Why Zerbie is not christian

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

I now have a much greater respect for Calvinists due to the good example set by these fine people. I now see the best of the group and not the worst. (Now if we could just get them to get rid of that "predestination" nonsense.)

The irony is that even Calvin hated the notion of pre-destination. His problem was that he was trained as a lawyer and he had painted himself into a theological corner called pre-destination and had too much intellectual integrity to deny it.

But he mostly told people not to think too much about it.

[revtj]

After coming out in 1980, dropping my plans for becoming a Presbyterian minister, I was in my second year of seminary 14 years later before I would call my self 'christian' again. AIDS had certainly been a part of my reticence; that & the desire to explore everything 'heretical,' which rounded me out quite a bit theologically & personally...but mostly I was sick and tired of the 25 year old fight in my denomination (PCUSA) over gay ordination. I have no patience with that any longer!

I still prefer christian without a capital c.

Zerbie, do you read Anne Lamott?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by revtj

Zerbie, do you read Anne Lamott?

If you haven't you MUST!!! "Travelling Mercies" is a FANTASTIC book. How she wanders into a funky urban Presbyterian congregation and finds God and a lot of other stuff taboot. She is very very funny and filled with Grace. You would LOVE HER WRITING !!!

[Freespirited]

After a loooooooong absenty from this forum I am back!!


Zerbie I can relate to your disgust with christianity! I too

am quite tired of it! but there is something a bit more

disturbing to me, and that is of those who still struggle

to be gay and at the same time in longing to be or wanting

to remain being a christian!? I personally find this kind of

marriage of identities to be very degrating for one's self

confidence, integrity, and self respect!!



Leandro

[sailaway58]

Unlike U-Dog I have no idea who will be in heaven.
At nine years old it is hard to believe you had such a clear thought process on the subject.
Third grade for me was Weekly Readers and going to Cub Scouts.
I still relate to God the way I related to my father in my early years. I know he loves me but I am pretty much on my own. I believe, or say I believe, in a more personal Jesus but I tend to live out my faith in a more distant fashion.
There have been over the years and presently some great and loving Christians that believe orientation is a choice. Sometimes they may even say things that end up being hurtful. 20 years ago most of you would have wanted me in hell with that misinformed preacher. Gods grace has to be good enough for all of us.
So hate those that misunderstand you that wrong you, visualize them in hell…just like Jesus did.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by revtj

After coming out in 1980, dropping my plans for becoming a Presbyterian minister, I was in my second year of seminary 14 years later before I would call my self 'christian' again. AIDS had certainly been a part of my reticence; that & the desire to explore everything 'heretical,' which rounded me out quite a bit theologically & personally...but mostly I was sick and tired of the 25 year old fight in my denomination (PCUSA) over gay ordination. I have no patience with that any longer!

I still prefer christian without a capital c.

I like the way you put it. And I have found myself rumminating on the use of the big C here on the forum. In writing the word with the capital, I have been telling myself that I am being respectful to others, yet, in doing so, am I respecting myself? Perhaps not. I guess some balance is needed on my part. Interesting how such a small thing can say so much.

And then there's the matter of being rounded out. What a great way to put it! I think of myself of being rounded out too. All that heresy has done me a great deal of good.

But what I really want to say is....

I enjoy your posts immensely.

Originally Posted by Freespirited

I too am quite tired of it! but there is something a bit more disturbing to me, and that is of those who still struggle to be gay and at the same time in longing to be or wanting
to remain being a christian!? I personally find this kind of marriage of identities to be very degrating for one's self confidence, integrity, and self respect!!

Who is stuggling with whom and what? That's what's interesting to me. The central figure of Christianity (ah....the capital rears it's head!) is Jesus. And he had nothing to say about gay people, though he may have, in fact, been loving towards a gay person. Remember the Centurion and his 'servant'?

I think Jesus is the touchstone for many gay people. And why not? The man certainly turned things upside down and inside out during his lifetime. His message of love is very compelling. And his Golden Rule embodies so much good- being treated with respect isn't a small thing. Finding the person and the message, and dividing that from the contemporary/political christianity (thought I'd try a little c and see how it feels!) isn't an easy feat: the people screaming the loudest about gay people reflect the line on the oft-quoted tee shirt: 'Jesus! Save Me From Your Followers!' But I think it is worth the effort for those who have the desire to do so. In fact, it may be an imperative. Are gay christians (ok....I'll stay with the lower case for now) going to let those who use the Big C define them? I hope not.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Unlike U-Dog I have no idea who will be in heaven.

Sailaway, If you have a list of people you wanna know about just PM me and I'll highlight the ones who are going to heaven and just scratch out the ones who won't be. I always like to be helpful whenever I can!!

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Daniel

...let's just drain the gnosis out of the good ol' book entirely....shall we?

Oh God Daniel that’s perfect.

Originally Posted by Emproph

In fact, why not just pull the plug on gnosis altogether and watch it circle the drain?

Gnosis. Meaning, to know. Not believing, not having faith. To know and to see – for certain.

And we wonder why the gnostic gospels were chosen by men in a fallen state to be left out of the Biblical canon...

How do we know God isn’t all in our mind? And how do we communicate that to everyone else?

PS, not that you believe that Daniel, I'm just throwing it out there.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

I know that when I first joined these forums I had a somewhat negative view of Calvinists. When I was a teenager our neighbors on both sides were Presbyterians. They were both arrogant and snobbish. I had a view of Presbyterians as rich, white, stiff, snobbish people. But now (I have to stop and get up my energy to actually say something nice about someone; it's not easy for me.) After meeting the Calvinists here like Dave, Andy and Brent; I have changed my mind. I now have a much greater respect for Calvinists due to the good example set by these fine people. I now see the best of the group and not the worst. (Now if we could just get them to get rid of that "predestination" nonsense.)

Actually, we're just as mean, nasty, and snobbish as the rest of the "frozen chosen." We just hide it well. [grin]

[dsdrane]

Hey, hey!

I resemble that remark!

[BrentRichards]

But you're a whiskey-palian, not a calvinist!

[dsdrane]

Well...we're the Frozen Chosen...and, just remember:

ice is a mixer.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Well...we're the Frozen Chosen...and, just remember:

ice is a mixer.

First Church of the Frigidaire???

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

At nine years old it is hard to believe you had such a clear thought process on the subject.

What does a number have to do with connecting to God?

Third grade for me was Weekly Readers and going to Cub Scouts.
I still relate to God the way I related to my father in my early years. I know he loves me but I am pretty much on my own. I believe, or say I believe, in a more personal Jesus but I tend to live out my faith in a more distant fashion.
There have been over the years and presently some great and loving Christians that believe orientation is a choice. Sometimes they may even say things that end up being hurtful. 20 years ago most of you would have wanted me in hell with that misinformed preacher. Gods grace has to be good enough for all of us.
So hate those that misunderstand you that wrong you, visualize them in hell…just like Jesus did.

Thank you for that reminder. I think we all forget things like that from time to time. We often wind up fighting against people who, a few years ago, might have been ourselves. Might as well be, in fact.

We need to learn to see with a perspective that is broader in time - to who we were once long ago, and who we might be in the future. Someone we are fighting today might turn around to be a staunch ally 10 years from now. And consider, this entire Soulforce organization was founded by a man who spent something close to 40 years of his life living in a sort of "ex-gay" denial - and look how Mel turned out.

I don't understand your last line, Sailor, except that I feel you being angry or hurt. Visualize people in hell???? That is horrific. Did you get that from my bringing up this entire subject? I apologize if I hurt you.

I don't like the fact that I posted such a negative story. Maybe I should have continued keeping it to myself.

[u-dog]

Zerbie! That is ia powerful story! The negativity had nothing to do with you!

I believe that sailaway is making reference to something that I said, so perhaps I should clarify.

I suggested that you would be standing before the throne and would recognize the lamb of God when you saw him. and that the Lamb would recognize you and that you would know that you had known him all along.

In the process I suggested that the Misinformed (not to mention brutally warped and hate twisted) "minister" would be no where in attendance.

I need to be clear that

1. I don't WANT him to be in Hell (if there even IS such a place)
2. I don't fantasize him being in Hell but

IF he still believes as he did in Zerbie's youth and is still saying such things and IF Hell is "separation from God" then HE IS IN HELL and WILL BE IN HELL until such time as he understands that his beliefs have nothing to do with God.

If there is such a thing as damnation (and I am not at all certain that there is) it is NOT a punishment... it is a consequence.

If there IS such a thing as salvation (and I am totally convinced that there is) it is NOT a reward ... it is a consequence of being open to the presence of God.

I have seen that openess in Zerbie a hundred times as she has dealt graciously with the hurt, wounded people who come to this forum and also as she has dealt with the arrogant and hatefilled who sometimes come here too.

I offer these couple of texts in support of my convictions:

Matthew 7:1-5 "judge not lest you be judged
Matthew 7: 15-19 "beware of false prophets ... you can judge a tree by its fruits"
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me "lord lord" will enter the Kingdom"
Mattew 25:41-46 "When you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for me"


PEOPLE are NOT just "hurt" by actions like these by so called Christians ... THEY DIE. Children and young people... beautiful, perfect children of God DIE BECAUSE MONSTERS LIKE THE ONE ZERBIE DESCRIBES spew this poison!!

But the CRIMES they commit against children and youth are only the HALF of it. They also Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by encouraging people to believe that this FILTH has anything to do with the Love of God and Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ok... so.... I'm pretty mad. Take a deep breath there Dave! Whew! Breathe it out!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Zerbie! That is ia powerful story! The negativity had nothing to do with you!

I'm not so sure now that spewing it over the internet isn't just adding to its negativity by perpetuating it. But I thank you for the support as I struggle with this.

.

If there is such a thing as damnation (and I am not at all certain that there is) it is NOT a punishment... it is a consequence.

If there IS such a thing as salvation (and I am totally convinced that there is) it is NOT a reward ... it is a consequence of being open to the presence of God.

Dave, you sound like a yogi right there.


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me "lord lord" will enter the Kingdom"

Great lesson for us all in that one. I love that one.
Mattew 25:41-46 "When you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for me"

But this one is my favorite. It's also the hardest to remember.


But the CRIMES they commit against children and youth are only the HALF of it. They also Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by encouraging people to believe that this FILTH has anything to do with the Love of God and Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is what horrified me through the core of my being. It is why I have always refused to have anything to do with christianity. I thought that this was its nature.

Ok... so.... I'm pretty mad. Take a deep breath there Dave! Whew! Breathe it out!

Let's try not to be angry. If we are angry we will only make ourselves feel worse.

I am trying really hard to let go of that old definition of what christianity is - it's just hard when people say and do things in the name of Jesus that only reinforce that first traumatic impression.

[BrentRichards]

Dave is Yogi? See, I asked about that Yogi and BooBoo thing ...

[wmanion]

Zerbie,
Your story needed sharing because it shows your heart and how you feel. I, do not call or classify myself as christian. It is a label and I am not Christ-like in anyway. I cannot live up to that standard no matter how hard I try and the closer I get, the farther away I know I am. I am just a person who believes there is a God and we all have purpose.
Unknowing at the age of nine you had all ready mastered one of he first concepts in the Bible. One that Jesus reinforced with love thy neighbor, love one another, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That concept that you mastered was brought forth in the Cain and Able story. Am I my brother's keeper?
We are responsible for each other, it is our responsibility to care, to love, to treat each other with respect. We are suppose to help the less fortunate and by you continuing with your activism despite the promise you didn't intend to keep what you were actually saying to your friend was..."you are worth something, you are worth something to me and as long as those people exist in the world that make you feel like you are nothing...I will not be silent...because of my love."
I admire you greatly. and I know that you will always strive to make a difference. I know I kind of combined two threads here and I apologize.

Hugz,
Bill

[sailaway58]

Zerbie,
I have no problem with your story, I threw a dig to U-Dog because I thought he could handle it, and he did.
Really, thanks for sharing your story.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Sailaway, If you have a list of people you wanna know about just PM me and I'll highlight the ones who are going to heaven and just scratch out the ones who won't be. I always like to be helpful whenever I can!!

I'm working on the list, better keep it PM though