A Visit to the Creation Museum

[revtj]

http://crazytalk.typepad.com/bluegra..._the_crea.html

One responder called it child abuse.

Is intellectual abuse (brainwashing) recognized by the APA?

I wonder if Osama has a similar Koran exhibit for his devotees in training?

[tdogg]

That's not a museum (just another lie/deceit), it's a hall of propoganda.

$27 million???

Other than that, I'm just speechless right now.

[revtj]

Think how many starving & homeless people those christians could have helped with the money!

[Pablo Rafael]

I heard about the opening of this "museum" on NPR.

First off let me say that I believe people have the right to have a "museum" about what they wish. I also think I (and others) have the right to disagree and criticize.

Also just to state my position on evolution/creation: I believe that God created the universe and all the laws by which it operates. Whether it took 6 days or billions of years doesn't matter to me. I believe in the Biblical account, but I do not look at it as a scientific document. I think the creation account may be more figuative than literal; I don't think that being figurative lessens the meaning at all. I believe that God created a mature universe with evolution already in place and all fully formed. I see no conflict with a divine creation and a universe 15 billion years old. God can create anything at any age.

I'm taking a long time to get to my point. There are so many varied ideas as to how God created the world. There is the 4004 BC creation date that some people swear is the only scriptural option. Others say that each day of creation was millions or billions of years; they have Bible verses to prove it. Others say that all formations, extinctions etc. were caused by the flood. Everyone is sure they have the "correct" Biblical explanation.

So if we have a "Creation" museum, whose view of creation do we use for the museum? And what do we do with the scientific facts? What I find offensive is not that people have a museum, but that they select only facts that support an already predetermined idea. To be real science one has to deal with the facts as they are uncovered. This museum masquerades as science. It also emphasizes the divide between creation and evolution. I have heard from a lot of Christians who, like me, have no trouble in accepting both views and see no real conflict between the two.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by revtj

Think how many starving & homeless people those christians could have helped with the money!

That is a very self-righteous thing to say. Put it into perspective of what the "christians" are trying to do when creating such a museum.

That's not a museum (just another lie/deceit), it's a hall of propoganda.

$27 million???

Other than that, I'm just speechless right now.

What kind of propoganda is it that every public school must teach evolution? To me, evolution is just another belief system and yet it somehow supercedes the notion of separation of church and state.

There was a news article I once read about a school up in Washington. This is basically what happened: little stickers were placed in Biology books at a public school. These stickers told the readers that they should read the contents of the book knowing that there are other views about the origin of the universe. An atheist complained about the stickers saying that they were unconstitutional. A judge had the stickers removed them saying because these stickers violated separation of church and state.

Tell me, how is it that it is ok for evolution to be taught in all public schools while it would be unconstitutional to have any other view be taught?

What did Hitler do? (Other than slaughter 6 million jews). He created the Hitler youth. Get them while they are young! What are public schools doing? Breeding tiny little atheists while they are young. That is propoganda.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

That is a very self-righteous thing to say. Put it into perspective of what the "christians" are trying to do when creating such a museum.

Plank ... Splinter

Hmm... which one of these is yours?

[lydiam]

my two cents...
God is revealed more each year, each day, each moment. Science is a part of our growing understanding. Ignoring science is ignoring the beautiful mystery being revealed and is... kind of rediculous! Kind of like taking stories and parables literally rather than gathering a greater understanding from them... like there's someting bigger than you, which is the meaning I find in the creation stories in Genesis. It's not seeing the forest for the trees. I have, since these Jesus fish/ Darwin fish wars began wanted to put one of each on my car and now they are making the ones where the Jesus fish and the Darwin fish are kissing! I'm on the lookout for one of those.

This museum makes me want to laugh because it seems silly, and makes me want to cry because it's a huge case of missing the point. I feel scared for how many people could come out so misinformed about the point of Christianity.

[Emproph]

Science - ORIGIN Latin scientia, from scire 'know.'

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Put it into perspective of what the "christians" are trying to do when creating such a museum.

I think we have, theocracy. Intelligent design/creationism is a ploy to discredit not just evolution but the entire scientific method of knowing, as in methodological or methods-of-logic. It’s harder to legally define others as inferior if they can think for themselves and ask questions.

The propaganda isn't in teaching creationism, it's in teaching it as science.

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

What kind of propoganda is it that every public school must teach evolution? To me, evolution is just another belief system and yet it somehow supercedes the notion of separation of church and state.

Do you care to expound on that? Evolution is based on measurable evidence, and obviously you don't believe that ALL measurable evidence is simply a "belief system."

From the article:

Early in the museum, the visitor is given advice on the proper mind frame to have for your visit: “Don’t think, just listen and believe”. As you can see in the picture below, Human Reason is the enemy and God’s Word is the hero.

Who do you think created human reason and all the evidence for evolution?

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

There was a news article I once read about a school up in Washington. This is basically what happened: little stickers were placed in Biology books at a public school. These stickers told the readers that they should read the contents of the book knowing that there are other views about the origin of the universe. An atheist complained about the stickers saying that they were unconstitutional. A judge had the stickers removed them saying because these stickers violated separation of church and state.

Tell me, how is it that it is ok for evolution to be taught in all public schools while it would be unconstitutional to have any other view be taught?

They can teach those views, just not as science. Beliefs are not science.

Re, the story you mentioned:

"Adopted by the school board, funded by the money of taxpayers, and inserted by school personnel, the sticker conveys an impermissible message of endorsement and tells some citizens that they are political outsiders while telling others they are political insiders," U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper said in his 44-page ruling.

Would you support an effort to have all Bibles come with a scientific disclaimer?

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

What did Hitler do? (Other than slaughter 6 million jews). He created the Hitler youth. Get them while they are young! What are public schools doing? Breeding tiny little atheists while they are young. That is propoganda.

That's exactly what the theocrats are doing by attempting to abolish critical thinking skills in children via propaganda.

And the claim that teaching evolution is the same as teaching atheism is scurrilous. That's like saying that describing HOW something works is teaching atheism. Many people, including myself, believe in a created evolution. You can complain all you like about how inaccurate you think my views are, but to say I don't believe in God because of it is a lie.

And as far as your propaganda/Hitler analogy goes:

Propaganda is a type of message aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people. Instead of impartially providing information, propaganda can present facts but do so selectively, produce deliberately misleading information, or load messages, whether essentially truthful or not, with emotional meaning in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the message that is being presented.

That's quintessential religious Reich tactics. When they can't win on scripture, skew the facts -- and then accuse the other side of lying.
___
Here's another place where we discussed this before:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/show...hlight=science

PS lydiam, I liked your response.

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by Emproph

That's exactly what the theocrats are doing by attempting to abolish critical thinking skills in children via propaganda.

Yup, that's it in a nutshell.

Joseph Kramer once said something like, the Jesuits, by teaching you HOW to think, forever give up the ability to teach you WHAT to think. (inexact paraphrase but that's the gist)

James

[alakazoom87]

Quote:
"Adopted by the school board, funded by the money of taxpayers, and inserted by school personnel, the sticker conveys an impermissible message of endorsement and tells some citizens that they are political outsiders while telling others they are political insiders," U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper said in his 44-page ruling.

Would you support an effort to have all Bibles come with a scientific disclaimer?

No I don't. Why? Because, people aren't being forced to read the Bible. Students in Junior/Senior School have to read Biology books that teach evolution.

That's exactly what the theocrats are doing by attempting to abolish critical thinking skills in children via propaganda.

Are you telling me that the only reason evolution is in schools today is to help students with their critical thinking skills?

Many people, including myself, believe in a created evolution.

I'd like to here how you can explain that evolution is a God driven process.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I'd like to here how you can explain that evolution is a God driven process.

No, you wouldn't. You've already proven conclusively that you aren't here to HEAR anything.

[revtj]

I'd like to here how you can explain that evolution is a God driven process.

No, I agree with Brent. You aren't here to learn. Google process theology and get back to me after you've read at least one book by Alfred North Whitehead and Albert Einstein, both of whom believed in God and evolution.

Originally Posted by revtj View Post
Think how many starving & homeless people those christians could have helped with the money!
That is a very self-righteous thing to say. Put it into perspective of what the "christians" are trying to do when creating such a museum.

Here's a challenge for you: Count the number of scripture verses that deal with the poor and how we treat them. Then count the number of scripture verses that refer to the Genesis creation. Then you do the math.

Last time I checked, salvation was not directly nor even indirectly related to a person's views on evolution.

PS NOTE TO MODERATOR: RETURN TO BOUNDARIES PLEASE!

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

No, you wouldn't. You've already proven conclusively that you aren't here to HEAR anything.

Why? Because I disagree with 95% of what you guys agree with?

I would honestly like to hear how you can hold to a theistic evolution process.

Here's a challenge for you: Count the number of scripture verses that deal with the poor and how we treat them. Then count the number of scripture verses that refer to the Genesis creation. Then you do the math.

Last time I checked, salvation was not directly nor even indirectly related to a person's views on evolution.

PS NOTE TO MODERATOR: RETURN TO BOUNDARIES PLEASE!

I strongly believe that Theistic Evolution is an oxymoron. Evolution is a tool, used by atheists to rid themselves of the fact that God created this universe. And so, by filling public schools with evolution notions of origin, atheists are successfully capturing the minds of our youth in order to influence them into not believing in God.

Salvation is related to a person's view on whether or not God exists. Not to mention, the process of evolution restricts the power of our Creator. I believe in a God that created the heavens and the earth, I do not believe in a creator that relies on mistakes and death (natural selection).

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I'd like to here how you can explain that evolution is a God driven process.

It's your job to explain how creationism is a scientifically driven process.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Why? Because I disagree with 95% of what you guys agree with?

I would honestly like to hear how you can hold to a creation-evolution process.

Again, no, you wouldn't. If you were interested in what I or others here have to say on that topic, you'd have noticed that we've already discussed it in some detail ON THREADS IN WHICH YOU HAVE PARTICIPATED. You don't listen, you don't respond to anyone's reasonable points or questions ... you beat your drum. So now, I'm gonna beat a drum. No, you don't want to hear, so no, I'm not going to explain myself again.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by revtj

PS NOTE TO MODERATOR: RETURN TO BOUNDARIES PLEASE!

disagreement, no matter how irritating, is not a violation of the guidelines.

however, when a guideline is violated, and I happen to miss it, don't hesitate to hit the "report" button. I got to use the ban button on the first day that Jamie was gone. I'd love to use it again!

[revtj]

Alakazoom, if a gay christian believes in creationism and rejects evolutionary theory, is that OK? Are you OK with gay christians who see the authority of the bible and interpret the christian faith the same way you do?

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I'd like to here how you can explain that evolution is a God driven process.

My watch is a God driven process. My dishwasher is a God driven process. My computer is a God driven process.

Somebody, God, had to “create” the millions of people that had anything to do with the human souls responsible for inventing, and designing, and testing, and promoting, and selling, and repairing...all those things, and everything else.

And it’s still happening. Creation is NOW. Science is just the description of it.

It’s like your first question as to whether we think the Bible or the Constitution is more important. That’s like asking whether freedom is more important than the effects of freedom.

My toothbrush is a God driven process. God is literally thinking everything into creation AS-IT-SURROUNDS-US.

Do you think God didn’t know we’d be arguing about this right now?

If you have an issue with science then you have an issue with God’s creation of it.

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Evolution is a tool, used by atheists to rid themselves of the fact that God created this universe. And so, by filling public schools with evolution notions of origin, atheists are successfully capturing the minds of our youth in order to influence them into not believing in God.

Since Darwin was the original formulator of the theory of evolution (or the first to develop it systematically in a book-length work), let's go back to Darwin.

Did Darwin collect reams of observational evidence in favor of natural selection for the purpose of promoting atheism? Or was he studying the evidence and proposing a hypothesis that explained the facts?

Actually Darwin was a theist if I recall correctly.

I think your assertion here is pretty far removed from the history of the theory.
James

[tdogg]

James, I believe you are right with Darwin being a theist.

Zoom, I have a handful of questions for you, if you care/dare to answer:

1. What in your opinion is the DEFINITION of evolution?

2. What do you see as the problem with believing in God and also believing in the process of evolution?

3. If you feel that creationism, I'm assuming based on your view of the Bible and the creation story (sub question - which version??), should be taught in public schools, how do you feel about other religious beliefs also being taught in public schools (to you or anyone else you care about)?

4. Why do you feel that your belief is the only true belief?


$27 million is a heck of a lot of money to be wasted on a museum of propoganda. If Christians indeed opted to spend that money on this project, I would think the love they should have learned from Jesus might have prompted them to spend a lot less and use some of that $27 to YES feed the poor, provide medical supplies/services, education, assistance to the elderly in their congregations, just about anything else would have been a wiser choice.

This is a capitalist society and it is their perogative to spend their money however they wish. But truly, this seems to be a vast waste of it at the least. For those who may have donated funds to these people that were spent on this, they should be steaming mad. They could have done this on a website for MUCH LESS $$ and gotten the same message across. When I was told about this a few years ago, it was mentioned that the creation museum actually held EVIDENCE of creationism. Can anyone (perhaps Zoom?) expound on the actual EVIDENCE that might be held there? Or is this just another example of the lies and deceit that these people continue to spew forth?