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#1
06-24-2007, 11:10 PM
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inner conflict
You know, I have been struggling for a long time since I came out to myself and my family two years ago. I was dealing with it quite well, but then two things happened recently that shattered any progress I made.
The first was that I accidentally came across some articles by Dr. Robert Gagnon, thinking it might be something that would make me feel better. Well, unfortunately it did quite the opposite! It turns out he makes some very convincing arguments in favor of the traditional definition of human sexuality. You see, the problem is that I've read a lot of pro-gay and anti-gay interpretations of the Bible and both arguments seem 100% valid to me! So I'm pretty much split in two. So that leads to question #1, is there any biblical rebuttals to Dr. Gagnon's literature? I apologize if I asked this before. It's been a while since I've been on here! Second, I make no secret of the fact that I don't like who I am because I don't know if my salvation is assured. Not knowing where I'll end up when I face God is so hard to deal with. I know God loves me, but what good is God's love if I end up going to hell? Third, I lost 3 friends recently when they found out about me and couldn't deal with it. The worst part was that they told me to my face that they had no problem with it but then proceeded to exclude me from all gatherings and break off contact with me. Needless to say, I quickly deleted them from my AIM contacts! Fourth, I was hit with 2 anti-gay arguments that I can't find a way to rebut. One is that of sexual complementarity (i.e. the "parts don't line up") and that of "simply because someone is attracted or oriented to do something doesn't mean they should do it (the Catholic Church uses this argument)." All of this is contributing to making me deeply conflicted. I feel like I am in the middle of an internal civil war! 
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#2
06-25-2007, 01:03 AM
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Live a life none can condem, Walk with God hand in hand, None can harm you nor hurt you then, Take off your mask, and open your heart Walk the walk, and play your part.
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#3
06-25-2007, 04:55 AM
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Feels good!
LOve-making feels good! If two (or more) People make love and feel wonderful, sharing orgasm and emotional passion then it was meant to be be design! No further explanation should be required. 
__________________
Love and affirmation,  Forrester Tongpa Nyi (formerly Ash Phoenix, faeries evolve! )  When you come to know that your entitlement to joy is a given, All that remains is the exploration of the many different ways to let it in 
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#4
06-25-2007, 07:13 AM
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Gman,
I know that everyone has to come to terms with their own sexuality. For some it is easier; for others of us it is harder. If I could just offer some thoughts. First of all. As the Bible says in Romans, "There is nothing that can separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I believe in the grace of God. Jesus has totally wiped away our sinfulness. It is nothing that we have done. Also there is nothing that we can do that will remove that forgiveness from us. We can DO nothing that sends us to hell, for our salvation is not based on what we do but on what Christ has done for us. Also as I read the Bible, I see it is the motive that counts. To serve God and live sanctified lives we need to love God and those around us. God does not keep a logbook of broken rules. He wants us to love out of the depths of our heart. I urge you to ask yourself if you think that you are gay because of evil motives? I can only speak for myself, but there is nothing evil about being gay. I have no evil intention; it is the way I am. I can use it to do good or evil; that is my choice, but being gay is God's choice for me and there is no evil in that. I feel pretty certain that deep in your heart you know that being gay is not evil nor is it your choice; don't let others pull you away from God's love for you. As for the "parts don't match" argument. That is a red herring. People who use that are grasping at straws. It has nothing to do with the issue. If relationships were only about sex and procreation, it might have some bearing. Relationships are not just about those two things. Some people God has chosen for heterosexual unions and families; others he has not. People who use this argument are fostering that idea that gay relationships are all about sex; I think sex is only one part of many in relationships. (And just who is it that evaluates if the parts fit or not? It seems many gay couples find the "fitting" work out just fine.) My advice from personal experience: Don't struggle with it. Go to God in prayer; read His Word and ask Him to lead you in the direction that he wants you to go. Listen to what he has to say. Don't let others tell you how God wants you to live. I spent far to much of my life telling God what he should do in my life. I spent a lot of time struggling. I am convinced that I was fighting against God and His plan for me. Peace only came after I asked Him to do what he wanted. For me that was acceptance of my sexuality. What God wants for you I cannot say. That is something you and God will work out together in your life. Now after all this, I have to say. I am not familiar with the person that you mentioned so I can't give any insight in his arguments. I do know that there a a few standard arguments used against homosexuality. I don't think any of them stand up when given a close look. Tu Amigo, Pablo
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For I am convinced that neither life nor death...neither the present nor the future nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39 Last edited by Pablo Rafael; 06-25-2007 at 07:16 AM. Reason: typos
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#5
06-25-2007, 08:12 AM
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As someone who struggled with the "morality" of homosexuality for years and just finally came to peace with it a few weeks ago, I can tell you some of my personal struggles and their resolutions and see if that helps you at all. I don't know this doctor person so I can't rebut his/her arguments at all, but remember, just 'cause they've got a doctorate doesn't mean they're smart.
I will warn you... I get kind of graphic in my clinical explanations sometimes, so if you're squeamish, you might wanna skip the "physiology" section.  1) The Biblical Interpretation Argument. As you say, both camps have their interpretation and both camps sound utterly convincing if they have someone who knows their rhetoric well enough. Rhetoric is a confusing thing, especially if someone knows how to debate and twist facts. For example, a cousin of mine is skilled in persuasion and debate (he studied it in college, I believe) and once decided to see if he could convincingly argue a theory he knew to be fallable - ie, he set out to convince someone that the world was really flat. And you know what? He had better arguments than the other person, and ended up winning the debate. All that to say, things get REALLY confusing when you're depending on other people to make your arguments for you. That's not to say we don't need other people's help. I can't read Greek or Hebrew, so I need someone who does to tell me what the words mean. However, I know from reading translations of other languages (some of which I know, some of which I only bumble through) that translation is an art. That's what makes basing your life on something like that kinda scary, really. Take into account that the two main verses used to condemn homosexuality are a) vague, b) contextual, and c) surrounded by many other verses that condemn things that were specific to a culture and no longer adhered to by modern churches (dress codes, the way a woman should wear her hair, dietary restrictions, etc.). In many cases, the most confusing of biblical verses are confusing precisely because they were written by a specific person as specific advice to a specific group of people in a specific situation... none of which necessarily apply to modern life. In fact, many things that are morally condemned by the present church are never morally condemned in the Bible. Polygamy and incest, for example, are actually supported in scripture. Knowing that God is Love, and knowing that he's been known to break his own "rules" in order to do what he really wants to do (see several examples in the Old Testament prophets when he told them to do something that broke the Law, and the prophets would protest that it was against the Law and God's basic rebuttal was, "I AM the Law, and I said so.") I am not particularly inclined to cling to a literalistic, legalistic interpretation of scripture. I think the most important thing is to do what Jesus said: Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. What I see in the Bible tends to point to only one precept for life: Live as peacefully as you can in the culture you live in without compromising yourself, be responsible with your actions, and don't hurt anyone else if you can help it. 2. The Physiology Argument This was one of my biggest conundrums. People everywhere insisted that sex between a man and a man was inappropriate because the only option for penetration was anal sex. This... never set well with me. For one thing, sex is about so much more than penetration. It's communication between two people who love each other, whatever form that takes. Plus, my argument was always this: The prostate gland serves no other purpose than a pleasure organ. I researched this in an attempt to confirm that because I believe that everything God did was practical, that he created everything for some useful purpose, whether as a survival function or just because it was pleasurable. (Find me another use for the clitoris than pleasure, for example.) So when no one could tell me anything else the prostate gland was good for (other than occasionally attracting cancer), the whole physiology thing just didn't stand up for me. Some people argue that the anus is only supposed to be used to expel waste, and as such is "exit only." The chance for injury and infection seems to add to their argument. This... this is the biggest head-in-the-sand argument I have ever heard. The vagina is used to expel waste. Menstruation, anyone? This doesn't stop heterosexual couples from penetrating it. And the chance for infection and injury? Just as large in vaginal sex as in anal. In fact, bladder infections are extremely common in women (and not so much in men) because excessive vaginal stimulation is one of the primary causes. The physiology argument holds no water. The Procreation Argument This was my mother's favorite. We talked about it often. I asked her why on earth God would forbid a loving homosexual relationship when he always has a reason for what he does. Her response was, "The only thing I can see would be that there's no chance for procreation." My response was always a baffled, "But what about barren women, then? What about people who are single all their lives? What about people who are infertile or sterile? Is it a sin to have sex with someone who is physically incapable of procreating? Is it a sin to never have sex at all?" She never could find an answer to that. (To clarify, my mother has never tried to beat me over the head with anything. We have open dialogue about every issue under the sun.) The problem of procreation is solved for me in Matthew 19. The scene opens with the Pharisees (Saducees?) trying to trap Jesus in fallacy (again). They start badgering him about the role divorce and remarriage would play in the resurrection, and he lays into them about their whimsical, irresponsible views of marriage and divorce. They respond with, "Well then, if it's this much trouble, maybe it would be better if no one got married?" Being that a basic tenet of the culture of the day was that you HAD to get married and have babies (I believe it may have been a legalistic tenet of the Law, as well, since the Pharisees were required, as a religious order, to be married), they fully expected Jesus to back off and say, "No, no, it's better to be divorced and remarried than never married at all." Jesus's response went something like this (this is me paraphrasing from memory, so bear with me), "Look, there are some people who will never need to hear this, but some who will, so I'm saying it for them: Some men are born incapable of sex with a woman. Some are made eunuchs by other men. Some choose celibacy for the sake of the kingdom. All these have their place." His message? Procreation isn't the be-all end-all of human relationships. There are many reasons some people will never have children, and that's okay. I don't know if any of this helps you at all, but we all have to struggle to align our beliefs sometime, and I wish you well in your journey to uncover the truth.
__________________
"I have this terribly archaic notion that art should be about beauty... and passion... and, well, redefining an imperfect world in a perfect way." -- Still Breathing Last edited by mjules; 06-25-2007 at 08:13 AM. Reason: I can't spell. :p
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#6
06-25-2007, 09:19 AM
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#7
06-25-2007, 12:17 PM
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I think you should continue to try to keep in touch with them even though you're hurt by their reaction. It may be difficult, but if you don't, then they might think that you are ashamed of who you are which will only confirm their thoughts that being gay is shameful. Rick
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#8
06-25-2007, 03:39 PM
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Take a deep breath. Don't expect to have it all worked out instantly. Took me a solid 36 years. Some are much brighter than me, and get it quicker. But breathe. Child of God, know that you are loved beyond your wildest imaginings, just as you are.
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Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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#9
06-25-2007, 11:01 PM
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Great post mjules!
That said, for me the matter isn't so much about physiology or biblical matters, those these things are very important.
What these questioners ignore is one big element: LOVE. Gay people are drawn towards one another out of love. In the end, it's not about how the parts work or what the bible does or doesn't say (no offense the good book). Love doesn't need a reason. And looking for approval for one's existence is tantamount to having it denied. I guess I'm getting pretty staunch about this. But after living half my life afraid of what other people think, I'm learning that their fear is their problem. I'm happy to talk to them about it, but in the end, they have to do the work of discovering the answers to their questions. We needn't always be the one's to do their work for them.
__________________
Be the love you seek.
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#10
06-25-2007, 11:29 PM
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Hi, gman,
I will respectfully dissent with my colleagues in this forum by stating that I doubt that Gagnon's arguments are based in hatred, in as much as I wouldn't assume that his arguments are the result of hating gay people. That, to me, wouldn't be a good reason to dismiss his argument unless you know of specific instances in which gagnon has spread false stereotypes, used derogatory language towards gay people, etc. Nevertheless, this is something for you and God to talk over, not you and Gagnan. . I'd encourage you to think: when you talk to God, do you feel Him telling you that your sexual orientation is wrong? What does your heart say?Also, sometimes people go through periods of feeling uncomfortable with their sexuality or questioning their orientation...although you seem certain about your orientation. If not, than that's normal: people go through periods of questioning and phases. But, assuming that you are certain that you are gay, than that leads back to my former point: God gave us the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit to guide us, so sometimes its better just to be still, and pray, without trying to find out the answer to the question: just be in the moment and appreciate God's love for you and the world around you. Now, as to your friends, I truly feel for you. Please don't take that into account when dealing with your sexuality. Whatever you are, true friends will love and honor you for yourself. I know how heartbreaking it is when friends, who say that they are "there" for you, turn out to be shallow. I've reccomended this on other places on the forum, but a great book that deals with God's love is Julian of Norwhich-Revelations of Divine Love. Julian was a fourteenth century mystic who had visions of the Passion. Another great book that I would reccommend is Glimpses of Grace, a day by day devotional book compiled of Madeliene L'Engle's writings. This is a great book when dealing with tough issues. Another book by L'Engle that deals with the subject of being Christian and gay is "A House Like a Lotus," which also deals with the prejudice often encountered by such individuals. And, I want to affirm what others have said here: GOD LOVES YOU NO MATTER WHAT. You can be 100 percent certain of that. If possible, I encourage you too seek out a mentor a few years older than you who can serve as an ear for you, a safe person to offer support in a nurturing environment. That can really be helpful when dealing with all of these questions regarding theology, sexuality, and personal issues. These are all complex issues that can understandable be overwelming, and it is helpful to have someone who can help you process it in a face to face setting. God will guide you in your ways, and will show you his will for your life, your relationships, your feelings, etc. I'll be praying for you: hang in there.
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#11
06-26-2007, 07:18 AM
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Friends,
I agree with the sentiment just expressed that Gagnon should not be dismissed as simply a hater. But I do think the man is obsessed with this issue. I have read his major book and many of his articles. I was involved in a local Soulforce action where we managed to prevent him from appearing at a forum at the Universty of Wisconsin. Gagnon's mission in life seems to be to turn the scholarly world and the mainline denominations against LGBT persons. He's not doing a very good job of it, by the way. I've asked myself why this man devotes so much energy and intensity on this one issue? He's very very combative--getting into big "scholarly" "cat fights" over the issue with other scholars. My conclusion is that he's a self-hating closet gay. He's so caught up in his intellectual arguments (and his false sense of intellectual superiority) that he cannot deal with his own condition. I agree with the Soulforce teaching that Gagnon is acting out of a kind of ignorance rather than hatred--but, you know, there is something hateful about him--even if it is *only* self-hatred. His major book on the subject was titled The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics. On the surface it seems very scholarly--the guy really knows his field very well. His field is New Testament studies. One of his very glaring faults is the frequency with which he quotes works on medicene/science/psychology by "Dr." Paul Cameron. Paul Cameron is a real nut-job! He's been thrown out of the American Psychological Association and the American Sociological Association for his unethical abuse of research to "prove" that homosexuals are not only "sick," but dangerous. If Cameron had his way, we'd all be in jail or worse! If Gagnon were smarter, he wouldn't go beyond his own field of expertise, which is not science, but the New Testament--he kind of makes a fool of himself by quoting bad science. He mkes some stupid statistical arguments as well. He's no statistician either. He argues that since lesbians are more likely to be college-educated than non college educated women, that education must turn women into lesbians--he blames Women's Studies courses! The simplest critique of his biblical interpretation is that it relies almost entirely on the idea of the supposed "complementarity of the sexes." It's the same "plumbing argument" we're hearing from Bush's nominee for Surgeon General, James Holsinger. It is a "heterosexist" argument--based on nothing more than a set of prejudices that argue that heterosexuality is more "natural" and "fits". I can testify after 25 years of married life with my same-sex partner/spouse that everything "fits" quite nicely! As has been pointed out here elsewhere, the really insulting thing about the plumbing argument is how inhuman it really is. There is no recognition of the human element of love, emotion, loyalty etc. If Gagnon thinks his own marriage works simply because the plumbing is right, that tells you alot about the man right there! Gagnon's major book has been out now since about the year 2000. He seemed to think his arguments would turn around the whole scholarly community, but actually, I think he's had very little real impact among Biblical scholars. Evangelicals (of the more Fundamentalist type) like to point to Gagnon as their "expert" when it comes to Biblical schoarship--but at the same time they don't agree with his scholarship because it does rely on modern, mainstream theories of textual sources that fundmentalists reject. So Gagnon is really pretty alone--he has no big following among Biblical scholars, and his fundamentalist friends don't really appreciate his scholarship, they just appreciate that he's written a big, heavy book that they can beat their opponents over the head with--the same way they mis-use the Bible. Steven Webster
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#12
06-26-2007, 08:22 AM
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Cameron is a nut job because there is no science to his research, he made up his mind about homosexuals a long time ago, there is nothing objective in his research. He uses his research to support his view of homosexuality that is all."Feces eating"? I don't eat feces, nor would I want to.Yeeeeeeek. Just changing a diaper at times would make me gag(the smell,LOL)
If you as a scientist want to know things about something it would seem to me you would put aside your personal prejudices to learn more, that doesn't seem to be the case with Cameron. He has even written in his research "Most serial killers are gays" . I actually read where most serial killers come from really strict religious upbringings. You might want to review my posts on the comparison of the right's anti gay rhetoric and compare with the ant-jewish rhetoric of the Nazis, they even had films and propaganda that supported their views. Ever read the diary of Ann frank? She didn't fit into their propaganda of the "evil jew." If Paul Cameron wasn't so vicious it would be different but on that alone his credibility ought to be questioned. He has even recommended the extermination of gay people.Does that sound like objective research? Does that sound like sound psychology? Or someone that might have a few screws loose himself and need help? Last edited by ladyinred; 06-26-2007 at 08:42 AM.
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#13
06-26-2007, 08:44 AM
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Here is something interesting:http://www.counterbias.com/730.html
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#15
06-26-2007, 11:49 AM
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(((((((( Gman )))))))))
I believe those who have posted already covered the "argument" points pretty well. Sorry I did not see your note sooner. I want very much to offer you some hugs. This is really really big stuff. The biggest. I understand the gravity of your concern. Take it to God. Pray. Meditate. Let God speak to your heart. God loves you infinitely and without condition. Let him comfort you. And take your time with this. It can take a lot of time to develop the trust that God really loves us and embraces us no matter what. I promise you that love is there. Go re-read the wonderful messages you've already received, especially ones from Pablo and Udog, since I believe they speak especially well to where you are right now. You are safe. You are loved. Infinitely. And no matter who you are or what you feel, that remains true.
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#16
06-27-2007, 12:52 PM
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Hey everyone,
I just took a few minutes to read this thread in its entirety, and the more I think about what is being said the more I realize what does and doesn't matter right now. Gman, I'm in the same place you are right now. Questioning my sexuality, wondering if it's scripturally sound, and moral to be gay/lesbian, and if God is going to be there for me when I am finally ready to join him. To be honest, I've even lost sleep over the issue. But what I am beginning to realize is that God loves me for who I am. One of my biggest problems with being lesbian is that my parents are conservative ministers (ordained nondenominational) and have very strong, unmoving beliefs about being gay and the immorality that goes along with it. It's been hard. But, between myself, this amazing community, and my best friends I'm starting to realize what really matters: love. Jesus said that LOVE is the most important thing to us. He never defined what love meant, because it takes so many vast forms. Love between a man and wife, between friends, siblings, love for people you don't even know... and Jesus never said that any of these types of love are wrong. I tell my best friend that I love him, I tell my mother the same... does God define this love differently? In God's eyes, is the love i have for my mother different from the love i have for my best friend? I believe it is man, not God, who defines what forms love can take what makes one kind of love wrong when another is sound and good. I've been with my friends through their times of questioning, and now they are with me through mine. What I am coming to see from everything I have found and lived is that God is something vastly different to us all. The God that you know is different from the God I know. The God I know is different from the God my mom and dad know.. and who can say which is right? My mom, in her attempt to gay bash.. made two distinctly pro-gay points: 1) If we love God and have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior then we are going to Heaven. Period. There is no astric next to that statement that if you follow to the bottom of the page says "unless you are gay/lesbian/bi or of other sexual orientation" If we accept Jesus and love God we go to Heaven. 2) Something is a sin if we decide it is. Obviously, the 10 Commandments still hold true. Murder = bad, Lying = bad, Worship of false gods/idols = bad. But beyond that sins are what we make them. Some Christians (Baptists and Methodists among others) believe that drinking is a sin. Others, see it like this: Jesus drank. Paul said "wine doth the belly good." All through the Bible they drank alcohol. Drunkenness was condemned... but not a glass of wine with dinner. In this case, alcohol consumption is a sin if you make it one. Now, in my mind... the Bible addresses homosexuality in the same manner... vaguely at best. So, I'm beginning to take the same stand with homosexuality... it's a sin if we make it one. I hope this helped, peace and God bless, -Tink
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#17
06-27-2007, 01:07 PM
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Sweetie, do you realize how close you come the the self empowering affirmation of deriving your spirituality from your inner being! As opposed to other than your inner being.  I love it! this is the essential substance of nature-based spirituality (paganism).  You might look at your feet one morning and see hooves in their place! 
__________________
Love and affirmation, Forrester Tongpa Nyi (formerly Ash Phoenix, faeries evolve! ) When you come to know that your entitlement to joy is a given, All that remains is the exploration of the many different ways to let it in
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#18
06-27-2007, 01:20 PM
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Relax Tink!
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Don't worry, Tink, whenever he gets like this we just make a cross with our two index fingers and use it to cast a shadow over him. He cries out and shrinks back with his forearm covering his face. Then he behaves for awhile. just kiddin Scott! We Christians love you from the tips of your horns to the bottoms of your hooves!
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#19
06-27-2007, 01:27 PM
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Oooooooo, can I pet him???? 
__________________
DraneSpout.com
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