Biblical problems with gay marriage?

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

..since I believe homosexuality is a sin..

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

[Dash]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I'm not going to get in a big old debate with you guys, however, it is standard doctrine that kosher laws no longer exist. Its written in scripture: Acts 10:9-16.

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Acts 10:9-16, which was referenced above. The story continues...

While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"

The dream is interpreted. Has nothing to do with Kosher Laws.

Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Many here are filled with the Spirit. It manifests itself again and again in glorious displays of wisdom and love.

May none of you ever doubt that we are acceptable to the Divine heart, for if the Spirit has found us acceptable, who will keep us out?

This story is an important lesson for both those who oppose queer folk and those who believe the Bible is inerrant. Nothing is inerrant that changes itself.

[ladyinred]

"Nothing is inerrant that changes itself. " Hmmmmmm words to ponder ,nothing is inerrant that changes itself.

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

So, I see that I've got a lot of responses to look at.

Ladyinred, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't help each other with our sins. You seem to be saying that having accountability for our sins is basically illogical, because the person who will be keeping us in check is only judging us.

If a buddy of mine says that he is a Christian but is also a fornicator, I am going to go point out his sin to him. Is that judging? Is it wrong of me to worry about the spiritual health of my friend? No, actually it is biblical that we take care of each other not only physically but spiritually as well.

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.



P.S.

Boy does typing on a forum take patience heh, I wish I could talk instead.

AL,

I think most people today, at least in the Christian community, have taken this admonition a little too seriously. I believe if that buddy of yours was fornicating, you need to gently take him/her aside and talk with them, NOT POINT FINGERS, and pray for them. There but for the grace of God, it might have been or is YOU. Beyond gentle admonition and lots of introspective prayer, it is NOT YOUR BUSINESS. You are NOT the HOLY SPIRIT and last time I checked, IT WASN'T YOU WHO DIED FOR MY SINS!

We should care for one another spiritually but only in the vein that we are all on a journey and where I am spiritually may not be where you are, so it is not my place to judge your spirituality and vice versa. The Bible tells us to build each other up, not tear down. The Bible tells us to speak to each other with love, and grace. Not condemnation or judgment. Love casts out fear. The Bible is a book of LIFE, not Death. When you set out to "witness" to us here at Soulforce, you speak DEATH to us, because your message is contentious and divisive and it seems that all you want to do is stir up trouble, and believe me, we have had enough of that in our lives.

I wish for one day you could live as most of us do. I wish for one day, you didn't have the right to marry your spouse. I wish for one day you had to wait in the waiting room while the one you love is being operated on, but because you are not family, no one talks to you about anything. I wish for one day that you could be run out of your church because you are gay. I wish for one day, that you can't put your spouse on your insurance, or file "married" on your taxes and get that huge tax benefit. I wish for one day someone would paint in ugly colors all over your car, "FAG", or beat you up because you are gay, or they suspect you are. I wish for one day, your father and mother refuse to talk to you and disinherit you, or you are denied access to your own children because you're gay. I wish for one day you could live like we do and maybe your perspective would change.This my friend is our life as gay and lesbian Christians. But you have no idea what that is all about, because you live a privileged straight existence and will never know what any of that is like.

Get your finger out of my face and look at your own heart. If you want to witness to us, witness Christ's unbounding love, grace and mercy as he died as every gay man, every lesbian, every straight person when he was crucified. Witness to us faithfulness, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control and peace. Please don't speak into our lives DEATH and DESTRUCTION. So much of our lives have already had enough of that spoken into it.

We welcome lively discussion and even disagreement, that is the spice of life. We will not let anyone, however, brow beat, judge, or speak libelous of us or malign who we are.

[fredyboy]

(this is alakazoom)

Yeah, Keltic impolitely interrupted our conversation and banned me. For saying this:

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.

He has been looking for a reason to ban me and so, when I finally said my beliefs on homosexuality he pounced on me like a tigger... However, I'll probably be banned for making closing comments. Two things:

ladyinred:

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

emproph:

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.


Love you all, go ahead and ban me keltic for expressing my "oppressive" views.

[u-dog]

Yeah Keltic! Go ahead and ban him. I call dibs on a front row seat on Judgement day so I can watch him squirm with guilt and contrition when he finally understands what he and those like him have been doing to God's glbt children.

Of course I know that God will forgive him, wrapped as he will be in the righteousness of Christ, but I just wanna be there when the whole truth is opened before him.

Of course I'll have to stand there and squirm for WANTING to see him squirm, but it will be worth it.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by fredyboy

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

If this is your version of compassion and Christian love, you have a long way to go.

You don't understand gay people because you are busy judging them, and perhaps, even yourself.

You think your message that I and my husband of 15 years are detestable is a 'good work'? Sorry. Doesn't feel good to me.

You views are oppressive and misguided if only from a lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture itself. Maybe you will come to see this in this lifetime.

Love will find a way.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by fredyboy

(this is alakazoom)

Yeah, Keltic impolitely interrupted our conversation and banned me. For saying this:

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.

He has been looking for a reason to ban me and so, when I finally said my beliefs on homosexuality he pounced on me like a tigger... However, I'll probably be banned for making closing comments. Two things:

ladyinred:

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

emproph:

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.


Love you all, go ahead and ban me keltic for expressing my "oppressive" views.

Banned again.

and let me take a moment to point OUT a few things here.

• keltic is merely the moderator, the Principal, if you will. I make sure that our members play nice and follow the rules.
• the Rules, are what you agreed to abide by when you joined this site. Either you didn't understand them, alakazoom/fredy, or you chose to ignore them. Obviously, your word means nothing. I think we've seen this before in other fundamentalist christians in which it's determined that it's ethical to lie in order to accomplish the fundamentalist agenda.
• homophobia is an interesting thing. internalized homophobia is far more interesting! It can cause some people to return to their gay and lesbian friends, because they identify with them, yet that identification with them turns to hatred because they cannot stand to see their own reflection.
• the truth, alakazoom/fredy/matthew, is that many of the members who have engaged you in dialogue have also pm'd me to request that you be banned. I explained that you would only be banned when and if you violated the guidelines, which you have done now, at least twice.
• I hope the best for you zoom! when you need help because someone discovers your secret, I hope you're able to find a group like ours to give you some support.

[u-dog]

If Steve is right and you have a secret and you get ready to deal with it ... come back here. Most of us understand the way that homophobia and oppression twist and deform our character and will be quick to forgive

[Zerbie]

Guys,
'Zoom, etc. - - *IF* Keltic is correct in the surmise that you may be struggling with your own sexuality, and if someday you ever do want to reach out and explore self-acceptance, come back, we'll be here.

With all due respect though, guys, do you think we might be jumping to conclusions that 'zoom is gay?

Ducking out, now.

[pnggrad79]

Keltic, I will defend you! Zoom apparently just became a member to express his oppressive, prejudiced, narrow minded views, and to hurt yet another gay person. Thank you for banning him! We have no need of any more hurt, death and destruction in this forum! Enough, off with you, Zoom. Be gone, and your little dog, too!

Another fundy back to the boiling pot to see what other trouble he can brew! I hope one day it all comes back to you, buddy. I hope someone you love dearly turns out to be gay, and then you'll know the hurt you have dispensed in the name of Jesus to us.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by Dash

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Acts 10:9-16, which was referenced above. The story continues...

While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"

The dream is interpreted. Has nothing to do with Kosher Laws.

Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Many here are filled with the Spirit. It manifests itself again and again in glorious displays of wisdom and love.

May none of you ever doubt that we are acceptable to the Divine heart, for if the Spirit has found us acceptable, who will keep us out?

This story is an important lesson for both those who oppose queer folk and those who believe the Bible is inerrant. Nothing is inerrant that changes itself.

Preach it Dash! This would be a good time to pass the plate ... I know I'd dig deep after that sermon!

[ladyinred]

ladyinred:

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

emproph:

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.


After reading Dash's response on the bible,I agree nothing inerrant changes. The laws of the old testament were tribal and pertained to the Hebrew people and their viewpoints of the outside world which they were often in conflict with, they were also clannish as Dash pointed out in their rejection of Gentiles as "Unclean" or as unfavored by God.

Then God suddenly appears to Peter to accept the Gentiles and not to see them as unclean because that is not God's will.This alone points out that their old rules and customs apparently were considered wrong by God .(So apparently even the Apostles could be proven wrong in their ideas and beliefs)
Even though in the old testament they were supposedly told by God not to associate with the heathen and even to kill them, the Hebrews in those days firmly believed that anyone else outside their own little group was heathen, they would not even marry them, because they were not God's chosen,like they the Hebrews were.

So we now see that verses in the old testament banning other nations and tribes (gentiles) were apparently erroneous, they got it wrong.

. I don't think people here are asking you to point out the "error" of their way or to save them. I often think people who think that they can act like God often have ulterior motives. This forum is not for proselytizing here for people to browbeat gay people and "convict" them of the errors of their ways.

This is a forum of support for LGBT people who have been ostracized often by their church and families and those who firmly believe that LGBT people are not sinful by nature.


You talk about being banned, now the shoe is on the other foot because many times when SoulForce tries to dialogue with churches or religious leaders they are automatically banned from the table of discussion. So they reserve the right to do the same if they feel someones language or posture is offensive to them.At least they allowed you on this forum to discuss things, but they also reserve the right to disagree with you and your position on the bible.

You may have a right to your own views but what Soul Force is saying is don't IMPOSE them on people here.You are already convinced that LGBT people are guilty and sinful by default, so you are trying to use guilt to browbeat them.Do not say you aren't because you are using the bible exactly for that end. You have just by your own admission of the above words said homosexual people are detestable and sinful, this very much mirrors your view of LGBT people. I will say again people here do not want your advice on how they need to be saved.LEAVE THEM ALONE.That is between their soul's and God

You claim to speak for the bible but do you actually know the perspectives of the authors when they spoke against something, do you know any thing about past civilizations or their traditions or tribal mentality? You can only interpret at best guess what they were saying from only your own point of view. Do you claim to speak for God then? On what basis? Have you heard his voice speak through you?
Do you claim to know the perspective by which the scripture speaks? There was no word for homosexuality until the 19th century. Biblical translations are ambigious at best. And even the bible itself as mentioned about Peter above and in Dash's post, prove the apostles could be wrong in their outlook of things.

Read:
A word about taking the bible literally, it is impossible for two reasons. First, the English translations preachers claim to be the literal word of God, are not always true to the original language of the Bible, Hebrew. All translations are really interpretations, and there are over 400 biblical words known as hapax legomena, whose English translation we don't know. The English you read is a best guess. The second reason why biblical literalism is impossible is because no one takes the entire bible literally. Serpent handling Pentecostal Christians in Appalachia come closest to following the words of Jesus literally in Mark 16. Perhaps you are aware of people who advocate self-mutilation in obedience to Jesus’ words in Mark 9. I'm not. And if we were to execute children who insult their parents as is written in Deuteronomy 21, we’d all be dead.

--Rabbi Micah Greenstein
from the sermon "Religion Without Humor Is Blasphemy"

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by fredyboy

Yeah, Keltic impolitely interrupted our conversation and banned me.

How rude, Keltic! How could you be impolite to such a kind and gentle soul, and just when we were enjoying our "conversation" with him so much.

He has been looking for a reason to ban me and so, when I finally said my beliefs on homosexuality he pounced on me like a tigger...

You are a vicious tigger, Steve. That's T - I- Double Guh- ER. A.A. Milne is not for the faint of heart.

Love you all, go ahead and ban me keltic for expressing my "oppressive" views.

"Love you all, you detestable abominations!"

Sigh, I think I'll miss him. Well, maybe. I'll try to. Nope, no good, I'm already over it.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I'm not going to get in a big old debate with you guys, however, it is standard doctrine that kosher laws no longer exist. Its written in scripture: Acts 10:9-16.

Kosher meats may be in the Bible, but how about usery? (The loaning of money and demanding repayment with interest involved) I believe that was never written out of the Bible anywhere. I guess every savings and loan, bank and credit card company should be stoned also!

Also, a question, did not Jesus come to tell us how we were suppost to live? Did he not say those ways are the old ways? He changed several things from the old testament. He NEVER had one thing to say about homosexuality and also I believe even in the lod testament it says that " a man shall not lie down with a man like a woman", no where does it say that women should not lie down with women! Does that mean only that gay males are sinners? LOL It sure pays to be a lesbian!

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

Do you honestly believe that any Christian that believes homosexuality is a bigot/hypocrite? Basically, you are putting all Christians who don't believe on your views of what sexual immorality is in one category, and that by default is wrong.

Your argument seems to say: right Christians shouldn't have any concern for homosexual Christians because right Christians are all having premarital sex, all right Christians are divorced, and all right Christians are hypocrites. Do you see how unfair this is? The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality.

Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians.

*prepares to be hated and yelled at by soulforce forum although alakazoom87 has not stated his own beliefs on the matter*

The only thing I can say to prove homosexuality is NOT the sin many Christains and other religions are making it out to be is the fact that they believe God is all knowing and can do anything. Did not God destroy Soddom and Gomorra?(propbaly spelled wrong)This was done because of all the sin (many seem to think that is was because of homosexuals) Well, if homoseuxal sex really offended the All Mighty THAT much, he would proceed to destroy all homosexuals much in the same manner of that fatefull city. Now, I dont want to hear about freewill and such becuase the only people who got to exercise freewill were the couple who left the city and his wife looked back and turned to a pillar! It is obvious that some may say that HIV is the "gay desease" and that is Gods way, well then why are heteros geting it? and children? and why do we have protease inhibitors that help people stricken with it to live full lives and longer lives? Certainly if he has passed his judgement on our sin then we would be able to do nothing to stop the rampage. When someone gives a sound and valid reason to as why homosexual sex is a sin, other than a book, then I will believe it.

[ladyinred]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Also, a question, did not Jesus come to tell us how we were suppost to live? Did he not say those ways are the old ways? He changed several things from the old testament. He NEVER had one thing to say about homosexuality .
lol:

Here again you are correct ,Jesus broke the sabbath rules ,even though it in the old testament expressly states those who work on the sabbath shall be put to death, they were not even allowed to light fires in their own homes.( He was often criticized for teaching and healing on the sabbath and for he and the disciples harvesting grain on the sabbath to eat which was considered work by the pharisees,of course according to the bible you cannot even gather sticks on the sabbath in the old testament)

In the old testament ,It says God commanded an eye for an eye ,a tooth for a tooth,Jesus said ye had heard in the days of old where it is written an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you ,Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you..
If these were apparent mandates given by God why did Jesus change them ,wouldn't that have been against God and his commands? Apparently there was something wrong with the old system in the first place and why Christ came was to correct the erroneous notions people had about God .It also shows(To me PROVES) that the bible is not the inerrant and infallible word of God because Jesus contradicted the old testament mandates and rules many times.(Not fasting for one,associating with the "heathen" for another, and many others)

Personally I haven't seen anything in the bible where it claims it is infallible or inerrant. Have any of you all read that statement or claim in the bible, I haven't.

[ladyinred]

tymejumper, it is silly to believe that God's wrath is on homosexuals by punnishing them with aids. Look at Africa with the 12 million + children being orphaned because of the aids epidemic, do you honestly think God would punnish children by making them orphaned and left to fend on their own with no parents and to roam the streets without a home.Does that sound fair? Does that sound like what a loving merciful God would do? Do you think children should have to suffer because of parents mistakes.If people believe that aids has anything to do with God's wrath, he must be pretty cruel to take it out on innocent children who have no control over their parents behavior.

[ladyinred]

My question is why these people have an obsessive focus on homosexuality. What is behind that?

[ladyinred]

"Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians."Alakazoom

First your words are an assault on many here implying that they aren't Christians, when many here are of the Christian faith, since your sins don't nullify your claim to be a Christian , neither does the so-called sin of homosexuality nullify the fact that they are Believers in God and Christ.

You seem focused on the "sin" of homosexuality while those who divorced and go to church are still considered Christians even though the bible and Jesus spoke against it, how is it you use certain sins to exclude certain people then? Ever had premarital sex?
The bible admantly speaks against it ( I was reading where the vast majority of people here in the US are not virgins and it is said a very small minority actually are, so according to the bible they are not "Christians?")are you excluded from the church because of that by the way?

And if you literally believe the bible as unerring and infallible,those who commit fornication and adultery( Jesus also said a man who divorces his wife,save for fornication, and marries another commits adultery and causes the woman to if she remarries) will not inherit the kingdom of God,(1 Cor 6:9 the same one you use to condemn homosexuals)that will exclude a hell of alot of people then so evidently they cannot (according to your infallible , unerring biblical worldview) be considered Christians by virtue of "sin" either. How is it you overlook certain "sins" as acceptable in the eyes of God where others aren't and then excommunicate homosexuals from your churches? What is the rationale for that by the way?

By the way there is no way to undo divorce and fornicating once you've done them, even if you divorced your current partner and remarried your former, you still again have comitted the "sin" of divorce. So since you literally believe the bible as God's inerrant and infallible word why is it that you and other straight people don't abide by it's commands and justify overlooking certain "sins" over others? It's all convoluted to me. And apparently nullifies God's mercy and grace . You apparently don't follow the bible tit for tat or literally in many ways, why then do you expect gay people to?
Also the words in 1Corinthians 6:9 were not even said by Jesus but Paul. Jesus never said people would be outcasted from the kingdom because of their actions,he just didn't agree with them. But also stated that the kingdom of heaven was within and for people to fear not for it was the father's good pleasure to bring the kingdom unto them.

From my view the bible is pretty much a controversial mess, which is why I study alternative forms of Christianity like the course in miracles and progressive thinking on Christianity that feels the bible is just incomplete in it's answers and that there is room for improvement and evolution in our understanding of God and Christianity.I also take inspiration from buddhism and other religions. Because there is so much confusion around morality and religion, there is something that I do take literally from the bible,"God is not the author of confusion but of PEACE." So to me anything that does not promote the wellbeing of a person or persons or peace of mind is off kilter or off balance. I also feel the way to God is an individual matter as he speaks to our hearts, from the Course's standpoint you can only find the truth within you.