From a Student at a School The "Equality Ride" is visiting.

[ochast]

Originally Posted by Venari

We asked, as I stated before, not to bring the bus to campus but cooperate in making a presentation to the student body.

My apologies; I missed that earlier. Would you be willing to write out for this discussion the details of your school's counteroffer? If you have verbatim text of correspondance that would be ideal, but a general paraphrase would work, too. And then we the readers can each ask ourselves if we would have made a similar decision to the Riders.

You have me very, very curious right now.

[Joe Brummer]

Venari,
Do you realize that many saw the actions of civil rights activist in the history of man as hostile, even when those actions were based in love? Gandhi presented actions of love and they were seen as hostile and radical. It was the radical part of this that brought attention to the injustice. Take the Salt March, it brought major attention to injustice though action that was considered hostile.

For the Civil Rights proponets of the 60s it was the lunch counter sit-in's. They were considered badly timed, and hostile. SOme could not understand the invitation to violence they presented. It was the action of bringing injustice into the light where it could be seen.

I understand how you could view this all the way you do, but understand we have tried to negotiate with these colleges on the past, but people want us to take this quiet road that lets the colleges go off the hook and the injustice to continue. This ride is to bring light to the injustice on terms that complete that mission, not terms that make it happy for others.


You mention that the schools have requested soulforce meet halfway, but that happen in the 60s in the same manner and just like Soulforce today, the civil rights leaders refused. The school is asking the soulforce riders to back down and play on their terms, and we have played on their terms for years all the while trying to negotiate and getting nowhere. THis action about taking this to a new level of negotiation on terms that agree for all of us, not just the school. Don't expect the riders to bow to offers to negotiate on thier terms, expect them to negotiate on terms that play to both sides, not just the school.

[Venari]

"You mention that the schools have requested soulforce meet halfway, but that happen in the 60s in the same manner and just like Soulforce today, the civil rights leaders refused. The school is asking the soulforce riders to back down and play on their terms, and we have played on their terms for years all the while trying to negotiate and getting nowhere. THis action about taking this to a new level of negotiation on terms that agree for all of us, not just the school. Don't expect the riders to bow to offers to negotiate on thier terms, expect them to negotiate on terms that play to both sides, not just the school."

Joe, you seem to be missing the point I am trying to make ... the school has attempted to make concessions. Also as I have tried to illustrate, in the case of my school, we do not have the policies that, lets say, Liberty has. So the "attack" against my school is unjust, in that aspect.

My point further is the school is not required to have any interaction with Soulforce and we would be in our right to have the members of the Equality Ride arrested, yet we try to find a means that appeases both sides, something Soulforce appears unwilling to do.

Perception is 100% reality to the person perceiving it. So, if the actions of the Equality Ride are perceived as an attack then the students, faculty and administration will react as though it is. My college does not exclude GLBT people, before I decided to become ex-gay the school allowed me to attend fully knowing I identified as gay.

As I previously discussed the Assemblies of God is governed by independent churches and it becomes a prejudiced viewpoint to paint all AG churches, schools and pastors with the same brush. So I guess its best to put there is no basis to claim the actions of the Equality Ride towards my school have no comparison to the actions the civil rights leaders took.

-Venari

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Personally I do not view the community life standards to be "anti-homosexual." The standards hold all students to the same level of accountability, gay or straight. Of the students I have known to be dismissed from a university for being homosexual, the key factor was engaging in sexual relationships. I have known straight students to be dismissed for the same reasons.

The Lee University student handbook reads:

"The university encourages wholesome interaction between the sexes but stands firmly against those elements of the society which condone pre-marital and extra-marital sexual relations, homosexual practices and other forms of sexual behavior which violate Scripture. Engaging in sexual acts expressly condemned in Scripture (premarital sex, adultery and homosexual practices) will result in suspension or expulsion."

Verani, how can you come down on the side of this not being discriminatory? Now let me just say that the Equality Ride is not challenging a school's "no sexual conduct before marriage" policy. I personally think Christian schools should talk about that more (like in this thread), but that is not discriminatory as long as it applies equally to both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

But that's not the case at Lee. Heterosexuals can be married (either religious or civil marriage) and then the thing that would previously have gotten them expelled is now celebrated. Not so with homosexuals.

Now a leader from another college, Bethel University, stated in a news interview, "We believe whether a student is gay or straight that those intimate forms of sexual behavior can only be expressed in the context of traditional marriage."

That statement includes the phrase "whether a student is gay or straight" in order to make it sound like the whole package is one of equality. Please don't buy it.

[Peter Z]

The Lee University handbook says that the school "stands firmly against those elements of the society which condone pre-marital and extra-marital sexual relations, homosexual practices and other forms of sexual behavior which violate Scripture."

Your response

But that's not the case at Lee. Heterosexuals can be married (either religious or civil marriage) and then the thing that would previously have gotten them expelled is now celebrated. Not so with homosexuals.

is not a the fault of Lee University, but the state of Tennessee which does not recognize same-sex marriage.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

The Lee University handbook says that the school "stands firmly against those elements of the society which condone pre-marital and extra-marital sexual relations, homosexual practices and other forms of sexual behavior which violate Scripture."

Your response is not a the fault of Lee University, but the state of Tennessee which does not recognize same-sex marriage.

so you're saying Lee University supports same-sex marriage? wow. that's progressive!

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

The Lee University student handbook reads:

"The university encourages wholesome interaction between the sexes but stands firmly against those elements of the society which condone pre-marital and extra-marital sexual relations, homosexual practices and other forms of sexual behavior which violate Scripture. Engaging in sexual acts expressly condemned in Scripture (premarital sex, adultery and homosexual practices) will result in suspension or expulsion."

Verani, how can you come down on the side of this not being discriminatory? Now let me just say that the Equality Ride is not challenging a school's "no sexual conduct before marriage" policy. I personally think Christian schools should talk about that more (like in this thread), but that is not discriminatory as long as it applies equally to both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

...

That statement includes the phrase "whether a student is gay or straight" in order to make it sound like the whole package is one of equality. Please don't buy it.

First let me state I do not attend Lee University so I cannot fully comment on their policy. Second, as the rule stands if a same sex couple were "married" then, and only then, would we see if a school accepts students in a same-sex marriage.

But, as I said before, the students I have known to be dismissed from a university were engaging in sexual relationships. I know of more then one who had a personal ad on a "hook-up" site. Those instances clearly fall well beyond the occurrence of sexual activity within committed relationship.

Yes the phrase "whether a student is gay or straight" is vital and key. While it may, more or less, be fluff now it is extremely progressive from where these schools were not even 5 years ago. The fact they added the phrase and are even considering it is a monumental step in the direction of GLBT rights. Yet my point comes down to, while to the schools and denominations they represent are making these steps The Equality Ride and Soulforce is continuing to demand more ground instead of meeting the schools where they are and then helping them take the next step.

So, let us take a moment and reflect on the Biblical story and of prodigal son and apply it to this situation, Luke 15:11-32 ),. The son took out on his own and abandoned his family, which no doubt hurt the family. When the son had lost everything and was destitute he decided to turn back to his father and beg for forgiveness and mercy. But when he returned to his father he was welcomed back, not as a servant but as a son. The traditional view of this is how to welcome back those who leave the “flock” and return, but it also speaks volumes to those who are part of the “flock” and dealing with those who have left.

At the risk of offense to my school I am going to propose that GLBT Christians are, in this case, like the father and the Churches are like the son. From this passage we see willingness by the side of the father to let the son go make his errors knowing he will soon see the errors of his choosing and will return. We do not see the actions taken by Soulforce and demand the son “repent” of his follies and return. Which rises the point, how much would the son have further rebelled or even refused to return if the father demanded he did so?

This is the point I wish to make; while Soulforce is a civil-rights movements the contexts in history are COMPETELY different. The policies of the colleges and universities are completely different then the racism of the past. They do not seek out to create separate homosexual and heterosexual distinctions. The schools are caught in centuries of church doctrine and dogma, which has stood for centuries. To use the example of a mountain, you can blow it apart and pick up the pieces after or you can wait for the natural changes that bring the mountains low. To insert a quip of sarcasm, the schools are not Burger King, you cannot have it “your way right away.”

Changing hearts and minds without bitter resentment takes time. And if the Soulforce truly cared for the schools why is there a refusal to anything but their way?
-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by Venari

At the risk of offense to my school I am going to propose that GLBT Christians are, in this case, like the father and the Churches are like the son. From this passage we see willingness by the side of the father to let the son go make his errors knowing he will soon see the errors of his choosing and will return. We do not see the actions taken by Soulforce and demand the son “repent” of his follies and return. Which rises the point, how much would the son have further rebelled or even refused to return if the father demanded he did so?

The son went on his way to make dreadful mistakes, but he was not trying to do active harm to his father, either physical harm or slander. And I think, were the father in this story under any actual threat from his son, the father would be justified in standing courageously, even confronting his son.

To bring it to the present case, if anti-gay Christians want to go off on an island by themselves and leave gay people alone, then there's no need for any protest. And I'm not particularly sure how I feel about people or organizations who aren't really actively anti-gay, but who tacitly support those who actually do speak and act in a bigoted way. It's like one person is stabbing you in the gut, while another person is standing there saying, "Well, maybe the knife in the gut is a little over the top, but we go to the same church so I'm not going to object too strongly." Which one is your friend?

Am I being over-dramatic? Well ... I live in Virginia, which is on the verge of amending the state constitution to rule not only that gay marriage is against the law, but that any private contracts between two citizens of the same gender are unenforceable when those contracts grant rights that straight people get through marriage. So my partner and I could draw up living wills, powers of attorney, hospital visitation papers etc. at the cost of thousands of dollars, but they might mean nothing when push comes to shove. In time of crisis, we could have the choice to fight it in the courts or accept being separated by the law. That feels like a tangible threat to me. This is largely at the behest of right wing churches, so I don't feel like I really have the luxury to sit back and let the churches "just make their mistakes." If they were only hurting themselves, sure, I can go along with what you say, but that isn't really accurate.

I don't feel the prodigal son is a particularly apt analogy. Don't really have a better one at the moment, though ...

hjh

[schoolboi]

If any Liberty students happen to read this thread, we would love to see and speak with you tomorrow (friday march 10) at the main entrance of the school by the ice center between 11-1. Come meet the folks on the equality ride.

[vaguy78]

Ya know initially i was kinda scared to actually go but i think i'm gonna try and go after convo tomorrow.

[cris]

Hi Venari,
First of all I want to echo the sentiments of others here in saying "thank you" for opening up this dialogue. I'm forced to really consider a lot of issues raised in the discussion and to question my own understanding of Soulforce.
Being quite new to Soulforce in terms of forum participation, I haven't entered into many dialogues. Perhaps this is in part due to hesitation, wondering if my beliefs would be "welcome" here. I have also experienced much rejection from folks, gay, straight or somewhere in between, Christian or non, and I sometimes keep my thoughts to myself, right or wrong, at least in this kind of setting. However, I cannot make blanket statements about any group, Soulforce, AOG, Catholics, Gay or Lesbian people, and I think you have also made the same point. Seeing your courage to speak out in such an articulate way also encourages me. We really don't know what others think until we ask, do we?
As to your rejection by GLBT Christians, what can I say other than the fact that too often oppressed people turn around and oppress others. I cannot speak for everyone, but I know a lot of LGBT folks who would not reject you. In fact I've a feeling I would like you. You are articulate, have a strong sense of who you are and have very firm beliefs to which you adhere. God bless you.
I want to present my perspective on the Freedom Rides. Perhaps it will not change your mind, but it may provide some food for thought. When I saw that the riders would be attending three universities which I attended I was excited and kind of terrified at the same time. I wondered if I would have the courage to face these school leaders and share my point of view. The answer now is a resounding YES. It wasn't so at the time I was a student. Things were not good for those of us, and there were many, who are gay or lesbian or in fact "different" from the mainstream. I'm sad to say that some of my gay friends have since lost their lives tragically, and for years I have blamed the religious institutions in part, because they were so intolerant that many of us sought out relationships in a clandestine manner, that often led to dangerous liaisons. If someone would have come to my campus to present an alternative point of view, I believe that this would have sparked a new sense of hope and perhaps given some of us a perspective on the world that we did not know existed beyond the walls of our religious upbringing. Sadly, for some like me, I turned my back completely on God, thinking that it was one or the other, God or being true to who I was. There was no alternative presented.
Now, because I know for a fact that risky behaviors continue at disproportionately higher rates amongst GLBT youth, including suicide rates, I remain concerned that societal institutions, including religion, continue to isolate and oppress lesbian and gay people. When an institution singles out a group of people (as my alma mater has) to form a policy that opposes them, yet does not do the same for others in their list of pet sins, I cannot support them. Even if their attitudes towards us do not change, having a specific policy cannot be justified as anything other than discriminating when it singles out a group of people because of WHO they are. I know of several occassions where the Board of one of my schools enforced a "witch hunt" to rid the school of gay and lesbian faculty and students. For those like me who wanted to attend a small Christian college, where I could continue on in my community of faith and gain a valuable education at the same time, even directed towards ministry, this creates a fierce dilemma. Would that these schools had an attitude that encouraged me to be who I rightfully know I am in God and at the same time nurture me without prejudice to form relationships with others like me that were also respectable like they tried to do with straight kids.
Anyway, my main point is that there are students (and faculty) within the schools that will be met along this route, who need the exposure that Soulforce will bring. The degree of exposure they choose is up to the students in my opinion, but I believe it is valuable and may actually help some of them to form new relationships or bonds that COULD save their lives. I hope that Soulforce represents us along the way. I admit that I am not certain of the exact approach the riders will take. (Perhaps you can report to us after they visit your school what took place.) My hope is that some in those schools will be "set free" from their oppressive chains and find their way to a loving God, as I have, only sooner.
Again, I bless you in Jesus's name.
Cris

[Venari]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

In time of crisis, we could have the choice to fight it in the courts or accept being separated by the law. That feels like a tangible threat to me. This is largely at the behest of right wing churches, so I don't feel like I really have the luxury to sit back and let the churches "just make their mistakes." If they were only hurting themselves, sure, I can go along with what you say, but that isn't really accurate.

Dewdrop,

You prove my point. Not all "right wing" Christians are in support of the marriage amendments now are all prone to stab someone. The point is we live in an entirely different world and another way needs to be found to bridge the gap between the "two sides" of this issue.

And to be completely forthright the fact you would willingly, and almost joyfully, accept all the people who show opposition to GLBT people to move to an island somewhere I find that right up the alley of hate speech. This leads to why the analogy I use is so key... Jesus constantly teaches loving our enemies. Yet I find many of the schools being "demonized" by the rhetoric of the Equality Ride, I do want to acknowledge it does go the other way ... but two wrongs do not make a right.

So the illustration of the father and sun is relevant, no matter how much someone else hurts you, there is always the need to be open and willing to welcome them back. I'm sorry you missed that point.

-Venari

[schoolboi]

Letter the editor published in News and Advance Lynchburg, VA today

Equality ‘Rides’ again
Godspeed to the group of courageous Equality Riders embarking this week on a journey across the country to bring the truth of God’s love and acceptance for His gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) children. It is high time that the immoral rhetoric and ungodly discriminatory policies of “Christian” institutions like Liberty University against GLBT people be exposed.
The Rev. Jerry Falwell, Liberty’s chancellor, has stated that he would rather see his school burn to the ground than accept the goals of the Equality Ride.
It was less than 40 years ago that he took a similar stand in denying admission to his church to people of color. Falwell called the Civil Rights movement the “Civil Wrongs” movement. Falwell is on the wrong side again.
I will not allow my faith to be hijacked by fundamentalist extremists who use the Bible as a weapon of mass destruction in God’s name against God’s gay children.
As a born-again Christian and future Christian leader who will begin seminary this fall, I am proud to lift my voice with countless other Christ-centered believers who are calling for the truth of God’s unconditional love and acceptance for GLBT people to be proclaimed.

COREY B. H
Lynchburg

[BruceChris]

Venari:

While there are more than one way of looking at any argument, one very basic fact seems to stand out: We are allowing, even inviting you to express your views in our space, but you very clearly do not want us to express our views in yours. Thoughts?

[Vanessa White]

Great letter, Corey! Fill us in on how the visit goes at Liberty today. My prayers and thoughts will be with you, the students at Liberty,and the riders. Be well Vanessa

[Venari]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

Venari:

While there are more than one way of looking at any argument, one very basic fact seems to stand out: We are allowing, even inviting you to express your views in our space, but you very clearly do not want us to express our views in yours. Thoughts?

BruceChris,

When did I ever say that? What I did say is 1. Soulforce is unwilling to meet the school hlaf way and 2. I am pointing out the how I think Soulforce is going about reaching the schools is wrong, from my pespective as a GLBT supporter at one of the schools.

I am sad to say you seem to have not read the entirety of my post/'s or you arleady readd them knowing what you wanted to say. So please have something construcitve to say and not a generic "accusation" of hyprocicsy.

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by schoolboi

Letter the editor published in News and Advance Lynchburg, VA today

Equality ‘Rides’ again
Godspeed to the group of courageous Equality Riders embarking this week on a journey across the country to bring the truth of God’s love and acceptance for His gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) children. It is high time that the immoral rhetoric and ungodly discriminatory policies of “Christian” institutions like Liberty University against GLBT people be exposed.
The Rev. Jerry Falwell, Liberty’s chancellor, has stated that he would rather see his school burn to the ground than accept the goals of the Equality Ride.
It was less than 40 years ago that he took a similar stand in denying admission to his church to people of color. Falwell called the Civil Rights movement the “Civil Wrongs” movement. Falwell is on the wrong side again.
I will not allow my faith to be hijacked by fundamentalist extremists who use the Bible as a weapon of mass destruction in God’s name against God’s gay children.
As a born-again Christian and future Christian leader who will begin seminary this fall, I am proud to lift my voice with countless other Christ-centered believers who are calling for the truth of God’s unconditional love and acceptance for GLBT people to be proclaimed.

COREY B. H
Lynchburg

Corey,

I applaud your courage. But I ask why is there no distinction between the blantant "hate speach" used by Rev. Falwell and Liberty and the more moderate schools, who does not want the Equality Ride to visit but is willing to a less "media circus" approach.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Venari

Corey,

I applaud your courage. But I ask why is there no distinction between the blantant "hate speach" used by Rev. Falwell and Liberty and the more moderate schools, who does not want the Equality Ride to visit but is willing to a less "media circus" approach.

-Venari

Venari,
I think you will see the distinctions as they unfold. Some of the schools are opening the doors to the riders and welcoming them. There won't be civil disobedience actions at those schools.

Liberty basically went into lockdown and is arresting the riders, who in an act of civil disobedience are going onto the grounds and reading the equality ride statement.

--I am only peripherally involved, so I may not have my facts straight.

[ochast]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

The [prodigal] son went on his way to make dreadful mistakes, but he was not trying to do active harm to his father, either physical harm or slander. And I think, were the father in this story under any actual threat from his son, the father would be justified in standing courageously, even confronting his son.

Very good point! If the son were hurting anyone, plenty of people would have good reason to stop him. Instead, he simply went out and spent all his money and ended up feeding the pigs and feeling sorry for himself.

Originally Posted by Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobediance

If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth -- certainly, the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself; then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn.

Originally Posted by Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Non-cooperation with evil is as much a moral imperative as cooperation with good.

We don't sit back and wait for a turnaround if someone is actively harming another. We don't condone their actions. We do what it takes to stop the harm.

[ochast]

OK, this discussion has gotten me wondering what the various schools' policies are. A little digging found that Soulfource has gathered the info together pretty neatly:
Here's the info on religious schools, and on military ones.

From Soulfource's intro re: religious schools:

The scope and enforcement of GLBT bans vary from school to school. Some religious schools prohibit "homosexual behavior," other schools go further by prohibiting students from self-identifying as GLBT people, and other schools go even further by prohibiting the "promotion of homosexuality," a statement which also bans straight allies who support GLBT equality.

Professors at religious schools with GLBT bans by and large teach from decidedly one-sided perspectives on homosexuality. All too frequently, professors are even required to sign declarations of faith that affirm the belief that homosexuality is sinful. For these reasons and more, it is not surprising that GLBT students at these schools find it difficult to accept their sexual orientation and/or gender identify.