c.a.r.m.

[awediot]

As some of you know, I used to post here quite a bit. Why that changed and is now changing back has many reasons and I hope to discuss some of them in the near future...

For now, one of the main reasons was CARM, or Christian Apologatic and Resourse Ministry; an online, non-profit conglomeration of material to supply the Christian apologist for their edification and evangelical work... The site also has an infamously cold blooded, fundamentalistic bent that, wanting to go after the belly of the beast and bone up on a bit of homo apologetics, drew me in... It is a huge, daunting site with (as of this posting) Active Threads: 54,524, Posts: 1,411,026, Members: 18,109 and over one million views a month... There is maybe five openly gay, regular members, numerous ones who pop in, explode and either vanish or get banished (some would be recognized from here) and with over 4,000 (get a life) posts myself, I've kind of become there token, queer whipping boy... I've got an incredibly thick skin and the kill 'em with kindness attitude that SoulForce helped me learn...

It was the gay man ejected from a local homeless shelter that inspired me to post here again... I also posted the story there... I do not start many gay threads as I get sick of the subject and there are much more interesting things to talk about, but I've always wanted to share some of the more outrageous remarks and expose some of what we're up against (cyber forum wise anyway)... The most offensive attacks on me I just find bizarre, morbidly entertaining and incredibly sad that people walk around with this kind of brain in their head...

I have finally called another well known member called coadie (15,000 + posts, I believe the most prolific on the site) to the mat. They are ridiculously homophobic and almost incoherently hate mongering... About a year ago they seemed to inadvertantly confess, quote "I have 3 children. They all eventually came out and were found to not be born again. They can all three be born again. Become new creatures..." Naturally this brought quick questions to verify that they indeed had three for three children turn out gay. They ditched the statement in apparent shame... Occasionally I have brought this up publically and asked for clarification only to then have the "conversation" instantly dropped... The shelter story brought this to a head and I demanded the hypocrisy be addressed, or if ignored and deemed "off topic" to the thread, I openly threatened to start a new thread specifically on that topic... I got an open denial that they had any gay children, but no clarification as to their quote, and I had had enough... Thus, I started the carefully worded thread:

__________________________________________________ _____

A Hat Trick of Homosexuals

Hypothetically speaking, of course, what would be your gut reaction to hearing that what would appear to be a fundamentalist Christian household, produced three out of three children as homosexuals? Does Nature or Nurture, or something else come to mind and why?

(...and before I get accused of bombardiering for queers because some cyber gay agenda has brainwashed me to, this time, you'd be right. Sort of...)

_____________________________________________

...in my first reply, to a friendly response, I stated "The parents of gay children are made guilty by the same mentality that discriminates against their kids. Society does blame them and many are forced into a similar closet that their children endure, and that is a tragedy..."

I didn't want to (and as per the rules) just attack said poster/parent about their hypocrisy and obvious shame directly... The situation they are in is tough enough... I linked to PFLAG... My anger was tempered with real concern for them...

But that is just the background... The revdaneedson is a real, live minister. We have had some "lively" exchanges before... He just posted this to my OP:

"It makes sense to me.....Hitler was born an evil person. Jeffery Dauhmer came out and admited it was his nature to kill and eat homos. The Inca people's natural culture was to kill 12 year old virgin girls and skin their bodies and wear the skin to worship their god. Even animals engage in homo activity. They go so far as to eat their own young.
So, I encourage all you certain homos that kill and eat the bodies of your victims to come clean. you will be accepted by queer nation because after all, it's nature, and meant to be!"

To which I replied:

I've been compared to child molesters, rapists, murderers, horney average joes and even a Satanic, necrophiliac horse fetishist once, but being encouraged to pursue my canibalistic Incan tendencies is a new one... Quite a creative stretch that must have left you all giggley and positively spent.

Funny I'm never compared to the slanderers who are going to Hell with me.

I'd ask what this embarrassing bit of self-satire has to do exactly with the OP, but I am not to encourage a brother to stumble, much less snuff themselves out for my entertainment.

~Coadie has responded a couple times in a very generic way, actually tearing themself up a little more, feigning(?) unawareness that this is about him. But most regulars involved in the gay threads know exactly what is happening between the lines and keep it all hypothetical (so far)... It is all just too fascinating...

I just wanted to share this with with you all, toot my own nonviolent horn (which I do credit to my time spent here refining and softening my virtual self) and invite anyone who is looking for a little gorier battle now and then to visit CARM and jump in on the fun...

Thanks for listening...

[ladyinred]

The thing is I now stay away from forums like that, they can actually get you to believing stuff like that. Don't feel bad about the posts LOL I'm like that. But I think for the sake of my mental health I stay away from really antigay forums, or don't hang around too long.You will never convince them differently and the way that guy was talking to you should say something about the extent of BS they will put on you to demoralize you.Think about being in a really negative demoralizing environment that is non supportive and that tells you you are evil,cannabilistic and all the other crap they lay on you constantly.After a while it would wear and tear on your soul, you would feel so dejected and demoralized, that stuff is toxic to your soul. You need to be around more affirming people at least much of the time to offset that. That group is just going to pull you down the mud and muck with them and all you can do then from there is sink. You are not their whipping boy. That just gives them all the more reason to dehumanize you and pick on you. You do not need that kind of excuse my language ,shit.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by ladyinred

The thing is I now stay away from forums like that, they can actually get you to believing stuff like that. Don't feel bad about the posts LOL I'm like that. But I think for the sake of my mental health I stay away from really antigay forums, or don't hang around too long.You will never convince them differently and the way that guy was talking to you should say something about the extent of BS they will put on you to demoralize you. Think about being in a really negative demoralizing environment that is non supportive and that tells you you are evil,cannabilistic and all the other crap they lay on you constantly.After a while it would wear and tear on your soul, you would feel so dejected and demoralized, that stuff is toxic to your soul.

Someone's got to give a balanced perspective and different point of view. I have the type of disposition that the demonizing just rolls off my back and as such do feel God wants me there... I know I won't change the minds of the most acerbic fundamentalist and that is not my goal. I know I have given pause to those in the making and have forged private relationships with a number of them who are glad I am posting and have stated that are less sure about the evil of gays.... I am trying to reach not only them, but the lurkers I don't know of and those who remain closeted on the site... I try to write what I wish I could have read when I was seventeen and tell them as much.

You need to be around more affirming people at least much of the time to offset that. That group is just going to pull you down the mud and muck with them and all you can do then from there is sink. You are not their whipping boy. That just gives them all the more reason to dehumanize you and pick on you. You do not need that kind of excuse my language ,shit.

I have plenty of affirming friends and maybe have returned here not so much for the support than for the like minded opinions... I am a Christian and enjoy the thoughts there on other matters. They are no threat to my well being... I posted the extreme... The kindness and understanding I get far outweighs the likes of the revdanes and coadies. The people who have gay friends and family members and have asked me for advice on how to help them makes the piddly, comical suction cup arrows and squirt gun bullets more than worth it.

~The lowest anti-gay posts that radiate hatred speak for themselves and act like the Fred Phelps blasphemy on the site. It is those that get even normal fundamentalists to occasionally chime in and berate each other in my defense... The "God Hates Fags" minority do far more damage to their cause than I ever could with their own exposed words and I have no problem being the catalyst to root them out.

ps: I meant to start off with a friendly Hi lady in red, thank you for your concern... but got all forumulized and hit the submit before adding that... so better late than never...

[Gregory_de_Bois]

I post there too awediot. My screen name is rylan_losce. You've seen me.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

. I am trying to reach not only them, but the lurkers I don't know of and those who remain closeted on the site... I try to write what I wish I could have read when I was seventeen and tell them as much.

This is what I often have in the back of my mind. My sense is that we can't take anything for granted- you never know who is tuning in.

And I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of the lowest anti-gay posts. While we don't have as much of that here (they get taken down by the moderators pretty fast), the MO of more than a few of this type (and it is a type it seems) becomes apparent if one gives the party enough rope. They fairly hang themselves of one 'stands back' far enough. But it's taken me a while to learn that. It's often too easy to get sucked into the vortex (Ok...I'm mixing metaphors now!).

It's good to have you back!

And if I can mention it: your writing style and expression has changed. You seem like something's been clarified. Can only be good.

[ladyinred]

Well I had a few hits on those forums, and I had to leave when it got too noxious. Of course anytime I talked about God or Christ some of the fundies said I was crazy and all the bull they would come up with.It's like when Dash was posting and the guy said "man up" and suggested he was some psychiatric case. But that happens on those forums I've seem it all too often. Some get really nasty when other people suggest something outside their box or beliefs. I just don't tangle with them. But I find if you are around really toxic people for too long they tend to weigh you down. I'd have to get away to "detox" LOL Some of the women on the forums who were atheists were hillarious and used to really get to them, they would just grumble.

[ladyinred]

Hypothetically speaking, of course, what would be your gut reaction to hearing that what would appear to be a fundamentalist Christian household, produced three out of three children as homosexuals? Does Nature or Nurture, or something else come to mind and why?

It's God's way to tell them to get over it,LOL(their child being homosexual that is)

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Gregory_de_Bois

I post there too awediot. My screen name is rylan_losce. You've seen me.

COOL!

Getting to know you well... You seem "ohm" enough to last over there...

I'll definately be in touch...

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

This is what I often have in the back of my mind. My sense is that we can't take anything for granted- you never know who is tuning in.

And I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of the lowest anti-gay posts. While we don't have as much of that here (they get taken down by the moderators pretty fast), the MO of more than a few of this type (and it is a type it seems) becomes apparent if one gives the party enough rope. They fairly hang themselves ie stand back. But it's taken me a while to learn that. It's often too easy to get sucked into the vortex (Ok...I'm mixing metaphors now!).

It's good to have you back!

And if I can mention it: your writing style and expression has changed. You seem like something's been clarified. Can only be good.

Hi Daniel,

It's interesting posting here again... nice to hear from some of you good old regulars...

I've learned a great deal as to the parameters of fundamentalist thinking. And been able to refine just what stumps them (and how to present it in a more loving way... maybe now I'm bored and just want to come back to raise hell since they're sick of me )

My goal is just to leave enough of an impression that the next time one of their kids comes out they're not booted or condemned as easily without an implanted thought or two popping in their heads... Having someone accidentally answer "Yes I could have chosen what gender I was attracted to" and gently pointing out that makes them bi is just a perk...

Thanks for the welcome...

[Zerbie]

Well, Awe dude, I'm glad you have that proverbially thick skin - and I wish I could at least borrow it from time to time. Have heard all my life I need to grow one, but I still cry at the thought of animals and plants having died to provide for my dinner with hubby tonight, so I fare even less well reading at CARM. I used to look there, and saw some things posted to you that stopped my heart with a cold dark vice. When it began beating again, I wanted to weep.

I hope whatever observations you've made there will soon be shared here, since I have no understanding of what a conservative christian is really about. And you kind of *are* one, aren't you? I like having you around here as it steps up my learning.

Bless you for having the heart to think of the lurkers, especially the young and fearful who may be gay. May your words steer them far from the shores of self-hatred.

Did very many members there ask you how they could help their gay family members? That's very very good news if several of them asked you that.

Thank you for doing this. But please do take breaks because I am very much in agreement with Red - lingering a long time with any certain type of energy puts our focus on it. Our focus needs to be on love, on our spiritual growth, not on putting down others who we think have chosen a wrong path, or on all the negativity in this world, of which there is way too much. We need to be responsible for creating a positive environment; one where people feel safe, wanted, loved - where they are able to deepen their connection with God - and that is not done by constant nit-picking, arguing, and fault-finding. It is done by seeing the light of God in those around us.

Oh and - thanks for remembering that some folks in this world are bi. You can be a light of hope for them too, if you remember to speak as lovingly of them as you do of the young frightened closeted gay folk.

Let me know if that thick skin of yours is available for rental, and what the hourly rate might be.

[awediot]

...After the rev. got increasigly ugly and was asked to stop by numerous other posters...


Aweidiot,
Even though I strongly disagree with you on your views of homosexuality, I can not go to sleep tonight without first stating this.
I do not believe in airing very personal and very sensitive subjects. But briefly, and without going into any details, and never to address this particular matter again, I will state the following.
When I was an adollescent I was abused on more than one occassion by a person, a male, not related to me, in a sexual nature.
I have to be honest, for the Spirit of the Lord has rebuked me. I said all the harsh words toward you because I realize that I have not fully forgiven this person. I apologize to you and take this opportunity to make it a blanket apology to all.
I do not apologize for believing homosexuality is a grievious sin against God and mankind, but this did not give me the right to be insulting.
Before you and the others doubt my words consider this:
I am a publically known person, I am a father of three sons, I am a husband, I am a grandfather, and I am a man. This is very very difficult for me to share, even briefly, the physical abuse that was forced on to myself, but for me, if i don't admit I still posses a little unforgivness, toward an abuser decades ago, I will not be able to come to terms with it and allow God to take the pain away.
I was too full of pride to admit why I was being so rude. I am ashamed of myself and all I can do is ask for understanding and forgivness, which I don't derserve, because I did not give that to you.



This is part of why I find such exchanges worthwhile...

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by awediot

...After the rev. got increasigly ugly and was asked to stop by numerous other posters...


Aweidiot,
Even though I strongly disagree with you on your views of homosexuality, I can not go to sleep tonight without first stating this.
I do not believe in airing very personal and very sensitive subjects. But briefly, and without going into any details, and never to address this particular matter again, I will state the following.
When I was an adollescent I was abused on more than one occassion by a person, a male, not related to me, in a sexual nature.
I have to be honest, for the Spirit of the Lord has rebuked me. I said all the harsh words toward you because I realize that I have not fully forgiven this person. I apologize to you and take this opportunity to make it a blanket apology to all.
I do not apologize for believing homosexuality is a grievious sin against God and mankind, but this did not give me the right to be insulting.
Before you and the others doubt my words consider this:
I am a publically known person, I am a father of three sons, I am a husband, I am a grandfather, and I am a man. This is very very difficult for me to share, even briefly, the physical abuse that was forced on to myself, but for me, if i don't admit I still posses a little unforgivness, toward an abuser decades ago, I will not be able to come to terms with it and allow God to take the pain away.
I was too full of pride to admit why I was being so rude. I am ashamed of myself and all I can do is ask for understanding and forgivness, which I don't derserve, because I did not give that to you.



This is part of why I find such exchanges worthwhile...

Wow. God moves in mysterious ways!

[Daniel]

Awediot- Wow! That's something! For the guy to address it- and in 'public' no less- says something.

When I came out years ago, a person close to me had a very harsh and negative reaction. More than a decade later, that person told me of being abused as an adolescent. It explained their behavior and made me aware that the person speaking to one may have many 'voices' inside them which they themselves are not aware of. Being aware of things can bring up a lot of pain.

I hope that the guy who wrote the note is able to forgive himself.

Powerful stuff!

[tdogg]

Just wanted to say that I'm glad to 'see' you back Awe! Missed you and your thoughtful words!

Thanks for all you do on that nasty web site. Someone has to do it, I don't have the patience or nerve for it at present. I know there are others here that venture to that place, know I am praying for you and I appreciate the effort. We must venture into the darkness to bring our light.

Good to have you back Awediot!

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Just wanted to say that I'm glad to 'see' you back Awe! Missed you and your thoughtful words!

Thanks for all you do on that nasty web site. Someone has to do it, I don't have the patience or nerve for it at present. I know there are others here that venture to that place, know I am praying for you and I appreciate the effort. We must venture into the darkness to bring our light.

Good to have you back Awediot!

hey there ms tdogg.

thanks for the welcome... i've missed this place in alot of ways and some of you sweethearts more than i think i realise... I really appreciate the support and encouragement... that place is fascinating and as infuriating (not really, i find it far more entertaining than anything) as it can be, it truly is some of the out of the blue things like i've been discussing that just amaze and have addicted me... i kind of hate coming here to just spout inter-related forumania, but its pretty interesting... maybe some day you'll find a reason to dive on in... you and zerb can pitch in to rent my thick skin ..

hope to get into some of the drama here soon enough.