Biblical problems with gay marriage?

[sjbouza]

alakazoom87...I have this to ask of you.

Prove to me, as well as anyone else on this forum that you are right. That homosexuality is wrong. Prove it beyond a doubt!!!

Sorry but it is a loaded question because you cant prove it. In no way can you prove that homosexuality is wrong. You can quote verse after verse all you want, that is NOT proof by any means of the word. One follows the Bible by faith and faith alone. You dont know for absolute fact that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one, you just HOPE it is.

It seems convenient that you jump to arms when the Christian right is all lumped into one group and generalized about. But you seem to have no problem with the Christian right lumping all homosexuals into one generalized group. That sir is the definition of hypocrisy. Your true colors have come through.

The number one and probably only reason that Dobson and Roberston have jumped on the anti gay bandwagon is they see the monitary value of it. These people arent concerned with your soul they are concerned with your wallet. I have watched the 700 Club a few times and each and every time Roberston pleas for money. The man doesnt even believe that the Bible is perfect. His own words.

What people are trying to say here, and you are missing the point as you usually do, is that the Christian right needs to clean its own backyard up before they start telling others that theirs is a mess. They love to use the Bible to "prove" whatever, but when it is turned back on them, they use the excuse that it doesnt mean that anymore. As was asked above, who on this earth has the authority to say what the Bible does or doesnt say anymore. NO ONE!!! It is up to each person to interpret the Bible in his/her own life. It isnt up to you to tell me or anyone else what we can or cannot do. Where in the Bible did it ever say, "make them believe just like you do or else?" NO WHERE!!!

The holier than thou attitude is getting a little boring and somewhat irritating!!! You can only go by what you "think" the Bible says or what someone else has told you it says. You cannot PROVE in any way shape or form that you are correct.

Sadly I must end this...my BOYFRIEND ( )is calling.

[ladyinred]

SjBousa "What people are trying to say here, and you are missing the point as you usually do, is that the Christian right needs to clean its own backyard up before they start telling others that theirs is a mess. They love to use the Bible to "prove" whatever, but when it is turned back on them, they use the excuse that it doesnt mean that anymore. "

Point well taken. Of course it only does with their (The Christian right)reference to gays.
We all have enough to worry about with our own backyard.
But one correction,
please SjBousa,and this is meant with no disrespect, we do not put our faith in the bible but in God and his Spirit alone. The bible is controversial as it is, we do not put faith in, God alone we put faith and trust in. When you understand that God's word is written in your heart and as in 2 Cor 3:3 Clearly,you are a letter from Christ prepared by us, It is written not with pen and ink, but the Spirit of the living God." It is carved not on stone,but the human heart."
2Cor 3:4-6 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. I personally think when we know the peace of God we will understand our true direction and course in life.Let God speak through your heart and not the words of a written book. "My peace I give unto you,not as the world giveth do I give unto you, let your heart neither be troubled or afraid."Jesus Christ

[ladyinred]

Hey could you all help me with indenting the quotes, I still haven't figured out what to do with it, That way I can properly separate my words from others words and quotes ,thanks .

[sjbouza]

Originally Posted by ladyinred

Hey could you all help me with indenting the quotes, I still haven't figured out what to do with it, That way I can properly separate my words from others words and quotes ,thanks .

Just click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post you want to quote. If you dont want to quote the entire thing you can delete the parts you dont want to use.

[ladyinred]

Thank you, thank you, I have been grappling with that for a long time.

[ladyinred]

"The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality."

Self righteousness is not righteousness.It is judgmental and blind-sided. None of us has the right to say we are the best or more superior to anyone else.You base everything on comparisons.Not one person can claim to be perfect or all knowing in God's eyes. Go back to the verses and what Jesus says about judgmentalism."Can the blind lead the blind? " He said
Precisely because you judge others you cannot see reality,you are blinded to it.And because you judge, you do not understand other people;in other words,you do not walk in their shoes,so to speak.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Do you honestly believe that any Christian that believes homosexuality is a bigot/hypocrite? Basically, you are putting all Christians who don't believe on your views of what sexual immorality is in one category, and that by default is wrong.

Your argument seems to say: right Christians shouldn't have any concern for homosexual Christians because right Christians are all having premarital sex, all right Christians are divorced, and all right Christians are hypocrites. Do you see how unfair this is? The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality.

Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians.

*prepares to be hated and yelled at by soulforce forum although alakazoom87 has not stated his own beliefs on the matter*

Zoom, you seem to be quite upset over what people have posted in response to your postings...perhaps you feel that people are disrespecting you? Being rude and less than compassionate? Treating you like a second-hand citizen, maybe?

Welcome to our world buddy. We live through this on a daily basis. This is one of the first steps a person must take if they truly want to understand someone else. If you want to really dialogue with us (forget the witnessing part by the way), you must understand us. To do that you must try to walk a few steps in our shoes. To do that you have to either empathize with us or experience somehow what we do. Sounds like you have started to take a small baby step perhaps?

Anyways, I think it will go a long way in talking to others on THIS forum and in getting responses that might be more in line with what you anticipate.

[d_pedr]

Hi All

If physical Sex unites those involved (see Paul's views in 1 Cor 6:16b "The two will become one flesh"). This would mean that most of us have many more husbands or wives than anyone would think!

Then, there is same sex marriage, and I have seen several in these forums lasting over 15 years, and at least one of over 29 years. These would have started long before any legal arguments as to whether they should be allowed.

My marriage lasted physically 11 years, legally before separation 9 years, and about 10 and a half years from wedding to divorce. Any of these figures do not match up to those mentioned above.

So which is a better human demonstration of God's love for his church?

I know what I think and take my hat off to those whose relationships have lasted.

love and hugs to you all

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Zoom, you seem to be quite upset over what people have posted in response to your postings...perhaps you feel that people are disrespecting you? Being rude and less than compassionate? Treating you like a second-hand citizen, maybe?

Welcome to our world buddy. We live through this on a daily basis. This is one of the first steps a person must take if they truly want to understand someone else. If you want to really dialogue with us (forget the witnessing part by the way), you must understand us. To do that you must try to walk a few steps in our shoes. To do that you have to either empathize with us or experience somehow what we do. Sounds like you have started to take a small baby step perhaps?

Anyways, I think it will go a long way in talking to others on THIS forum and in getting responses that might be more in line with what you anticipate.

TDogg- you hit the nail on the head! If straight people would just jump off their high horses and live like we have to live for one freaking day, they would be up in arms storming their churches, and their government for change. The reason straight people, at least most of them, don't care what happens to us, is that it DOESN'T HAPPEN TO THEM!!!!!! It's like sometimes we casually drive past the homeless guy on the street corner and because it isn't us, we have little empathy.

I just want them to spend one day in our shoes!!!!

[alakazoom87]

So, I see that I've got a lot of responses to look at.

Ladyinred, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't help each other with our sins. You seem to be saying that having accountability for our sins is basically illogical, because the person who will be keeping us in check is only judging us.

If a buddy of mine says that he is a Christian but is also a fornicator, I am going to go point out his sin to him. Is that judging? Is it wrong of me to worry about the spiritual health of my friend? No, actually it is biblical that we take care of each other not only physically but spiritually as well.

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.



P.S.

Boy does typing on a forum take patience heh, I wish I could talk instead.

[alakazoom87]

Originally Posted by d_pedr

Hi All

If physical Sex unites those involved (see Paul's views in 1 Cor 6:16b "The two will become one flesh"). This would mean that most of us have many more husbands or wives than anyone would think!

Then, there is same sex marriage, and I have seen several in these forums lasting over 15 years, and at least one of over 29 years. These would have started long before any legal arguments as to whether they should be allowed.

My marriage lasted physically 11 years, legally before separation 9 years, and about 10 and a half years from wedding to divorce. Any of these figures do not match up to those mentioned above.

So which is a better human demonstration of God's love for his church?

I know what I think and take my hat off to those whose relationships have lasted.

love and hugs to you all

I'm trying to follow what you are saying here:

Are you saying that by having sex you are automatically married?

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

So, I see that I've got a lot of responses to look at.

Ladyinred, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't help each other with our sins. You seem to be saying that having accountability for our sins is basically illogical, because the person who will be keeping us in check is only judging us.

If a buddy of mine says that he is a Christian but is also a fornicator, I am going to go point out his sin to him. Is that judging? Is it wrong of me to worry about the spiritual health of my friend? No, actually it is biblical that we take care of each other not only physically but spiritually as well.

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.



P.S.

Boy does typing on a forum take patience heh, I wish I could talk instead.

Thank you.

[tdogg]

Why do I have to be accountable to an imperfect person in regards to whether or not I'm sinning? Which person gets to decide? I don't need a human being to point out what they feel are my sins. That means that person would be the one to decide I'm sinning, and exactly what sin they feel I'm commiting. I have God for that.

Now, perhaps if I'm breaking human-made laws or hurting another person, then sure, I could see someone pointing that out to me (or law enforcement).

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.

Perhaps a little research is in order here.

Originally Posted by 1clickanswer.com

big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French, from Old French.]

WORD HISTORY Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant “an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.” Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

Well....I think the general observation on this forum is that your views fall squarely within the definition in bold above.

No one like to think of themselves as being bigoted. I certainly don't. But I've come to realize that I have all sorts of uncharitable views about things and people lurking around in my head. One has to be carefully taught to think such things. At least, that's my observation.

Have you ever watched a child? Really observed them? (I taught school so I know what I'm talking about here.) They soak up the world around them with eyes of wonder, like houses with the doors thrown wide open.

They don't care about straight or gay, black or white, Democrat or Republican. What changes that? Other people. Children are frightfully good mimics. They learn to walk and talk like their parents. Think like 'em too.

Maybe this is why the bible talks about having to be like a little child to enter the Kingdom of God.

A little wonder might get us all there.

[ladyinred]

Daniel,I have alot of respect for you because of your honesty.We all fall short but it takes alot of introspection and honesty to admit that we have our own issues so to speak. But that's also a catalyst for change and growing.

[Emproph]

I'm also a hateful bigot (I tend to hate bigots). But I don't mistake that for Christian love.

[ladyinred]

http://www.holisticharmony.com/cours...01miracles.asp Often those who judge others and who hold prejudicial views are dealing with a distorted sense of reality that they project on others.

[ladyinred]

The question Alakazoom is why such a preoccupation with homosexuality? Why do you think it is your duty to judge and save other people?Are they asking for your help or advice? Are they asking you to save them? Again why did Jesus say to focus on the beam in your own eye before you offer to help remove the speck in anothers. Think about what is at the heart of his message.

You perhaps need to examine your own motives before "helping" others perhaps? What you don't see is none here is interested in changing to conform to your world views and judgments of right and wrong. They aren't interested in fitting your mental box or preconceptions of how they need to behave or should change to find grace and acceptance in your eyes,nor do they need your approval.

Is it that you see something you don't like about homosexuality based in your belief that they are "evil" and should change? That is your perception not theirs nor their belief about themselves, they just don't happen to agree with your evaluation of them. If you are hell bent on trying to change them and convince them of how "wrong" they are, it won't work. Are you somehow affected negatively by that? It has nothing to do with you and your life and they certainly aren't harming you in any way.

They just happen not to agree with you,is the world going to come to an end if they don't?

[ladyinred]

In other words people can only be true to themselves. They shouldn't have to try to change just so you think they are "ok." You may need to deal with that issue your self. They "is" what they "is" .Perhaps you haven't heard that the key to mental health is "to thine own self be true" Or happy is the man who is mentally faithful to himself. Alakazoom. You can take us or "leave" us. Your choice. But we are what we are and you cannot change us or convince us to be different.No one here should feel compelled to explain anything to you.
Perhaps this poem will explain it: (This a gift to you all)

Unconditionally Me

by Jim Messina

I am who I am

You cannot change me so please do not try

So let up with the criticisms, put downs and attempts to make me fit your "box" for me

Face it, it is easier for you just to accept me as I am than to work at making me who you want me to be

Of course you do not have to agree with what I say or do

Just accept me as the human I am

I am weak, have sinned, failed, and have made many mistakes in my life

Hey, that's what makes me the "unique me" that I am

I will never be perfect, ideal, or the "image" you want for me

Accept me for who I am as I accept you for who you are

Let's have fun together and allow our "real selves" the freedom to be "us"

We can be a team of unconditional mutual love and acceptance if you relax and let it happen

[ladyinred]

http://www.whitecranejournal.com/wc01116.htm

Excerpt from the article:
"Yet another facet of The Shadow is the reality, obvious to gay men but compulsively opaque to most straight people, that the sexual sins that homosexuals get blamed for, especially child molestation and devaluating the family, are in fact behaviors of heterosexuals that the mainstream culture supports them in denying, like sexual attraction to their own children and loss of interest in their marriages. Their problems are projected onto us, the gay men whose lives are lived in the culture's Shadow. We get blamed for the culture's problems and laws get passed against us, but nobody actually addresses the real problems."


Now these statements are not being judgmental, what they are saying is we can not hope to solve societal problems by scapegoating a certain group of people. We have to deal with them individually and collectively. (Me)


"Shadow as Internalized Homophobia "

In the gay world, Shadow has another sort of meaning, parallel to the Jungian but with a different emphasis. Here it refers to so-called internalized homophobia, our tendency to accept the mainstream culture's disapproval of sex in general and homosexuality in particular and then to judge ourselves badly and repress our sexual feelings into unconsciousness so that we experience them as compulsions and uncontrollable urges. Such negative self-judgment results in depression and rigidity.