern and shame of other gays whose exhibitionism are sending the wrong message to those who have no clue of what is to be gay!! and FREAKS, EXHIBITIONISTS, SEXUAL PREVERTS WE ARE NOT!! your concern is quite justifiable in that if we want to be respected by society we should first and foremost show some self-respect, and most importantly show the world that we can also be normal, respectable, and decent members of society. I can assure you that human beings are visual creatures wether we like to admit it or not! is like this you see...if two people with the same qualifications are interviewed for a job, but one is not appropiately dressed more then likely his attention getting attire is not going to get him the respect and credibility he needs to get the job! am I getting my point across!? acting normal have no association with being heterosexual...acting normal is a matter of being sensitive to others different from us, and the only way to do that is by being consciencious of people's feelings, and most of all showing self-respect to ourselves.


LEANDRO

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Freespirited

My friend I hear you and can understand your point! I don't think your post is not degrading what is to be gay! but rather you are expressing concern and shame of other gays whose exhibitionism are sending the wrong message to those who have no clue of what is to be gay!! and FREAKS, EXHIBITIONISTS, SEXUAL PREVERTS WE ARE NOT!! your concern is quite justifiable in that if we want to be respected by society we should first and foremost show some self-respect, and most importantly show the world that we can also be normal, respectable, and decent members of society. I can assure you that human beings are visual creatures wether we like to admit it or not! is like this you see...if two people with the same qualifications are interviewed for a job, but one is not appropiately dressed more then likely his attention getting attire is not going to get him the respect and credibility he needs to get the job! am I getting my point across!? acting normal have no association with being heterosexual...acting normal is a matter of being sensitive to others different from us, and the only way to do that is by being consciencious of people's feelings, and most of all showing self-respect to ourselves.


LEANDRO

Last time I checked we were already on the margins. I am not sure how putting on a suit and tie for the majority is going to "help the cause". The problem is homophobia. It is a heart disease that operates quite independently from any offense caused by leather pants and dry humping on a pride parade float.

A lot of the "acting out" you see in our community is really about surviving. That night of clubbing may be the only place on earth a gay man can be totally himself. The pride parade is about visibility. The mannerisms are about liberation.

So let's not judge our community. We get enough of that already.

[Alecto]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Last time I checked we were already on the margins. I am not sure how putting on a suit and tie for the majority is going to "help the cause". The problem is homophobia. It is a heart disease that operates quite independently from any offense caused by leather pants and dry humping on a pride parade float.

A lot of the "acting out" you see in our community is really about surviving. That night of clubbing may be the only place on earth a gay man can be totally himself. The pride parade is about visibility. The mannerisms are about liberation.

So let's not judge our community. We get enough of that already.

Said much more nicely than I probably would have. Thanks.