Feeling a little resentment

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Freespirited

All I can say is that my idea of fighting for my rights, or showing pride of my gayness in a parade is NOT by acting in a degrading and indecent way as a way to draw attention, am I really fighting for my rights here? and then after demand to be taken seriously by anyone else!? Duh! there is a time and place for everything, but shaking the naked cheeks of my buttocks through my pants in public is only going to cause shock value, annd NOT the right kind of value I need in order to be respected, or even understood by those who don't know what it is to be gay!


Leandro

It takes all types to make the world go round.

Honestly, if Pride was such an embarassment, why do politicians line up in droves to be in the parade? Last year we have the Governer and all the people running for his position.

[Sherrie Z]

A few random thoughts ...

A Gay Gandhi would be great ... any kind of Gandhi would be great ... but Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn't do it by themselves. We have the power to be Gandhi in our own ways ... and here at Soulforce, that's exactly what we have ... the embodiment of non-violent resistance.

As a person who happens to be a caucasian, hetero, non-trans, and single female ... and who happens to be on the quiet and reserved side in terms of personal style ... I would be profoundly disappointed if the LGBT community as a whole ever toned itself down for the sake of pleasing or appeasing the larger "straight" world ...

There is a time and place for playing the game ... most job interviews, most meetings with legislators, most media appearances on political programs ... but in everyday real life ... or during a parade or a party or a celebration ... without color and diversity, without real freedom of expression, what would be the point? To fight for full freedom of expression, but to do so only in the form and style of mainstream conformity? Huh?

There may be just a few individuals in any given pride parade who kinda push the boundaries past the line of good taste, but if we start making rules or drawing lines about what is or isn't OK, we could get into much worse trouble than the minor trouble caused by those occasional moments of bad taste ...

Even though I personally lean toward the quiet and reserved side ... I am sooo much more uncomfortable on those occasions when I am surrounded by lily white families with strollers ... by couple-centric, well-behaved and properly dressed mainstream society ... than I am in the midst of the wildest moment during any pride parade or club scene ... but that's just me.

Whatever your personal preference in terms of style or expression or social surroundings ... without a genuinely open and free society ... without real diversity and without appreciation and respect for the full range of cultural expression, that is, without freedom and color ... we have no real democracy, we have no real life, and we certainly would have no fun! You're here, you're queer, and thank God! : )

[Dash]

What do you all think of this?

Now King David was told, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God." So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the LORD. After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.

When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."
~2 Samuel 6:12-22

I don't if it relates completely to the topic, but that last line of David's is a zinger.

[RM260boy]

wow sherrie
wow dash

also slightly off subject but kind of related:
i just saw ron paul for my first time on bill maher. so i "wiki-ed" him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...ns_of_Ron_Paul . i normaly don't pay attention to republican contenders, except for the sound bites, until it gets closer to the election, and i am seriously thinking about changing parties so that i can vote for him in the republican primary. his political positions lined up almost perfectly, for the things that i look for in a national politician. anyway, i am going to watch the republicans this closer this go round.

[Sherrie Z]

Originally Posted by RM260boy

wow sherrie
wow dash

Thanks, RM ... and thanks to Dash too, for that intriguing quote ... : )

[Freespirited]

Originally Posted by Sherrie Z

A few random thoughts ...

A Gay Gandhi would be great ... any kind of Gandhi would be great ... but Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn't do it by themselves. We have the power to be Gandhi in our own ways ... and here at Soulforce, that's exactly what we have ... the embodiment of non-violent resistance.

As a person who happens to be a caucasian, hetero, non-trans, and single female ... and who happens to be on the quiet and reserved side in terms of personal style ... I would be profoundly disappointed if the LGBT community as a whole ever toned itself down for the sake of pleasing or appeasing the larger "straight" world ...

There is a time and place for playing the game ... most job interviews, most meetings with legislators, most media appearances on political programs ... but in everyday real life ... or during a parade or a party or a celebration ... without color and diversity, without real freedom of expression, what would be the point? To fight for full freedom of expression, but to do so only in the form and style of mainstream conformity? Huh?

There may be just a few individuals in any given pride parade who kinda push the boundaries past the line of good taste, but if we start making rules or drawing lines about what is or isn't OK, we could get into much worse trouble than the minor trouble caused by those occasional moments of bad taste ...

Even though I personally lean toward the quiet and reserved side ... I am sooo much more uncomfortable on those occasions when I am surrounded by lily white families with strollers ... by couple-centric, well-behaved and properly dressed mainstream society ... than I am in the midst of the wildest moment during any pride parade or club scene ... but that's just me.

Whatever your personal preference in terms of style or expression or social surroundings ... without a genuinely open and free society ... without real diversity and without appreciation and respect for the full range of cultural expression, that is, without freedom and color ... we have no real democracy, we have no real life, and we certainly would have no fun! You're here, you're queer, and thank God! : )

I am going to push the envelope here by simply agreeing with you that diversity is key towards human understanding, that being said why is it so hard to understand that lily white families, racial minorities, illegal aliens, couple centric, well-behaved and properly dressed peoples are also a part of the gay community as well as in mainstream society with values and morals!? period, and who said that I as a gay man can't have morals and values too!? in my opinion it is our own fault for not wanting to be a part of morality just because there are others who share same sets of values or morals, but who use it in a destructive and negative way! furthermore I question the validity and sincerity of those who only support us through the filtered screen of politics, behind a monitor, or even those who come to the parade only to have a good laugh at us, and when they go back to the comfort of their own home or mindframe they still think the worse of us.


If you accept and encourage diversity will you welcome at your place of worship and feel comfortable sitting right next to a prostitute dressed inappropiately, who also happens to be a christian? will you give a job to a tanned skin hispanic male, who is also an ilegal alien, but have a family to suport? will you accept ghetto talk with fouled language on your favorite tv shows or local programming? why not? aren't all these people part of the rainbow within our society? then why not accept their human condition as well!?

I stopped blaming society for criticizing me for being gay the day my own mother looked straight into my eyes, and told me I should stop blaming heteros for my miseries and shortcomings! of course I hated her for saying that at the time, but now that I am older and wiser I understood her sentiments quite well, and she was right!! so I stopped feeling sorry and having self pity at myself for wanting to be what the straight and gay community demanded of me, and then my life turned 360 degrees in a better light. As a result I am finally enjoying the freedom of just being me, but quietly, and without the support of external influences. I don't need to go to a parade to shake my butt to boost my confidence and the reassurance of being proud of who I am. That is not to say that I live a boring life, since I do enjoy going to gay nightclubs every once in a while to celebrate my gayness, but in a confined and safe gay environment. Furthermore I was brought up in a home where self respect and the respect of others was a way of accepting myself and others different from me.


You as a heterosexual woman have no idea of what gay people go through to be who we are!? for starters there is a lack of role models in our own comunity for the young gay men in mainstream gay communities, which unfortunately much of it is very liberal. It is ok to be open minded but it is also important to be consciencious and considerate of conservationism as well, so as long as both respect and value each other's point of view!! I respect drag queens and exhibitionists, so much so that when they run into legal problems I will be the first one to help them out of trouble. but if we were to ruled out the conservatives wether gay or straight we will live in a totalitarian society, and that is not healthy for a democracy! in order to enjoy freedom for those who demand it, they must do it with civility and properness so they get their main point across, belief me other people will take them more seriously, slowly but surely!! A fine example of that can be noticed in the images of Gandhi and Martin Lurther King on the main page of Soulforce! this two leaders lead millions to march the streets in a civil and proper way, where their voices and messages were there most powerful weapon versus the usage of sex and exhibitionism as a way to draw attention as is so common in the gay parades.


Funny that most gay people are bought into the idea that Stonewall's drag queens incident in Nyc was the starting point of the gay movement! personally I think that they were just a diverse group like many others who had contributed through the ages to the gay movement throughout history. Thanking or validating drag queens for my freedoms to be gay is like thanking my parents for making me gay just because they gave me birth!! but my parents have never demanded recognition for all of my personal accomplishments just because they brought me into this world!!


LEANDRO

[tdogg]

If you managed to stop all pride parades in this country, it would not make a difference in our fight for equality. The reason we are up against such great obstacles isn't because GLBT people go nuts in a pride parade. It's because there are so many out there that preach hate against us, and they would do it even if pride parades didn't exist.

If a person isn't interested in seeing or joining in a pride parade, great, stay home. I'm not going to judge. If a person wants to join in a pride parade, dress up in whatever and march down the road, great for them too. Not going to judge. I am gay and have gone through difficult times (and going through them now) BECAUSE I am gay and I certainly have nothing against craziness in a pride parade (can't wait to get to my first one, hopefully SF this year!), and I'm all for people expressing themselves. I love it. I love diversity. I love different. I think it is what makes the world go 'round.

Hey, I even love those who aren't into that sort of thing. They help make the world go 'round too.

I don't think the answer is to judge drag queens or nutty parade marchers. We must go after those who are preaching the hate. Shut them down. Strive for equality. Never give up, never give in. We all deserve equal rights, even if we dress a little differently or dry hump in a parade or stay home and watch the Friends while we eat ice cream.

[Freespirited]

Originally Posted by tdogg

If you managed to stop all pride parades in this country, it would not make a difference in our fight for equality. The reason we are up against such great obstacles isn't because GLBT people go nuts in a pride parade. It's because there are so many out there that preach hate against us, and they would do it even if pride parades didn't exist.

If a person isn't interested in seeing or joining in a pride parade, great, stay home. I'm not going to judge. If a person wants to join in a pride parade, dress up in whatever and march down the road, great for them too. Not going to judge. I am gay and have gone through difficult times (and going through them now) BECAUSE I am gay and I certainly have nothing against craziness in a pride parade (can't wait to get to my first one, hopefully SF this year!), and I'm all for people expressing themselves. I love it. I love diversity. I love different. I think it is what makes the world go 'round.

Hey, I even love those who aren't into that sort of thing. They help make the world go 'round too.

I don't think the answer is to judge drag queens or nutty parade marchers. We must go after those who are preaching the hate. Shut them down. Strive for equality. Never give up, never give in. We all deserve equal rights, even if we dress a little differently or dry hump in a parade or stay home and watch the Friends while we eat ice cream.

I am not passing any judgement, I merely expressing my own opinion as you are. I am simply sharing my impressions of what I feel as the best and most effective way for others who may not understand, or are doing some soul searching, as to what it is to be human and gay! it is important for others diiferent from us to see us equally normal as them, because after all (wether you agree with me or not) when going back to our homes we are all equally normal human beings after taking off our clothes, the masks, makeup, and the roles we use to put up an act in society! that is perhaps the point I am trying to make! why try to be different by putting up an act of what we are not in real life!? isn't being real what we try to be!? or is acting up of what we are not perceived as being real in today's society?

I agree that diversity is good, but having said that isn't everyone, including those who may not agree with you, part of that diversity as well!? or is diversity in our gay community only exclusive to those of us who are suitable for or experts at shock value? as those who stand above everyone elses? I read somewhere in this post a very disturbing comment about someone implying that the presence of drag queens are more important then the presence of gay parents with their children in a parade!? now that is really sad!


LEANDRO

[tdogg]

I hear what you are saying Leandro. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves just to win the approval of those who feel we should be within some type of boundaries they would consider 'normal'. For some, dressing in drag is quite normal and though they may not be drag queens 24/7, they are for a significant part of their lives, and it's an important thing. We shouldn't want them not to express themselves for a select few.

We must work at equality and acceptance just as we are. A whole diverse world of all types, not just someone another person hopes to see in a 'box'. That includes those with views that dressing in drag, dancing in gay clubs and marching in pride parades isn't their thing.

I think more importantly, people just need to be out, and be themselves. The more we do that, the more we become routine (as opposed to normal) and the closer we are to acceptance. "Normal" means someone has to define it, and then the others have to live within the definition.

You are totally free and right to have your opinion. Mine is just that, my opinion, coming from someone who expressed herself many ways, just as I desire without expectations or hopes that others will consider me normal or approve of my ways. So naturally that may not coincide with your opinion. I have strong feelings about those who want to put others in boxes, within boundaries, and wish they lived, acted and spoke a certain way so that we would be accepted. We should all be accepted just as we are, when we are expressing our personalities, or not. Just my feelings on this.

By the way, I don't consider a pride march participant any more OR LESS important than gay parents. They are both important to the color and diversity of our world. Life wouldn't be the same if we were all the same.

[Sherrie Z]

Originally Posted by Freespirited

Funny that most gay people are bought into the idea that Stonewall's drag queens incident in Nyc was the starting point of the gay movement!

LEANDRO

Thank you, Leandro, for your response to my post. I am not going to go point by point to list where we agree and disagree. I think that those points would likely be clear to anyone who has read and compared our posts. This same type of discussion has been going on for decades. The cool thing about this forum is the wide range of ideas and opinions that we have, and that even in disagreement, we share so much more in common.

Your mention of the Stonewall incident reminds me that very few people are aware that there was a similar incident in San Francisco three years prior to Stonewall ... the Compton Riot occurred for similar reasons and with a similar clientele ... but is not as widely known. The riot took place in a cafeteria called Compton's in the Tenderloin area of downtown San Francisco in 1966. Just something of interest to pass along ... : )

[Freespirited]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I hear what you are saying Leandro. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves just to win the approval of those who feel we should be within some type of boundaries they would consider 'normal'. For some, dressing in drag is quite normal and though they may not be drag queens 24/7, they are for a significant part of their lives, and it's an important thing. We shouldn't want them not to express themselves for a select few.

We must work at equality and acceptance just as we are. A whole diverse world of all types, not just someone another person hopes to see in a 'box'. That includes those with views that dressing in drag, dancing in gay clubs and marching in pride parades isn't their thing.

I think more importantly, people just need to be out, and be themselves. The more we do that, the more we become routine (as opposed to normal) and the closer we are to acceptance. "Normal" means someone has to define it, and then the others have to live within the definition.

You are totally free and right to have your opinion. Mine is just that, my opinion, coming from someone who expressed herself many ways, just as I desire without expectations or hopes that others will consider me normal or approve of my ways. So naturally that may not coincide with your opinion. I have strong feelings about those who want to put others in boxes, within boundaries, and wish they lived, acted and spoke a certain way so that we would be accepted. We should all be accepted just as we are, when we are expressing our personalities, or not. Just my feelings on this.

By the way, I don't consider a pride march participant any more OR LESS important than gay parents. They are both important to the color and diversity of our world. Life wouldn't be the same if we were all the same.

I am glad we both understand our views on this ever ending and sometimes tiresome debate of what is right or what not! I am glad you understand that the celebration of diversity goes beyond looks and stereotypes! and frankly I am a lot more open minded then I seem! I don't know why but as I've gotten older I'ved become a lot more conservative then my younger wilder days!! maybe it is because being accepted is not an issue with me anymore!? I am very happy in my own skin!!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts without being overly sensitive about it! that is why I love this discussion forum, because most people here are very accepting if not at least respectable of differences!


LEANDRO

[Freespirited]

Originally Posted by Sherrie Z

Thank you for your response to my post. I am not going to go point by point to list where we agree and disagree. I think that those points would likely be clear to anyone who has read and compared our posts. The cool thing about this forum is the wide range of ideas and opinions that we have, and that even in disagreement, we share so much more in common.

Your mention of the Stonewall incident reminds me that very few people are aware that there was a similar incident in San Francisco three years prior to Stonewall ... the Compton Riot occurred for similar reasons and with a similar clientele ... but is not as widely known. The riot took place in a cafeteria called Compton's in the Tenderloin area of downtown San Francisco in 1966. Just something of interest to pass along ... : )

Sherrie!!

Thank you for your courteous response! I am glad you are aware that Stonewall was just one of many other smaller incidents that have gradually contribute to our cause for self-respect and dignity not just for being gay but more importantly for being human beings!

My opologies for sounding a bit harsh an my previous reply to you! you are right when you say that this forum is quite unique, in that we can discuss anything without taking it personally, and at the same time reacting in a mature and accepting way! thank you again for your positive feedbacks! as I do value your thoughts on the subject!


LEANDRO

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks, Leandro!

I very much appreciate your kind and thoughtful response ... and here's to diversity, cheers! : )

Hugs,

Sherrie Z

[tpdncr4christ]

Originally Posted by bsnyder83

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

I like you sir. I agree completely with what you're saying. Well, kinda...

Yes we should be proud, and yes we should embrace our flamboyant nature every now and then, but that shouldn't be the only side we show off. It's like that one bible story... the one about the parts of the body. We can't have just a hand, and the nose can't tell the eye to stop seeing... Just like we can't just have one type of gay people. We need to show off the less flamboyant folks, we need to educate the public by saying we are here... I don't think bsnyder83 is saying we should get rid of those of our members on fire, I think he is saying show off the rest. Let the normal show as much as the... flamboyant. I like it.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by tpdncr4christ

We need to show off the less flamboyant folks, we need to educate the public by saying we are here... I don't think bsnyder83 is saying we should get rid of those of our members on fire, I think he is saying show off the rest. Let the normal show as much as the... flamboyant. I like it.

this is, of course, correct, Austin. the problem is that at the Pride Parade, the normal are right there marching along with the more flamboyant; it's just that the "normal" lgbt people aren't the ones that show up on the 6:00pm news!

[tpdncr4christ]

Originally Posted by keltic63

this is, of course, correct, Austin. the problem is that at the Pride Parade, the normal are right there marching along with the more flamboyant; it's just that the "normal" lgbt people aren't the ones that show up on the 6:00pm news!

ok... so it's not the gay community that needs reform, it's the media. Got it. I've never been to a pride parade so I wouldn't know... Who wants to take our pitchforks and torches and knock down fox evening news, or maybe cbn? We could take em. until they just us...

[tdogg]

I think most media organizations are run by conservative right wingers, mostly of the Christian variety. They are addicted to sensational. They need sensational to 'bring in the sheep' and keep people followers and not leaders. They cannot survive without the sensational.

How often do we see positive aspects of our GLBT world on the news or in newspapers? I don't see it too often unless I'm watching the LOGO channel, and it's not always that positive there either. It's for the most part negative. The general population watches TV and reads the newspapers and believes what is being reported. We all know what is reported isn't always, isn't usually, what actually happened.

So maybe you have something there - we take over all media and report things the way they actually happen!

[tpdncr4christ]

do we have any good resources? how about this one!:

Fake Gay News

It may not be true but it is certainly much more entertaining.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I think most media organizations are run by conservative right wingers, mostly of the Christian variety. They are addicted to sensational. They need sensational to 'bring in the sheep' and keep people followers and not leaders. They cannot survive without the sensational.

How often do we see positive aspects of our GLBT world on the news or in newspapers? I don't see it too often unless I'm watching the LOGO channel, and it's not always that positive there either. It's for the most part negative. The general population watches TV and reads the newspapers and believes what is being reported. We all know what is reported isn't always, isn't usually, what actually happened.

So maybe you have something there - we take over all media and report things the way they actually happen!

I don't think it has anything to do with the media being conservative or liberal ... they're ruled by the almighty dollar, not a political viewpoint. "Whatever sells papers, that's what we print."

[Dash]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

I don't think it has anything to do with the media being conservative or liberal ... they're ruled by the almighty dollar, not a political viewpoint. "Whatever sells papers, that's what we print."

I agree with you 100% Brent!

I read both liberal and conservative blogs. The liberals swear the media is run by conservatives, and the conservatives decry the media as the tool of liberals.

What I think is this: journalism sniffs out the sensational...both of liberal and conservative issues. Trouble is...liberals are not shocked by the things that are sensational about liberalism. In fact they barely see them...even though they are in the news. Likewise, conservatives are blind to the shocking things revealed about conservative issues. They simply are not shocked by seeing themselves.

I always make the mistake of reading Americablog or DailyKos, and then running over to see what the folks at Redstate are saying about the issues. What I find are conservatives yakking about everything BUT the things the liberals are complaining about. If an issue becomes big enough in the news, then both sides get around to discussing it, but usually the disconnect between the two perspectives on public issues is positively vertiginous.

The result? Each side thinks the media is against 'em.