Feeling a little resentment

[Alecto]

Originally Posted by kimmyd

I think that, by and large, gays are being taken more seriously--despite the kinds of parades/displays you described. The individuals that do that don't take themselves seriously enough, nor do they realize how they hurt the gay community with their actions: continuing that only makes us look 'silly' and will keep people from accepting us as just ordinary people. It's a shame. A gay parade with same-sex families and couples acting more apporopriately would much better serve the cause. Keep the rainbows, but do away with the glitter and humping, replace them with serious gay parents, strollers and banners that say, "We know what family love is too" might be better and mean a lot more.

But that's just my take.

First, PLEASE don't make presumptions about the self-esteem of these people. Your experience is not theirs. I think a lot of the people described take themselves very seriously. Gender nonconformity, or, hell, ANY of the nonconformity described could be (and often is) a very conscious political decision. And they would very likely say that by staying in your quiet little life, by assimilating, and by changing your behavior to "normalize", YOU are doing a great disservice to the GLBT community. By "straightening" (recognizing a difference between the "straight vs. Queer" dichotomy and the "heteronormative Vs. not" dichotomy) the image, you send the message that "we don't want anything to do with those queers over there. They'd make excellent targets for your religious, institutional, and individual attacks, because we don't think they're really as worthy of defending". And that's unacceptable. Why should we have to be "ordinary" people in order to be accepted? WHy can't they except us as "slightly different" people?

As for a parade with a bunch of non-heterosexual Straight families (see above for semantics involved with "straight"), let's face it: that's boring. Furthermore, the parade in question is supposed to be to celebrate the Stonewall Riots. The second word in there is RIOTS. These weren't people who wanted to just not make waves, sit back, and fit in. These were people who were sick of being treated as sub-human, and who held onto their differences while fighting back. Furthermore, this parade is for US, not for them. If they don't like what they see, then they don't have to come. That said, I also get grumpy when more mainstream GLBT people complain about the parade beeing to Queer, but then using that as an excuse not to go (whereas the more logical action would be to show up, get involved, and make sure that the mainstream population is represented).

[Freespirited]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Last time I checked we were already on the margins. I am not sure how putting on a suit and tie for the majority is going to "help the cause". The problem is homophobia. It is a heart disease that operates quite independently from any offense caused by leather pants and dry humping on a pride parade float.

A lot of the "acting out" you see in our community is really about surviving. That night of clubbing may be the only place on earth a gay man can be totally himself. The pride parade is about visibility. The mannerisms are about liberation.

So let's not judge our community. We get enough of that already.

I have nothing against us gays doing those acts in a club amongst ourselves, even if you think being called a "prostitute or a bitch" if we so desire to call that being proud of being gay by lookers, more so by our own??? I do have a problem with gays or heterosexuals for that matter exposing their private parts and doing indecent acts in public whatever PUBLIC setting that may be! I don't think being proud of our nakeness have NOTHING to do with being proud of who we are as gay human beings! futhermore I think public indecent acts are far from being manneristic in nature to show our liberations as gay people. One more thing!! are you forgetting that in a lot of those parades there are a lot children expose to that kind of exhibitionistic act!? yes does right!! gay people have the right to bring their children to those parades too, you know!! now that is a beautiful and more positive aspect to show off of our gayness don't you think!?

LEANDRO

[tdogg]

First, I think people in this country are generally uptight about naked bodies and sex. We need to loosen up a bit (and I don't mean in the way you might think). Our sexual selves are just as significant as our other selves. We should feel free to express our sexual selves in the way we express our mental and emotional selves. I'm not saying to be exploitative, run around the neighborhood naked or get together with any ole one on the street. Just loosen up, accept your sexual self and be a little free to be ok with it.

Then, I just don't see anything wrong with a group of people expressing their imagination and creativity in a gay pride parade. It's been a long haul (and will continue to be) and particpants are celebrating how far they have come, that they have learned to love themselves and that they can be who they are no matter who agrees or not. They have a right to do their thing. IMO, it should be celebrated and if you can't get out there and join in then at least respect their right to do their thing in the parade. Hey, you can join in and be as clothed as you want and opt not to participate in any pretend sexual acts or whatever. You can express yourself, be yourself.

For those who are concerned about children being at a gay pride parade, while I wouldn't have a problem with bringing my child (I'm not a mom thought, so ???), for those that are concerned with what their child might see, well, it's a gay pride parade. So one should expect their child might see some half-naked bodies, body movements and outlandish costumes and floats. Definitely not the Rose Parade. So, perhaps the option would be to take their child to the Rose Parade where there are marching bands and horse riders and pretty flowery floats. By the way, I enjoy that too!

Guess my point is, we need to get over wanting everyone to act a certain way so that we are accepted. Each person should be accepted for who they are and not stuffed into a pre-made box that someone feels they should fit into. We are a hugely diverse world, and community, and our diversity is what makes this world so beautiful. I hear what is being said, and on the surface it may make sense, but deep down, every person has the right to be who they are and still obtain each and every right the next person has. Even if they go wild and crazy on pride day.

[bsnyder83]

Thanks for all of the comments. Everyone has great points. I never wanted to convey that i was ashamed of these "stereotypes," I was just a little concerned that that was what the most of people i run into 'know' of when the think of the gay community. Keep in mid that i live in a SMALL CITY IN INDIANA!!!! Many of these people still think that blacks are inferior by God's will, so we are talking about big time ignorance. I have drag queen friends who i love, transgrendered friends, butch lesbians, and a couple of guys that wear more makeup that a circus clown, and they all deserve to be who they wanna be.

I was just venting about how many of those in culturally malnourished areas percieve gays, and that is as sexual freaks and extremely promiscious. And when they see boys in thongs grinding each other on a float shaped like a big ol' weiner.......exactly. And i understand the ORIGINAL point of Pride parades (i.e. reactionary to the Stonewall Riots) but ask any of these little pill-popping twinkies, and they will have no clue what you are saying. "Are they a new punk band?"

Then again maybe it's just the commercialization of Pride now, being an easy way to make money by waiving sex and alcohol in front of our consumer noses. And if thats the case than i think we have successfully intergrated our selves with the rest of American culture.

Ben

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by bsnyder83

Then again maybe it's just the commercialization of Pride now, being an easy way to make money by waiving sex and alcohol in front of our consumer noses. And if thats the case than i think we have successfully intergrated our selves with the rest of American culture.

You make a salient point!

Can't tell you how many conversations I've had every Pride Day here in NYC where this is talked about. Pride has become very commercial. Exceedingly so. It seems to have grown far from its roots as a march of protest.

[kimmyd]

Alecto,

I'm not making presumptions about anything, nor did I say my experience was theirs.

Where--and how--do you come to your strange conclusions about my post?

And while you might consider my idea 'boring', it isn't vulgar and disgusting. I'd take my kids to my idea any day versus the other choice.

Don't put words in my mouth and put down my ideas like you're some kind of pro parade organizer. You're just another guy posting on here like the rest of us.

[kimmyd]

Originally Posted by tdogg

First, I think people in this country are generally uptight about naked bodies and sex. We need to loosen up a bit (and I don't mean in the way you might think). Our sexual selves are just as significant as our other selves. We should feel free to express our sexual selves in the way we express our mental and emotional selves. I'm not saying to be exploitative, run around the neighborhood naked or get together with any ole one on the street. Just loosen up, accept your sexual self and be a little free to be ok with it.

Then, I just don't see anything wrong with a group of people expressing their imagination and creativity in a gay pride parade. It's been a long haul (and will continue to be) and particpants are celebrating how far they have come, that they have learned to love themselves and that they can be who they are no matter who agrees or not. They have a right to do their thing. IMO, it should be celebrated and if you can't get out there and join in then at least respect their right to do their thing in the parade. Hey, you can join in and be as clothed as you want and opt not to participate in any pretend sexual acts or whatever. You can express yourself, be yourself.

For those who are concerned about children being at a gay pride parade, while I wouldn't have a problem with bringing my child (I'm not a mom thought, so ???), for those that are concerned with what their child might see, well, it's a gay pride parade. So one should expect their child might see some half-naked bodies, body movements and outlandish costumes and floats. Definitely not the Rose Parade. So, perhaps the option would be to take their child to the Rose Parade where there are marching bands and horse riders and pretty flowery floats. By the way, I enjoy that too!

Guess my point is, we need to get over wanting everyone to act a certain way so that we are accepted. Each person should be accepted for who they are and not stuffed into a pre-made box that someone feels they should fit into. We are a hugely diverse world, and community, and our diversity is what makes this world so beautiful. I hear what is being said, and on the surface it may make sense, but deep down, every person has the right to be who they are and still obtain each and every right the next person has. Even if they go wild and crazy on pride day.

You have a very, very good point.

I guess mine is, if we want to be taken as serious, normal and moralistic people, we need to act like that.

BUT, there is nothing wrong with fun displays either.

There just needs to be a middle ground somewhere: fun AND serious.

[kimmyd]

Then again maybe it's just the commercialization of Pride now, being an easy way to make money by waiving sex and alcohol in front of our consumer noses. And if thats the case than i think we have successfully intergrated our selves with the rest of American culture.

Ben[/QUOTE]


Lol.

Yay us.

[Alecto]

Originally Posted by kimmyd

Alecto,

I'm not making presumptions about anything, nor did I say my experience was theirs.

Where--and how--do you come to your strange conclusions about my post?

And while you might consider my idea 'boring', it isn't vulgar and disgusting. I'd take my kids to my idea any day versus the other choice.

Don't put words in my mouth and put down my ideas like you're some kind of pro parade organizer. You're just another guy posting on here like the rest of us.

What I was getting at is that you're making assumptions about these people when you don't know what their experience is (when it is, obviously, very different from your own). By referring to everyone we're talking about as "exhibitionists", and talking about how these people see themselves, you're projecting a set of assumptions. And that ain't right. I think I've said in my previous posts (though, I'm not looking at them, so it bears repeating) that I'm not defending public nudity or sex acts or anything else that would legally be considered...well...not. But the OP started out talking NOT about nudity, or sex acts, but about butch lesbians and nelly twinks and drag queens. That, I hope you can agree, ain't right. (And I may have gone into defensive mode by making assumptions about just who you were referring to as "exhibitionists"; I do think that the parade has become, in many cities if not mine, too sexualized; I do NOT think that people who subvert gender expression are deserving of anyone's judgement though).
I completely understand why you want to "ditch the humping"; that makes sense to me, but why does the glitter have to go with it?

You have every right to take your kids where you want to, and I DO have some major issues that, at very least, if a pride parade is going to be an overly sexualized party, they don't at least let people know that. It seems like there should be SOME family-friendly option available; like how there's several Mardi Gras parades. What I'm saying is, I'm with you on some of this, but other parts (which I may have misunderstood?) are very insulting.

Also...how do you know I'm not a pro-parade organizer? If I was, would my opinions hold any more sway? I'm trying not to be too terribly grumpy, but I have a major, MAJOR pet peeve when people within the queer community start judging each other for stupid things, and I get VERY angry when people start blaming the more visible "fringes" of the GLBT community (the Queer people) when these are the folks who, historically as well as today, have taken the brunt of the homophobic violence.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Alecto

.... and I get VERY angry when people start blaming the more visible "fringes" of the GLBT community (the Queer people) when these are the folks who, historically as well as today, have taken the brunt of the homophobic violence.

All too often, the sort of thinking which goes along the lines of 'if only you people would dress and act nice, we'd give you your rights' morphs into 'you got what you deserved'. And I'm not talking party favors.

Either thought is violent as far as I'm concerned.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

All too often, the sort of thinking which goes along the lines of 'if only you people would dress and act nice, we'd give you your rights' .

Yep.

It's deceptive. It doesn't work that way. It just turns the "nice" oppressed person into a doormat.

Then again, I also believe that finding the appropriate balance between doormat and in-your-face-counterproductive to be about the most difficult challenge that there is. Good luck balancing on a razor blade! And it's all part and parcel of the Deluxe Oppression Package Deal: they heap it on you, and then it becomes your job to be the genius one to figure out the precise balancing act of how to "persuade" Mr Oppressor into "giving" you the dignity he took away from you in the first place. People wonder why there's anger???

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Freespirited

I don't think being proud of our nakeness have NOTHING to do with being proud of who we are as gay human beings! futhermore I think public indecent acts are far from being manneristic in nature to show our liberations as gay people.
LEANDRO

You forgot to mention the Lesbians that ride topless on motorcycles during the dyke parade. Don't blame it all on the boys

[Rick336]

Here's an article that appeared in the Advocate a year ago on this subject:

Is Gay Pride Good PR?

A-List Hollywood publicist Michael Levine assesses the public relations impact of pride festivals and parades.

It is undeniably true that it is difficult to be gay in our society. Cultural, religious, and in some cases governmental disapproval of homosexuality by the majority infects the daily lives of gay men and lesbians, and it can seem that the pressure from all sides to deny one's identity is overwhelming and unrelenting.

The need for release, for freedom, is unmistakable. But gay pride festivals in cities around the country can sometimes do more harm than good.

I say this as a sympathetic heterosexual who makes a living in public realtions and has done so for more than 20 years. When I discuss the impact of gay pride demonstrations and parades, it is not from a standpoint of moral disapproval or even political ideology. I'm assessing the impact made on society as a whole - the good or damage done to the cause of gay identity and rights in the United States - by the spectacle that gay pride demonstrations can make.

From where I'm standing it's not doing a lot of good.

Believe me, I understand that it must feel wonderful to take to the streets with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people who, finally, agree with you and understand your life. I realize that even in today's less closeted society it has to be a joyful moment to stop trying to play by the majority's rules and simply aknowledge one's own identity: to be you.

But it comes with a cost. Society's mind-set in the 21st century is determined by the media, in particular television. And in a 24-hour news cycle, when entire networks have to fill a full day, every day, with current happenings, the impact of gay pride festivals will be reduced to a 20-second piece of videotape that will be played and replayed multiple times during the day until something new, something else that makes "good television" replaces it.

And if you think that a 20-second clip is going to be a reasoned assessment of the plight of an oppressed minority, a sound bite from a gay man or lesbian who makes a thoughtful point about demanding an equal place in our country, you are living in a very different society than I am.

What's going to be shown on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and for all I know Aljazeera, is a montage of drag queens, leather enthusiasts, and floats in the shape of a penis - all parading down Main Streets in major cities with the implied message to the red states in Middle America that this is on its way to an avenue near you.

We can debate for years whether this is an accurate or appropriate depiction of most gay men or lesbians. But I can tell you from a strict public relations viewpoint that it will not - ever - help the cause of gay equality in the United States.

When Muslims in this country argue that the media ( in news or fictional television and film ) depict only the most radical of their religion and thereby distort the view that most Americans have of all Muslims, they have a point. Such portrayals make for vivid images, something that will cause a viewer to stop channel surfing and take a look - and that's what television networks are trying to do. But it doesn't necessarily paint an accurate picture or provide comprehensive information about complex issues.

You'd think that a 24-hour news cycle would offer more depth, as news organizations would have much more time than they once did - 30 minutes a night until the 1980s - to delve into complex issues. But what has happened is that the news has become polarized, and the extra time is generally given to loud political debate (if one cares to use the most polite term for the screaming that goes on). Discussion of issues is left by the wayside.

I don't argue for one second that gay people should not be proud of who they are, nor that they should deny their true identities for the sake of society. But I don't think that wild gay pride celebrations and demonstrations in public serve well the cause they claim to support.

They make good television, but they certainly don't make for better public policy.

Levine is founder of the prominent Los Angeles public relations firm Levine Communications Office. He is the author of 17 books, the latest of which is Broken Windows, Broken Business (Warner). Find out more at BrokenWindows.com

The Advocate website is http://www.Advocate.com

[Alecto]

Originally Posted by antonyh

You forgot to mention the Lesbians that ride topless on motorcycles during the dyke parade. Don't blame it all on the boys

I thought I heard somewhere that it's state by state whether going topless is technically nudity / indecent. So...maybe they have every legal right to ride topless, right?


As for "good PR"; I would contend that the Pride Parade isn't for them, it's for us. If they want to peer in at the queers, there's not much we can do to stop them (just like there's not much we can do to stop the curious college kids from stopping into our bars to gawk at us). What we can do is re-claim the straight space of a city street, and for one day make the whole public street into Queer space. We can empower ourselves as well as come together to celebrate ourselves.

At ANY wedding / other large celebration, you can find SOMETHING embarassing to catch on tape. I think that the PR piece is a very accurate description of the role of the media in our lives (too many people think they have some inherent responsibility for truth, or accuracy, or social justice: the ONLY responsibility they have is to make money). I don't, however, think that "straightening up" is going to change anything. We'll either be boring enough to not make the news at all, or they'll find SOMETHING to make outrageous. It's not as though drag queens don't exist; why should we pretend they don't? WHy should the "leather enthusiasts" and dykes on bikes be marginalized for "good PR"?

And is it terribly wrong that I find it distasteful that the Advocate essentially hired a PR person for the entire gay community? And that it's that much worse that it's a straight person, who has to "understand that it must feel" because they've never felt it themselves?

[Dash]

Originally Posted by BenL

But, my heavens, have you ever seen footage of a Carnival (Rio) or Mardi Gras (New Orleans) parade. How about some of the costumes and antics the straights put on for those parades? Or are they a little less than straight just for a day? Is it OK for them to have fun and camp it up, but not us?

I think this is soooo important to consider. In my opinion, we all too often buy into society's condemnation of ourselves. We believe (in part) that we are less than legitimate members of society because...because...because they point out that we SHARE common human forms of celebration and excess. We did not learn this behavior because we are gay, and therefore somehow less than human, but because we are HUMAN--and humans play this way sometimes!

It is a long tradition of bawdy display represented as far back as Carnivale hundreds of years ago, bacchanals of the ancient world and beyond. San Francisco just had is annual (since 1912) Bay to Breakers footrace. Early 80's, as I understand, Oklahoma State University (my undergrad) had an annual "Streakers Night" where all the kids would spill out of the dorms in the hot August evening and run wild and free! This went on for years until some violence and vandalism brought it to an end (alas, before my time there). Luther College has "Naked Soccer" (so my Luther friends tell me) where students get up at 4am in the freezing cold and the faculty cook pancakes. Oberlin College is just a big hairy orgy according to reports. Even here at Northwestern the young folks run a race around the lake fill in the deep mid-winter taking off items of clothing each lap.

It ain't a gay thing, friends. It's human. As a community we should never BLAME ourselves, or let them blame us for being merely human and expressing our humanity in the very same ways that others do. It may be, by some reckoning, licentious...but WE are not therefore any different or worse than society as a whole.

[RM260boy]

reading this thread has given me flashback's to the 60's sending shivers down my spine.

what the glbt community needs i think is a person to rally us in large groups. someone who can speak for our community. someone who can get the lazy people like myself (i will be doing more very soon i hope) to address our concerns with conviction.

unfortunately i am one of the "good" gays. in the past i have not spoken up when i have seen toes being stepped on. i have remained silent when i should said, "hey, don't you think that that is not very nice". i think that if more of us spoke up (with respect of course) when offensive words are spoken, that then there would be less offensive actions against the glbt community. of course this might (or might not) have an affect on an individual, but over time it would. i would like to think that society could be changed by individuals

i think that what is hard to accept is that the entire spectrum - from glitter to coseted homophobes - (my choice of ends not real ones) are part of our community, and a good portion of our problem.

i say that we take advantage of the internet, the airwaves, the newspapers and all of the other media that i have left out to point out little things so that big ones don't happen.

my wish, and i have to participate to make it come true.

rally the troops we are taking over!

[Alecto]

What's funny is, I think we have too many people trying to speak for us. We've got Joe Salmonese of HRC (which..I'm sure has done a lot of good, but as a "political" organization, has also had to make compromises that I don't agree with). It's a lobby group, essentially, and it works a LOT differently than, say, ACT UP (led by one Mr. Larry Kramer: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vGFUX-SfR4U). Both have, arguably, rallied large groups, but they've been rallied in different ways to do very different things. And...that's probably a good thing, but I guess I'm saying the leaders are out there. I'm not sure what the missing piece is, but it seems like that's not it.

[Daniel]

Gay Gandhi?


Maybe that's each of us.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Gay Gandhi?


Maybe that's each of us.

Ja. Sort of.

I'm just speculating here, but it strikes me that we all need to prepare ourselves for the possibility of being in a leadership position someday. Then, as to whether it happens, that depends on circumstance and chance. I think it really amounts to a combination of calling meets preparedness.

There really isn't any one charismatic personage who all, or even most, of the LGBT community rallies around and identifies with the movement - none that I've ever observed anyway. The creation of such, if even possible, will take someone being really developed and prepared to step in just happening to land in a set of circumstances that enable a unified movement to take off. From what I understand of history, there has NEVER been a unified gay movement - always fractious. But I think it would only help us to have a central figure who most (we'll never get all) of the community feels comfortable to rally round.

I been waitin' on a gay Gandhi since I was about seven. But I don't think such a personage can be force-created. Too much involves a complex interaction of circumstance.

So thank you, Daniel, for the reminder that in the meantime, it's up to each and every one of us. It's far more powerful to BE what is needed than to sit around bemoaning its absence.

[Freespirited]

All I can say is that my idea of fighting for my rights, or showing pride of my gayness in a parade is NOT by acting in a degrading and indecent way as a way to draw attention, am I really fighting for my rights here? and then after demand to be taken seriously by anyone else!? Duh! there is a time and place for everything, but shaking the naked cheeks of my buttocks through my pants in public is only going to cause shock value, annd NOT the right kind of value I need in order to be respected, or even understood by those who don't know what it is to be gay!


Leandro