On the Christian doctrine of original sin

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Are you sure you're Buddhist? This is pretty Christian orthodox! [grin]

Sometimes I'm not sure what I am! That said, maybe Buddhism and Christianity aren't as far apart as some suppose. I think the nexus (that's a cool word) where they connect is compassion and love.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Sometimes I'm not sure what I am! That said, maybe Buddhism and Christianity aren't as far apart as some suppose. I think the nexus (that's a cool word) where they connect is compassion and love.

A dear friend of mine considers himself to be in a middle ground between Buddism and Christianity, and I'm often amazed how close his thinking is to mine ... my evangelical training would have led me to assume it wouldn't be.

Nexus is a cool word. It's also a cool Dan Fogelberg song.

[u-dog]

I had a budhist parishioner for awhile. he had married a Christian girl during the war (he was japanese American from Hawaii) attended church with her every Sunday of their marriage, took communion, and understood Christian theology and spirituality far more profoundly than most christians. He continued to worship regularly even after she died. He chose NOT to be baptized because he didn't want to offend his family. He said he never stopped being a Buddhist.

I believe him. I also believe that he and Nellie will be together in Paradise when the time comes. if Calvin doesn't like it... well.... he's dead who cares what he thinks.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Yep, that's the product of a sick mind.

I can blame Quinn for the "leaver/taker" stuff, though.

And, yes, Dave, leaver/taker would be roughly equivalent to the hunter/gather vs cultivator stuff. I think we're talking similar languages.

You need to write a book about the nuances in the Hebrew scriptures. I mean, if I ever write a paper on anything that has to do with scripture and historical, cultural, or linguistic context, I need to be able to quote you. Don't die anytime soon! Or else....

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Gregory_de_Bois

You need to write a book about the nuances in the Hebrew scriptures. I mean, if I ever write a paper on anything that has to do with scripture and historical, cultural, or linguistic context, I need to be able to quote you. Don't die anytime soon! Or else....

He's WAY too Mean to Die, Greg. And he makes all that stuff up anyway. He doesn't really know anything.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Originally Posted by u-dog

He's WAY too Mean to Die, Greg. And he makes all that stuff up anyway. He doesn't really know anything.

Ah snap! He is a good liar. He would be immortalized if he did die, at least if he had written the book on everything he doesn't know.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by u-dog

He's WAY too Mean to Die, Greg. And he makes all that stuff up anyway. He doesn't really know anything.

Originally Posted by Gregory_de_Bois

Ah snap! He is a good liar. He would be immortalized if he did die, at least if he had written the book on everything he doesn't know.

There's an adage about knowledge that goes something like:

First, there's the stuff you know you know. Next, there's the stuff you know you don't know. Lastly, there's the vast majority of stuff to be known that you have no idea that you don't know.

I find that way too restricting. I can go with the first two notions. But, that last one, I don't think so. From my perspective it should read, "Lastly there's the vast majority of stuff to be known that people have no idea that I know - if I can only make it sound plausible, they'll be convinced."

It works something like this.

"What do you suppose that black thingy next to the air conditioner compressor is, Uncle Andy?"

"Well, Alphonse, that's a floydt valve."

"Ooh! What does it do?"

"It controls the flow of reconstituted anhydrous petrolium distillates to the floydt receptor in the cold module."

"Cool"

"Yes, I am. By the way, Alphonse, do you know that the woman who invented the floydt valve was a direct decendent of the Syro-Phoenician woman with the constant flow. In Syro-Phoenician, floydt mean cork."

"Wow! You know everything, Uncle Andy."

"Yes, I do. By the way, did you know that Andrew is Scottish for 'manly', but Andy is Hebrew for 'better looking than a u-dog'?"

[u-dog]

Hey Andy! You are pretty good with the Techno-babble, my wife says you obviously watch too much Star Trek.

[Dash]

Andy, did you learn from Calvin's dad, or did he learn from you?

Calvin: Why does the sun set?
Dad: It's because hot air rises. The sun's hot in the middle of the day, so it rises high in the
sky. In the evening then, it cools down and sets.
C: Why does it go from east to west?
D: Solar wind.

C: Why does the sky turn red as the sun sets?
D: That's all the oxygen in the atmosphere catching fire.
C: Where does the sun go when it sets?
D: The sun sets in the west. In Arizona actually, near Flagstaff.
C: Oh.
D: That's why the rocks there are so red.
C: Don't the people get burned up?
D: No, the sun goes out as it sets. That's why it is dark at night.
C: Doesn't the sun crush the whole state when it lands?
D: Ha ha, of course not. Hold a quarter up. See, the sun's just about the same size.
C: I thought I read that the sun was really big.
D: You can't believe everything you read, I'm afraid.
C: So how does the sun rise in the east if it lands in Arizona each night?
D: Well, time for bed.

[Dash]

Hmmm...I forgot I was having some thoughts recently that were actually related to the topic of this thread. The conversation over in the "Bible Words" reminded me, so here goes:

Eve = Tent (didn't know that, thanks guys) = Body
Adam = (by way of the story and metaphor) breath of god = spirit

All evil (pain) in the world is due to our physical incarnation (at least that's how I read the story). We sense our banishment from the garden (that is the realm of spirit) and we curse this "tent" (represented by Eve...mistakenly laid on women) this temporary dwelling. Because of the hardships we endure and the feeling of exile...we imagine that we have been punished and that therefore there must be a reason for the punishment--a first sin, for which we all continually suffer.
Other aspects in the story that I see...

Covering with fig leaves = sensing the spirits in Nature (spirits hiding in trees)...begs the question, "Is Nature imbued with a soul"...first incarnation in trees???

Covering with animal skins = taking animal form (second incarnation??)...inhabiting animals...specifically this primate body...tent...dwelling.

The great flaming sword angel guarding the gates of Eden = our terrible fear of death and the great dividing of our soul from our body that we must face to re-enter that paradise.


I dunno...whatchya think?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Dash

Hmmm...I forgot I was having some thoughts recently that were actually related to the topic of this thread. The conversation over in the "Bible Words" reminded me, so here goes:

Eve = Tent (didn't know that, thanks guys) = Body
Adam = (by way of the story and metaphor) breath of god = spirit

All evil (pain) in the world is due to our physical incarnation (at least that's how I read the story). We sense our banishment from the garden (that is the realm of spirit) and we curse this "tent" (represented by Eve...mistakenly laid on women) this temporary dwelling. Because of the hardships we endure and the feeling of exile...we imagine that we have been punished and that therefore there must be a reason for the punishment--a first sin, for which we all continually suffer.
Other aspects in the story that I see...

Covering with fig leaves = sensing the spirits in Nature (spirits hiding in trees)...begs the question, "Is Nature imbued with a soul"...first incarnation in trees???

Covering with animal skins = taking animal form (second incarnation??)...inhabiting animals...specifically this primate body...tent...dwelling.

The great flaming sword angel guarding the gates of Eden = our terrible fear of death and the great dividing of our soul from our body that we must face to re-enter that paradise.


I dunno...whatchya think?

I think you are a FLAMING GNOSTIC !!!!! Thats what I think. ( but I love you anyway! ) The kind of body/spirit dualism that you are describing is very GREEK but quite foreign to the Semitic world view.

The Hebrew word for "soul" is "Nephesh" which is related to the word for neck or throat. In other words the place where Ru-ach (breath, wind, spirit) meets Body. The Hebrew understanding of human anthropology is that we are totally integrated (body with spirit). In Genesis, Ha'Adama (the earth creature) remains a handful of mud until God breaths his/her Spirit into him.

[BrentRichards]

Nonetheless, the "tent" idea is not insignificant ... I never put it in touch with Eve ... but the theme of our incarnation here as a "tent" (same as "tabernacle") recurs frequently throughout Scripture ... most notably in 2 Cor 5:1 ... "Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."

The idea of the fleeting nature of our physical existence is not unimportant ... and a shade of dualism does creep into the NT understanding, or at least, is easy to read there, wouldn't you say, Dave? In any case, the "tent" or "tabernacle" isn't an insignificant concept in Scripture (John 1 - "The word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.") ... I never saw it starting with Eve.

[BrentRichards]

First, there's the stuff you know you know. Next, there's the stuff you know you don't know. Lastly, there's the vast majority of stuff to be known that you have no idea that you don't know.

Uncle Andy's in good company ...

[BrentRichards]

Double posted, sorry

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Nonetheless, the "tent" idea is not insignificant ... I never put it in touch with Eve ... but the theme of our incarnation here as a "tent" (same as "tabernacle") recurs frequently throughout Scripture ... most notably in 2 Cor 5:1 ... "Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."

The idea of the fleeting nature of our physical existence is not unimportant ... and a shade of dualism does creep into the NT understanding, or at least, is easy to read there, wouldn't you say, Dave? In any case, the "tent" or "tabernacle" isn't an insignificant concept in Scripture (John 1 - "The word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.") ... I never saw it starting with Eve.

Point well taken, Brent, it is common in the NT but then the NT is largely a Koine Greek document written by people who live, breath, and have their being in a largely Greek/Roman world. It's also significant that our Faith testifies to a BODILY RESURRECTION in which we are made alive not as disembodied spirits but in brand, spanking (take a deep breath Stevie, thats not what I'm talkin about) new spiritual BODIES.

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Sometimes I'm not sure what I am! That said, maybe Buddhism and Christianity aren't as far apart as some suppose. I think the nexus (that's a cool word) where they connect is compassion and love.

Little bit the same on the outside, but nothing the same on the inside.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Little bit the same on the outside, but nothing the same on the inside.

Comparison would imply that one has experience of both. What is your experience of the "inside" of Buddhism? Daniel has been "inside" both Christianity and Buddhism. Tell us about your experience of Buddhism Zoom!

[tdogg]

The spine of both beliefs is love and compassion born of love. Without that, you would not have Christianity (as taught by Jesus not necessarily practiced by those who call themselves Christians) nor would you have Buddhism.

Not so different if love is truly on the inside.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Little bit the same on the outside, but nothing the same on the inside.

As tdogg has eloquently written, the spine of both faiths is love and compassion.

I find it benefical to focus on similarities rather than differences. Substance rather than form. Focusing on the latter only leads to division, competition and idolatry. Of course, Buddhism and Christianity are not the 'same'.


~

Gay people aren't exactly the 'same' as straight people, yet we have more in common than we have differences.


~


I've never forgotten a conversation I had with my mother about a matter of faith. I said something she didn't like and she said: "How can you talk about my Jesus that way." To which I responded. "I didn't know you owned him."

To her credit, she laughed.

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Comparison would imply that one has experience of both. What is your experience of the "inside" of Buddhism? Daniel has been "inside" both Christianity and Buddhism. Tell us about your experience of Buddhism Zoom!

Don't have much time to write a long post, so I'll give you the gist of all that I need to say.

Buddha is dead, Christ is a live.