Mel White Believes in Scriptural Inerrancy?

[Experiment with Truth]

You know something U-Dog. I really like you. You are great. I will give you 10 points for the super conservative thing. But I am not Catholic. Latin Mass (-5 points).

Because I like you I will tell you a little about myself. You have softened me up a little. I grew up in a very little town with a Country Church. When my father took ill before I went off to College I started attending an independent Baptist Church. Then I married a Methodist after college. What a ride that was for a small town country boy. I suppose the shocker was when I felt excluded for my Traditional views because I opposed the rainbow banner hanging from the Cross at Easter. I was told we needed to enter into a dialog to discuss our differences. Dialog only meant to these people a code word for, "prolong the discussion until we have enough political power to silence these bigots". Interestingly, I never harmed any gay person, we had a gay couple in our home bible study and I gave them hugs and welcomed them into our home. However, it seemed to me that the United Church of Christ was the best fit for these people because there they could promote their beliefs.

In my journey I became tired of the viewing the Scriptures through the judgmental view of Fundamentalism. So I started looking at what other religions taught. I even travelled to see a guru of sorts from India who lived in California. I met a Professor of Philosophy and Religion who was an expert in Zen. I practiced Tai Chi and Yoga. All the while I kept asking myself, "In what way can I see Christ in all men." Many of my Christian friends worried that I was losing my faith and that I would turn out Hindu. Instead I became more dedicated to Christ. And I think discussing matters with you and others like you serves one purpose for me; to purge me of my past prejudices so the whole issue regarding homosexuality is no longer a big issue in my mind. I still view it as wrong and my children's exposure to it at public school sex education is not something I am happy with. I believe Jesus spoke to us as it being wrong by his very birth into the Holy Family. This is the high ideal for all of us to follow. In our brokeness we all fall short of the perfect high ideal. A people with a high ideal to strive for will sin less than a people with no ideal (Swami Vivikenanda).

Some of your readers will say, "Ah, what a bigot. Don't give this guy the time of day." I will be judged with little regard for the cultural influences that shaped me. I try to look at what the influences are that shaped all our ideas. One gay person I know is the way they are because of a rape and the other due to spousal abuse. Pain seems to be the human condition. So while I believe their lifestyle is wrong, (forgive me if that term offends anyone, but it is the only language I know to convey my conviction), I will not judge them at all regarding their salvation. For me that is a big step because I was told in my youth at a Baptist Church camp that God gives up on homosexuals. Imagine my fight and struggle with not only that, but the fear I faced that I myself may be damned. The fear instilled in my from my Baptist days was the result of pure hell fire and brimstone conversion techniques. And the pastor told me that they would not accept my baptism from my little Country Church because they could not be sure I was really saved. This all at the impressionable age of 18. So I have faced the demons and damage caused by misguided faith/religion too.

However, I love every aspect of the faith I was taught as a child in the old Country Church. I can't say my college experience in an Independent Baptist Church was beneficial. My journey through Methodism led me to a deeper understanding of Holiness and a search for older more Traditional forms of worship. My journey through other faiths/religions led me to the realization that God has provided a witness for all peoples, but that Jesus is unique. I bow down to him as a disciple. I am Orthodox.

I absolutely love this saying from T.S. Eliott that my professor friend loved to quote: "We shall not cease from exploration, And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, And know the place for the first time."

So thank you U-Dog and others for your comments. Now you know my story and I am ready to move on in my faith to improve myself and hopefully to be a light to others. May the peace of God be with all.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Experiment with Truth

You know something U-Dog. I really like you. You are great.

I'm glad to hear it. I, on the other hand, have not liked YOU in the least... until now. Not because you said you liked me, but because you shared who you are. You should lead with your story in the future. Nothing sets off our "perimeter alarms" like a lack of transparency. We have experienced SO MANY "stealth attacks" from radical Christian homophobes that we are wary.

I am Orthodox.

Orthodox with a lower-case "o"? (as in "I believe what I think everyone before me has believed") or Orthodox with an upper-case "O"? (as in Eastern, Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian Othodox?)

So thank you U-Dog and others for your comments. Now you know my story and I am ready to move on in my faith to improve myself and hopefully to be a light to others. May the peace of God be with all.

"move on" as in tackle the next topic? or "move on" as in stop posting here and going someplace else?

[Dash]

Originally Posted by Experiment with Truth

So thank you U-Dog and others for your comments. Now you know my story and I am ready to move on in my faith to improve myself and hopefully to be a light to others. May the peace of God be with all.

Originally Posted by u-dog

"move on" as in tackle the next topic? or "move on" as in stop posting here and going someplace else?

[raises arm...takes a big whiff of pit]

No, I didn't forget to put on deodorant...that can't be it...

U-dog? Have you been rollin' in the garbage again?

(thanks Austin for the humorous imagery. And, journey well, Experiments. )

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Dash

[raises arm...takes a big whiff of pit]

No, I didn't forget to put on deodorant...that can't be it...

U-dog? Have you been rollin' in the garbage again?

(thanks Austin for the humorous imagery. And, journey well, Experiments. )

I grew up on lake Erie and our dog used to go down to the beach, find a dead fish and roll in it. She thought she smelled SO GOOD. She didn't. But that is not my thing... so I don't think I'm at fault.

I think it was Uncle Andy that drove him away. He's such a rabid, snarling, Calvinist that he scares people. sort of a Presbyterian Pitbull.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Experiment with Truth

You know something U-Dog. I really like you. You are great. I will give you 10 points for the super conservative thing. But I am not Catholic. Latin Mass (-5 points).

Because I like you I will tell you a little about myself. You have softened me up a little. I grew up in a very little town with a Country Church. When my father took ill before I went off to College I started attending an independent Baptist Church. Then I married a Methodist after college. What a ride that was for a small town country boy. I suppose the shocker was when I felt excluded for my Traditional views because I opposed the rainbow banner hanging from the Cross at Easter. I was told we needed to enter into a dialog to discuss our differences. Dialog only meant to these people a code word for, "prolong the discussion until we have enough political power to silence these bigots". Interestingly, I never harmed any gay person, we had a gay couple in our home bible study and I gave them hugs and welcomed them into our home. However, it seemed to me that the United Church of Christ was the best fit for these people because there they could promote their beliefs.

In my journey I became tired of the viewing the Scriptures through the judgmental view of Fundamentalism. So I started looking at what other religions taught. I even travelled to see a guru of sorts from India who lived in California. I met a Professor of Philosophy and Religion who was an expert in Zen. I practiced Tai Chi and Yoga. All the while I kept asking myself, "In what way can I see Christ in all men." Many of my Christian friends worried that I was losing my faith and that I would turn out Hindu. Instead I became more dedicated to Christ. And I think discussing matters with you and others like you serves one purpose for me; to purge me of my past prejudices so the whole issue regarding homosexuality is no longer a big issue in my mind. I still view it as wrong and my children's exposure to it at public school sex education is not something I am happy with. I believe Jesus spoke to us as it being wrong by his very birth into the Holy Family. This is the high ideal for all of us to follow. In our brokeness we all fall short of the perfect high ideal. A people with a high ideal to strive for will sin less than a people with no ideal (Swami Vivikenanda).

Interesting. With all of these influences upon your beliefs, how do you claim that you hold to a "Traditional" Chrisitianity? You've been influenced by other cultures and religions, yet the "traditional" christianity I was taught was that, as christians, we were to exert influence on the culture.

Some of your readers will say, "Ah, what a bigot. Don't give this guy the time of day." I will be judged with little regard for the cultural influences that shaped me. I try to look at what the influences are that shaped all our ideas. One gay person I know is the way they are because of a rape and the other due to spousal abuse. Pain seems to be the human condition. So while I believe their lifestyle is wrong, (forgive me if that term offends anyone, but it is the only language I know to convey my conviction), I will not judge them at all regarding their salvation. For me that is a big step because I was told in my youth at a Baptist Church camp that God gives up on homosexuals. Imagine my fight and struggle with not only that, but the fear I faced that I myself may be damned. The fear instilled in my from my Baptist days was the result of pure hell fire and brimstone conversion techniques. And the pastor told me that they would not accept my baptism from my little Country Church because they could not be sure I was really saved. This all at the impressionable age of 18. So I have faced the demons and damage caused by misguided faith/religion too.

Is there a clue in there somewhere? are you saying that you feared you might be gay, and that God would give up on you too?

However, I love every aspect of the faith I was taught as a child in the old Country Church. I can't say my college experience in an Independent Baptist Church was beneficial. My journey through Methodism led me to a deeper understanding of Holiness and a search for older more Traditional forms of worship. My journey through other faiths/religions led me to the realization that God has provided a witness for all peoples, but that Jesus is unique. I bow down to him as a disciple. I am Orthodox.

again, I'm not sure how you can claim that you are "Traditional" after having gone on that journey.

So thank you U-Dog and others for your comments. Now you know my story and I am ready to move on in my faith to improve myself and hopefully to be a light to others. May the peace of God be with all.

leaving? you just got here.

[tdogg]

EWT

Thanks for sharing more about yourself. It helps us to understand where you are coming from a little better.

You say that you never hurt any gay people. Then you say you believe homosexuality is wrong, meaning you believe we are wrong. Then you use terms that offend and hurt gay people (lifestyle). This hurts gay people EWT. So you have most likely hurt gay people in your life.

Sounds like you maybe have moved on. If so, I wish you all the best and pray that in your journey God will open your mind and heart to the truth. Blessings & love to you.

[BruceChris]

Is the one subscribed to by everybody who considers themselves "orthodox", or who goes to the biggest church in town, and seems to fit in, and never discusses their beliefs in sufficient depth so as to realize that they do not believe exactly the same things that their fellow congregants actually do.

Consensus is easy to come by, as long as no one asks any detailed questions.

O.K., I'm beginning to sound a bit judgemental here. God loves all of us, and I believe that S/He wants all of us to love, and forgive each other.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

WOW!!!

What a journey!

Ya'll: What I get from the allusions to fear of being damned oneself, was the fear that any degree of "tolerance" for gay persons was viewed by the rest of his community as 'wrong' and a sign that he himself could be damned for being, I guess, too liberal. Even though Exp's belief is still quite a conservative one.

Of course it comes as no surprise whatsoever to me that the yoga and energetic studies/practices led to a deeper communion with Christ. That is what yoga, practiced correctly, does. (deepen one's religious faith, whatever the religion, I mean.)

I have to emphasize Tdogg's point too, though: using terms like "lifestyle" and saying 'homosexuality is wrong' and that you don't want your child to learn some actual real-life facts about gay people in sex ed (age appropriate class, one assumes) IS hurtful to gay people, even if you have been unaware of it so far. Perhaps one of your children's best friends might be a little gay child. Teaching that little child he (let's make him a boy in this case) is "wrong" for being who he is, and SO wrong that people like him must not even be mentioned or taught about is extremely damaging. Think about what life must look like to a 10 year old boy who knows that he is gay - imagine that child listening to everything you say about homosexuals, and before you speak, as you choose your words, imagine him listening.

This world is a complicated place. There are people who have been traumatized and/or sexually abused and have resultantly struggled with their sexuality (whether hetero OR other), and this struggle can include confusion about one's sexual orientation. There are also people with non-hetero orientations who have not dealt with abuse who simply are as they are (just as there are straight people who DON'T become gay after abuse or trauma). There are ALL types.

One thing set me off, Exp, and that was the implicit suggestion that gay people have no ideals, or have low ideals. That is a ridicuously false implication. I have tended to seek out the companionship of gay people since I was a wee thing, because I have found through observation that, to make a gross overgeneralization, many gay people tend to have the LOFTIEST of spiritual and humanitarian ideals.

It is my fervent wish that you will cease seeing your gay friends' sexuality as a sign of their "fallenness" or "brokenness." Sexuality, whether acted upon or not, is linked inextricably with the soul's capacity to love. Taking away the homosexuality from a gay person = taking away their nature to love. It is the noblest, highest part of the human spirit - and if you try to carve it out of someone, or if you doubt it, you do harm to that soul.

As for "lifestyle," consider all the gay persons who live much the same as you do: sleep, wake, work, dinner, time with family and/or partner: I can only then assume that you disapprove of your own lifestyle just as much, since it consists of the same behaviors?

Best wishes to you as you continue your journey. Thanks for stopping in here along the way - pick up some of our ideas and examine them sincerely for a while.

[revtj]

Originally Posted by BruceChris
I always thought that it was Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza that gave us the hermeneutics of suspicion, as the foundation for her feminist theology.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

Oh yes, she made the method popular with the name "hermeneutics of suspicion" in the rise of feminist critique in the 70s-80s. But it really all began with what is called the Modernist movement at the turn of the 20th century when for the first time in 5000 years the academy was safe to apply all the disciplines and resources of science to the Bible and question meaning based on trying to construct (or reconstruct) context. Prior to this it wasn't popular though it had been done. (i.e. people were merely tried for heresy instead of being burned at the stake ) So I would attribute the hermeneutics of suspicion to the modernist movement --> Ricoeur --> Schussler Fiorenza : sort of like the gift that keeps on giving.

I would put this long tradition over and against fundamentalism which simply forbids questioning the text. This is known as the "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it" movement & it has a grip on some Americans the same way Osama bin Laden's interpretation of Islam has a grip on some Muslims.

I choose freedom. I choose conscience and the Holy Spirit to lead me to the truth. I acknowledge all of us don't have to agree 100% to be the body of Christ, doing justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with our God. I do not wish to punish those who interpret the Bible differently than I do, neither will I be degraded or oppressed by them either.

[wmanion]

I believe that EWT is hinting to the tradition of marriage which for two thousand years has taught one man and one woman. However, this one man and one woman tradition was not the original tradition...polygamy was the tradition. It was not uncommon for men to have many wives and concubines to serve him and provide him with heirs. Howbeit, the traditional marriage of today is not the traditional marriage of two thousand years ago. Women are not property; divorce is more of a norm than staying together until death do us part. Marriage has evolved into something completely different than what it was 2000 years ago. Serial Marriage is more of the norm when it comes to marriage.
And yes, from what I understand SoulForce is peacefully advocating the right to marry for all despite sexual orientation. Any rights that are denied individuals due to skin color, religion, gender or sexual orientation while another group has those rights is the true definition of special rights. Why is it so hard to see who it is that really has the special rights in this country?
This country began with educated white men who were propery owners having all the special rights...we have evolved and we aren't done yet!

Bill

[pnggrad79]

I hope we aren't done yet. I am of the opinion that we repeat our mistakes here in the US because we haven't learned a damn thing from the past.

We pay lip service to freedom in this country and the Constitution seems to be more of a suggestion than the letter of the law, because we conveniently sidestep many civil liberties and deny basic freedoms to our citizens based on our sexual orientation.

[Gennee]

There is a difference between tradition and traditionalism. Traditions are generally time honored events usually a part of the family, church, etc. Traditionalism makes events, rituals, or whatever as hard and fast rules or requirements-something that goes against scripture. An example would be when the Pharisee's chastising the apostles for not going through ritual of washing hands before a meal.

Jesus was persecuted because he often went against traditionalism. One example is talking with the Samaritan woman. Jews and Samaritans were enemies because of the mixed heritage of the Samaritans among other things (a topic for another discussion). Healing on the Sabbath was another. Jesus often went against tradition and traditonalism because there was the greater need of ministering to people.

I believe there have been many lost opportunities for God to do a mighty work in many churches because tradition and traditionalism took precedence.
I believe that the LGBT community may be a part of His plan to awaken the church about some errors regarding how people are treated.

I do believe in the bible's inerrancy after much study and prayer. If ten people were asked the same question You would get ten different answers.
After over thirty years of reading, study and prayer, there are things in scripture that still do not comprehend but that's okay. I don't know everything and neither does anybody else. The important thing is to do His will and use His instructional (the bible) on how to conduct ourselves.

Gennee

[antonyh]

I've read this thread and it is full of interesting perspectives. I am left wondering why we can't just say:

The Bible is a human response to God. Period.

As a human response to God, the Bible itself is full of all the goodness and all the corruption characteristic of the human race.

When I read Paul's strident denunciations of LGBT people in Romans 1, I can say, "Paul was wrong about the issue. I need to guard against the human tendency to judge things I don't understand. I need to realize that most of my opinions about things around me are uneducated..."

The gross errors and much of the horrific material in the Bible can instruct us about the very nature of the human response to God...and it's immense dangers. This may be a greater lesson than the many good things in the books.

The Bible is like a mirror. It is a simple reflection of the goodness and the ugliness of the human race blamed on God. To make it a divine book is madness.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by antonyh

When I read Paul's strident denunciations of LGBT people in Romans 1, I can say, "Paul was wrong about the issue. "

Antony!

Paul is NOT STRIDENTLY DENOUNCING LGBT PEOPLE !! He is referencing some (we don't know what) unsavory practices carried on by gentiles in order to get the Jewish Christians shorts in a knot. In chapter two he uses their outrage at the nasty Gentiles to hang the self righteous soandsos.

Don't buy into the shoddy exegesis of the far right!!!

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I've read this thread and it is full of interesting perspectives. I am left wondering why we can't just say:

The Bible is a human response to God. Period.

As a human response to God, the Bible itself is full of all the goodness and all the corruption characteristic of the human race.

The gross errors and much of the horrific material in the Bible can instruct us about the very nature of the human response to God...and it's immense dangers. This may be a greater lesson than the many good things in the books.

The Bible is like a mirror. It is a simple reflection of the goodness and the ugliness of the human race blamed on God. To make it a divine book is madness.

Antony, funny, after reading Gennee's post, I got to thinking...It's not so much that the Bible is or isn't inerrant. It's the failure of people to be perfect in their translating and interpreting that which God supposedly gave to them to write down. Then I read your post!

The old experiment, where several people sit in a circle, one starts it off by whispering something in the next person's ear and so on, all around the circle. At the end, it's never what the original whispered words were. Somewhere between God's intent and man's interpretation of that intent, things went a bit haywire. Then throw in the ancient original scriptures, condition, time, culture, those who wrote, and pass it down along the centuries, with various people continuing to interpret and translate - it's a wonder we can salvage any use out of the words we have today.

That's why it can only work with prayer and meditation, in context of our time and culture.

[kara speltz]

I briefly scanned the replies, and just want it to be very clear that Mel does not believe in biblical inerrancy and the suggestion that he does is preposterous. Any one who has read his writings or heard him speak knows this allegation to be untrue. kara

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Antony!

Paul is NOT STRIDENTLY DENOUNCING LGBT PEOPLE !! He is referencing some (we don't know what) unsavory practices carried on by gentiles in order to get the Jewish Christians shorts in a knot. In chapter two he uses their outrage at the nasty Gentiles to hang the self righteous soandsos.

Don't buy into the shoddy exegesis of the far right!!!

If you read Thomas E. Schmidt who has a Ph.D. from Cambridge in New Testament, he in good conscience believes that Romans 1 condemns homosexuality. His exegesis is not shoddy at all. He even admits to his Evangelical presuppositions in the preface.

My point is simply that if you view the Bible as a human response to God, then you don't have to worry who is right or wrong in the exegetical debate. You recognize the true nature of the Bible...a fallible, human book reflective of the problems of the human race.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Antony, funny, after reading Gennee's post, I got to thinking...It's not so much that the Bible is or isn't inerrant. It's the failure of people to be perfect in their translating and interpreting that which God supposedly gave to them to write down. Then I read your post!

The old experiment, where several people sit in a circle, one starts it off by whispering something in the next person's ear and so on, all around the circle. At the end, it's never what the original whispered words were. Somewhere between God's intent and man's interpretation of that intent, things went a bit haywire. Then throw in the ancient original scriptures, condition, time, culture, those who wrote, and pass it down along the centuries, with various people continuing to interpret and translate - it's a wonder we can salvage any use out of the words we have today.

That's why it can only work with prayer and meditation, in context of our time and culture.

I studied textual transmission in Seminary (& textual criticism) and I am fairly comfortable that we have good original language texts to work with (although that was not always the case). I am also comfortable with the translations. They don't get at the nuances of the original, but they are decent.

I totally agree with you about the problems of interpretation. We are marginal idiots when looking into the Biblical world and trying to figure out what the texts meant.

My assertion was deeper. I am saying that even if we had the autographs, they would still be a human response to God. The writers may delude themselves into thinking that they were writing on God's behalf, but they were not. That is my assertion.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by antonyh

My assertion was deeper. I am saying that even if we had the autographs, they would still be a human response to God. The writers may delude themselves into thinking that they were writing on God's behalf, but they were not. That is my assertion.

I surely agree. Can you imagine these guys who God is inspiring trying to comprehend the world we live in now with our cell phones and computers? There would be no way they could comprehend the word as it was expressed to them, because it would seemingly be impossible. Thus they would think they must have misunderstood and would keep trying out different scenarios that might make sense to them.

kara

[wmanion]

I also agree. The authors, with well intent I am sure, were still human and were struggling to understand the world around them and God. I have yet to meet anyone who is above making mistakes or misinterpreting events in our daily lives. We still do it today even with a greater knowledge of how the world works and there is still much that we do not know and understand. My long journey started in a foster home with a Baptist Minister at the age of 14, I knew I was gay before puberty ever landed, (though gay was not a known term to me until much later), I did everything to hide my sexual orientation, even to the extent of marriage and children, but it was not until I became true to myself that I actually became free and found a closer walk with God than I ever had.
The Scriptures are historical and contain much wisdom but without actually taking into account the mind set of the day, we will continue to misinterpret. There are many great writers today who are inspired, but not fallible...I wonder how people will interpret their works many years from now.