Thinking Seriously about important issues

[Progo35]

Hello, I'm a college student from MA who is trying to learn more about LGBT issues and to apply my knowledge in light of my Christian faith. I hope to learn more about such issues by dialoguing with people who frequent this site. I think that there is a big difference between Biblically rooted reticence toward homosexuality (people who take the Bible literally and therefore do not support homosexual issues because of following that conviction vs. people who embrace stereotypes and false information, thus making it difficult for homosexuals to live on a day to day basis.) My position is that both pro and con positions regarding homosexuality and the Church should be able to be expressed without fear of oppression and should be relegated to the appropriate sphere in terms of activism. I try to take a moderate approach, and that is why I am trying to be educated and considerate in regards to what is a very important human issue in our society.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Progo35

Hello, I'm a college student from MA who is trying to learn more about LGBT issues and to apply my knowledge in light of my Christian faith.

I can appreciate the desire to "learn more," and many of us here are very open and attentive to this, but please be careful to ask questions, do research, and read responses THOROUGHLY before making even the basest "Christian faith" assumptions about LGBTQQI persons.

Otherwise you're more likely to offend unnecessarily, and you seem sincere.

I hope to learn more about such issues by dialoguing with people who frequent this site. I think that there is a big difference between Biblically rooted reticence toward homosexuality (people who take the Bible literally and therefore do not support homosexual issues because of following that conviction vs. people who embrace stereotypes and false information, thus making it difficult for homosexuals to live on a day to day basis.)

So far so good, I would agree with that assessment. Some people genuinely feel the way they do without hatred, and others willingly feed into the lies that are regularly told about us -- and of course every combination of beliefs inbetween.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're saying is that it's important to recognize there are important distinctions to be made.

My position is that both pro and con positions regarding homosexuality and the Church should be able to be expressed without fear of oppression and should be relegated to the appropriate sphere in terms of activism. I try to take a moderate approach, and that is why I am trying to be educated and considerate in regards to what is a very important human issue in our society.

Well, I doubt you'll find much argument as far as "should be able to" express goes.

Please remind people here, even me, that you're new to this. And also please take any reading recommendations to heart, articles, web pages, etc. Usually they are offered to help understand where we are coming from -- not as a demand that you agree.

We've heard all the arguments before. To understand where we're coming from at least helps to minimize miscommunication, which is vitally important in this scenario.

[u-dog]

Hi Progo,

Welcome to the SF Forums, you are most welcome here! We appreciate your careful approach and your desire to learn and to understand.

Originally Posted by Progo35

I think that there is a big difference between Biblically rooted reticence toward homosexuality (people who take the Bible literally and therefore do not support homosexual issues because of following that conviction vs. people who embrace stereotypes and false information, thus making it difficult for homosexuals to live on a day to day basis.)

I want to challenge this statement a little bit. It's not that I doubt the sincerity of EVERY biblical literalist. I know that there are people like the ones that you describe, but in my experience not every biblical literalist Christian who THINKS that they are preceding from a literal understanding of scripture actually DOES procede from Biblical teaching. I, personally, have never met anyone who ACTUALLY takes everything in Scripture literally. Everyone I have ever met who claimed the literal inerrancy of Scripture ACTUALLY picks and chooses what passages they will read and what passages they will take literally.

What drives those choices is often an unacknowledged fear, hatred, suspicion, prejudice, stereotypes etc. What procedes from this is a process that looks like this:

1. I have unexamined prejudices that color my view of the world
2. I take those prejudices to my reading of Scripture and they motivate what passages I like/dislike, understand/don't understand, think are central/think are unimportant. They shape my understanding of the "inerrant, literal word of God"
3. My view of Scripture and God's will is shaped by my prejudice rather than my prejudice being judged by the nature of God.
4. My prejudices are re-inforced and I act on them in the world causing pain which I then understand to be God's judgement on the unrighteous.

People who follow this pattern BELIEVE that they are being led by God but are in fact LEADING God according to their prejudice. They inflict suffering by their beliefs and are surprised when GLBT people don't respond well.

All I am saying is that proclaiming that one has a "literal and inerrant" view of scripture isn't a "get out of jail free" card. such a person WILL be challenged here by people WHO REALLY DO KNOW THEIR BIBLES FRONTWARDS (in Greek) and BACKWARDS (in Hebrew).

Again, WELCOME!

Dave

[Progo35]

Emproph-Yes, I am saying that there are important distinctions to be made. Thanks for recognizing that.

Dave-an interesting thing about my experience with homosexuality and the Bible is that I have developed opinions in the reverse order: what I mean is that the first time I ever heard of calling homosexuality a sin occurred during an extremely painful experience at a "Christian camp." The people there were cruel to me on a regular basis, stealing my stuff, ripping the door of the bathroom stall while I was changing, calling me a retard, throwing rocks at me, and refusing to sit next to me in chapel, something that was made extra difficult by the fact that cabis were required to sit together. Anyway, the discussion happened when one of my cabin mates made a comment about one of my friends saying that she was gay. Basically, she said that this person was gay because she had short hair and acted like a tomboy. It was ludicrous. My reaction was, "that was in the old testament, Christ's sacrifice made it uncessary to follow those mandates" and they proceded to tell me that it was in Corinthians.

This experience shows me some fundamental things and differences between thoughtful consideration of LGBT issues and outright bigotry disguised as Biblically mandated opinions, perhaps without the people even realizing it! My first reaction then (and now) was a LACK of prejudice in regard to homosexual practice: I didn't see anything wrong with it. My dissenting opinions based on Corinthians have come from careful study and consideraton of what the Bible says vs. what others pressure us to believe. Like, I don't want to say "homosexuality is fine" because other people pressured me to say so. A major consideration for me is the fact that faith sometimes proscribes things that we don't understand or like. If I had written the bible, I wouldn't have put such statements about homosexuality into it, but I didn't write it and am not God. At this point, I feel ike saying "homosexuality is definitely okay" would disregard the fact that God's ways our not ours and presume that I know how God intended the Bible to be interpreted. The people at this camp were prejudiced and cruel, and that is the kind of prejudice that we all should all seek to eradicate.

[lydiam]

Hello and welcome! Glad you're here. I think I hear you saying that you don't believe our (and I'm meaning every human being here) understanding of the Bible can be completely without flaw. That's a good realization to come to. I love to discuss Biblical interpretation. Of course, we do have to come to a certain degree of peace with our interpretations in order to keep breathing in and out and putting one foot in front of the other, which I feel like I've come to on this issue. There's a thread going about a book called "Sex and the Single Savior" by Martin. It's all about Biblical interpretation in light of gender and sexuality issues. It's thick, but I enjoyed it. You might want to look into that book and check out the discussion on it. Welcome again.

[BruceChris]

I would offer you a number of caveats when interacting with this group. First off, some of us have been hurt, perhaps in ways similar to the ways that you described. Some of them, some of us can be very thin skinned, especially when faced with the term "Gay Lifestyle" being thrown about.

I know two things about the "Gay Lifestyle".
1. I cannot define it, and
2. I can't afford it.

Or, it must be a sin, because it's a choice, or it must be a choice, because it's a sin. Just about everybody here will tell you that they are the way they are, because God made them that way.

It's nice to be able to ask questions, without making accusations. Try to get to know people here, before getting too contraversial. So often, in the past, a newbie has said something that they thought was harmless, and gotten some very angry responses for it.

Many of the most respected members and leaders of my church are gay. And I wouldn't change any of them.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Progo35]

I do want to respect everyone here and I am sorry for igniting hurt feelings, which I realize are legitimate. Part of my reason for being here is that I hope to learn about activism from this forum, as well, as I think it has been successful and affective. I would like to apply this knowledge to how I think about homosexuality and to how I approach other injustices.

When I say, "homosexual lifestyle" I mean homosexual sexual acts and am not referring to the untrue stereotypes that are commonly attached to the concept of "homosexual lifestyle." I think I speak for others as well when I say that I don't know how else to refer to homosexuality, as it is a personal practice. However, I can see how the term "lifestyle" can be misleading, as lifestyle generally encompasses way more than someone's sexual preference. Thus, the lifestyles of homosexuals must range through the whole spectrum of lifestyles that heterosexuals practice. From now on, I will try to think of other ways of speaking about homosexualty that doesn't equate lifestyle with sexual practice.

[Progo35]

Thanks, I will definitely look up the book later this summer when I finish catching up on my classes.

[tdogg]

Lifestyle has nothing to do with homosexuality or heterosexuality. Homosexuality isn't a choice. I believe most humans are actually bisexual to a certain extent, with perhaps a tendency towards homosexuality or heterosexuality. In some cases, there are those who are strictly hetero or homosexual. Kinsey stuff, google it maybe?

Anyways, welcome to the forums. BruceChris is right on. Leave the words "lifestyle" at the door unless you are talking about say, furniture, hobbies, career choices, income. Leave the words "sexual preference" at the door as well. Then, I think you'll do fine and learn much.

Hopefully we will learn from you as well. Keep in mind, many if not most of us here have learned to accept and love ourselves, understand that we are accepted and loved JUST AS WE ARE by our God, and don't have a problem being a GLBT person, with the exception of not having the same rights and protections as heterosexuals. See you around!

Tdogg

[Pablo Rafael]

Progo,

Welcome! I appreciate the fact that you wish to explore this issue with an open mind. I hope that you will listen to the opinions here. There is a very great diversity of opinion on these forums when it comes to religious issues. However, I have found people generally very willing to discuss contraversial issues without being mean-spirited.

Originally Posted by Progo35

At this point, I feel like saying, "Homosexuality is definitely okay," would disregard the fact that God's ways our not ours and presume that I know how God intended the Bible to be interpreted.

You will find that I am one of the more conservative people here. I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. I am not a literalist, however. Like Dave (u-dog) was saying, I don't think anyone can truly be a literalist. To interperet the Bible literally word for word loses the meaning. The Bible is complex and cannot be unerstood without approaching it with faith and through the lens of God's grace. Also in humility I believe that I must admit that I will never fully understand the ways of God.

I totally agree with you that we cannot change the Bible to suit our own preferences. There are things in the Bible that I wish were not there (and even more that I wish God had chosen to include.) I do not, however, believe that homosexuality is wrong. I spent the first 40 years of my life thinking that it was and that the Bible was very clear on it. When I took a closer look with an open mind, I discovered that the word "homosexual" or even the concept of it was not even in existence in the days of the New Testament. The two terms that are sometimes translated that way are very unclear and have a wide variety of interpretations. Also all references to sinful homosexual behavior are connected with abuse, explotation and idolatry. None of them deal with healthy loving gay relationships.

I believe that all people, gay and straight need to follow the guidelines that God has set out for us. I believe in monoganous, committed relationships, strong loving families, decent behavior and a concern for the welfare of humankind as a whole. I believe that all our doings need to show a love for God and a love for each other.

I hope you will continue this dialogue with us.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

Progo,

A good way to look at it ... is the way that WE look at OURSELVES. "Gay" or "homosexual" Is something that "I AM" not something that "I DO" If any of us chose to act lovingly, ethically, responsibly and authentically out of what and who WE ARE then we are not being "sinful". We are being "authentic" and faithful to the God who made us.

[Progo35]

In response to our continued discussion, I thought that it would be productive to share my email to Patrick, which I feel gives a good summary of where I am

-------

Okay, more about myself...

I am very sincere about what I am saying. It is certainly not my intention to masquarade as anything. I have presented the issues that I have because I see them as legitimate concerns that should be thoughtfully considered when working to change how homosexuals are treated. And, I want to get opinions like yours on these issues so that I can reexamine them. I hope that if we can discuss each other's concerns outside of too much anger, we might be in a better position to help one another.

As I said in my posts, I have had many experiences myself of being treated badly. At one point I was being harassed so much, including threats to my life, that my family and I considered moving to another state. Moreover, I've seen "Christians" stand by and sanction this behavior by not doing anything or blaming it on Satan rather than the people doing it. So, I certainly dont' want to do that to someone else.

Growing up, I've learned that God loves us all and that people who are different are repeatedly subjected to oppression, even in how we learn about issues. For instance, I never knew that homosexuals died in the Holocaust until one of my more "liberal" (according to my schoool, not to me) professors elaborated on this in class during my freshman year of college.

Furthermore, I've accepted that there are things about the Bible that I don't like and don't understand. So, I have learned that God is working in each of our hearts to improve us and thus want to defend homosexuals from being unjustly treated.

The reason that I have included some of my reservations is so that I can be honest about where I am coming from. I'm willing to reexamine my own opinions, and I am NOT here to convert anyone. I think it is great that Christian homosexuals are coming out in the open and discussing such issues, as it really opens to door to insight and understanding.

I don't know if you've ever read Julian of Norwhich's Revelations of Divine Love, but its about a 14th century mystics conversations wtih God and visions of the Passion. During one of these conversations, she poses fundamental questions regarding why the world is the way it is, why people suffer, and how doctrine relates to all of this, and God tells her that "all will be well." There isn't an answer to all of the questions except an assurance that God is watching over us, and it is something I refer to in thinking about homosexuality. God wants us to love others, and loving others involves protecting each other from hateful actions.

In short, I am trying to be extremely "tolerant" and empathetic to gay issues because I care about the situation, but I don't think think that I can say one way or another what God thinks about homosexuality, so we probably will not agree with each other on all things.

I DO see homosexuals as PEOPLE FIRST, which is why I am trying hard to discuss such issues. Soulforce visited my school in April and I thought that everyone handled it very well, and that it made everyone more aware of this issue. We now have a publication where students anonymously write about their experiences as gay individuals, and their accounts have moved me personally.

I think that one thing that I wish people would understand is that for some Christians, telling people that homosexuality is okay when it may not be would be disrespectful toward that person as a spiritual being. Nevertheless, Christian attitudes now devalue the spiritual worth of homosexuals.

It's okay if you don't like me/don't agree with what I post. I'm not here to try to force my view on you and I understand that these issues could make one want to climb a wall.

Sincerely,
Meghan



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emproph
Quote:
Originally Posted by Progo35
Emproph-in your reply to my first post, you seemed extremely tolerant and open to discussion. In your reply to my dialogue in the hate speech forum, you seemed extremely angry with me. If you don't mind, I was wondering if there was a specific reason for the difference in your responses? I would like to know so that I can seek to avoid unnecessarily offending people in the future. I hope that my updated post has made my positions more clear.

Sincerely,

Progo35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emproph
Do you also see voices and hear faces?

Ok, that part was unfair and yes there is a patronizing tone, and I did/do feel extremely angry.

Maybe you're going to have to back up a bit and share a bit more about yourself. Because you basically set off every red flag you could have about yourself as far as an intolerant "Christian" attempting to masquerade as someone who "just wants to understand."

I don't know what else to tell you, I don't trust you yet. You smack of the description I gave above. That's what's been my experience.

If you want to learn, start by learning that. And never be afraid to confront me in the open.

I'm willing to see you differently, but I'm going to need to see it. Research the things you want to talk about first. Find out what lies are being told about us first and then mention them so that we know you understand the severity of the situation.

It makes ALL the difference.

Please,

-Patrick



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[Progo35]

Finally, in terms of stereotypes, the ones I am aware of now are:

Homosexuals spread disease
Homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles
Homosexuals believe in free sex with anyone at anytime
For males, interest in the arts indicates homosexuality and should thus be discouraged (Dobson)
Homosexuals contributed to the 9/11 attacks by bringing God's judgement upon America (Fallwell).
Children raised by gay parents grow up to be messed up adults
All gay people embrace abortion, euthanasia, etc.
Homosexuals are definitely going to hell, regardless of their relationship with God (most notably Phelps)
God hates homosexuals
Gay people choose to be gay
An attitude indicating a belief that any protective legislation passed for homosexuals will result in the decay of society

[Progo35]

This isn't a list of every single bias I have ever encountered, just a brief list that I have time for now.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Progo35

Finally, in terms of stereotypes, the ones I am aware of now are:

Homosexuals spread disease
Homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles
Homosexuals believe in free sex with anyone at anytime
For males, interest in the arts indicates homosexuality and should thus be discouraged (Dobson)
Homosexuals contributed to the 9/11 attacks by bringing God's judgement upon America (Fallwell).
Children raised by gay parents grow up to be messed up adults
All gay people embrace abortion, euthanasia, etc.
Homosexuals are definitely going to hell, regardless of their relationship with God (most notably Phelps)
God hates homosexuals
Gay people choose to be gay
An attitude indicating a belief that any protective legislation passed for homosexuals will result in the decay of society

You are courageous in addressing and challenging these stereotypes. One of the most difficult things to do is to question the paradigms that form the basis of your education. Might feel like chopping at the stilts of your beach house!

[Progo35]

I feel lucky in that my first Christian education was based on what to me are the two most fundamental tenets of Christianity-the two Great Commandments and Christ's resurrection. Because my parents focused so much on this, I was taught to love others and rely on Christ. When we discussed sex, my mom told me about puberty and guy-girl relationships and also said that it wasn't wise to have sex outside of marriage, and through asking questions we also discussed honoring God with my body by not having sex outside of marriage.

Homosexuality was never really an issue. I think that the only time we talked about it as a family was when I was introduced to a very good friend of a woman my mother was friends with. She mentioned living with "her partner" and I didn't know what that meant. When I asked later, my Dad explained that this woman was married to a woman in the way that he and my mom were married. "Okay," I said. I think that my mom may have said something about not considering it marriage herself, and I think I had no problem with it. It wasn't presented as being "sinful" or in respect to the above stereotypes. I think that out of my two parents, my mother possibly struggled the most with these stereotypes but it wasn't something we discussed regularly. I guess I was lucky in that it was pretty clear that I was heterosexual-when I was four, I wanted to marry my brother.

Unfortunately, exploration of faith, as I tended to do quite a lot, exposes one to a lot of things, from the most "liberal" christian perspectives to the most "conservative," but when I was little, the only time I really heard about homosexuality in a hateful context (and I mean hateful) was when I spoke to one of my Christian friends who unfortunately had a lot of prejudice against various people groups. I disagreed with her. Ultimately, I decided that the Bible was difficult to understand, and kept an open mind to both the sin and not a sin argument. Nevertheless, I know I have always maintained that regardless of this debate, God never wanted us to have unfounded prejudices against others.

The people at Gordon, (most of them), from my experience, tend to embrace a middle of the road perspective. For instance, one person I know feels that transgenderism is a condition that people are born with and is therefore not a sin, because the person is mentally a girl or guy, but maintains that homosexuality is a sin. Most notably, my two closest advisors said that they were also conflicted over the issue because of different Biblical interpretations, but totally disagreed with Focus on Family, Jerry Falwell, etc. Most people I know don't like him. But, if the truth be told, I am sometimes considered to be a more "liberal" Christian than others, so I tend to gravitate toward middle of the road people. That's why I think there's a difference between religious reservations vs. social prejudice.

I'm glad that Soulforce came to our school and that we started publishing "If I Told You," a publication by Gordon LGBT people. It has really enriched my understanding of homosexuality as an orientation that people do not necessarily choose. And, I think it will help other Christians understand homosexuality as something Christians struggle with. Very often, homosexuality is associated with the secular left, which is why Christians lump it into the category of things that hurt Christian values. Moreover, Chistians I know don't like to be portrayed as bigots by society and feel oppressed themselves when they feel like the secular left is telling them what to think, which amounts to the same silencing of people that organizations on the secular left tend to fight against.

One problem I think that has hurt the homosexual community is that some helpful organizations, like the ACLU, also support things that are ludicrous. Like, when NAMBLA was named as inciting the men who attacked a young boy in MA and the ACLU went to bat for them, saying that it was okay for them to distribute literature that gave instructions on how to have sex with children without being caught. Now, this deals with pediophelia, not homosexuality, and I'm sure that this outrages people in this forum just as much. But, the ACLU supporting these things is a big reason why some Christians turn away from anything that the ACLU supports in protest. I've personally found it important to take Abe Lincoln's approach in working with people in helping issues that are agreed upon. In my opinion, the ACLU should be supporting human rights, including the rights of people who are hurt by other people's so-called rights, by recognizing a difference between equal rights for decent, law abiding citizens of wll orientations and obscene materials that result in violating other rights. Equal rights for homosexuals protects and honors them as people, and doesn't hurt others.

[scott snedeker]

Meghan,

I've been rereading your posts from the first to the most recent. I sense a dramatic broadening in your view from your writing!

This is just another example of people reaching out to understand one another to make this a kinder world!

Keep expanding your experience and understanding and you will go farther than you can ever imagine!