Why Zerbie is not christian

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Dave is Yogi? See, I asked about that Yogi and BooBoo thing ...

I've seen your picture boy! If I'm Yogi ... you're Booboo!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

If you haven't you MUST!!! "Travelling Mercies" is a FANTASTIC book. How she wanders into a funky urban Presbyterian congregation and finds God and a lot of other stuff taboot. She is very very funny and filled with Grace. You would LOVE HER WRITING !!!

Nearly lost sight of this with all the furor going on around it.

No, I haven't heard of the author. Is it fiction? Fiction sort of isn't my thing, I haven't much patience fo invented stories. Non-fiction, otoh, tends to hold my attention better.

[Zerbie]

I'm glad I haven't done something wrong by telling all this. I was afraid I had.

Originally Posted by wmanion

Zerbie,
Your story needed sharing because it shows your heart and how you feel. I, do not call or classify myself as christian. It is a label and I am not Christ-like in anyway. I cannot live up to that standard no matter how hard I try and the closer I get, the farther away I know I am.

That's how I feel too!! Every time something inside me changes so I can be a better person, I see the road to "there" appearing even longer and more full of boulders. . .

We are responsible for each other, it is our responsibility to care, to love, to treat each other with respect. We are suppose to help the less fortunate


Yes! You are right! Your story on the other thread about the young man you helped blew my mind apart. I simply haven't got it in me to do that - I read it and kept thinking, "but I can barely take the slightest care of myself, how is it this amazing man can take care of an entire family AND a traumatized newcomer?"

and by you continuing with your activism despite the promise you didn't intend to keep what you were actually saying to your friend was..."you are worth something, you are worth something to me and as long as those people exist in the world that make you feel like you are nothing...I will not be silent...because of my love."

Hugz,
Bill

Hugs!

Finally figured out what you were referring to: the mentor who made me promise not to "throw away" my life with gay activism because people like him (gay people) "aren't worth it." All the while I was thinking "Of course you are, of course you are," so why couldn't I say it then? Well, he scared me. But what you've written above is nearly verbatim what I wrote in my diary that night. I valued him too much to stop speaking out for his fair treatment, even if he didn't think I should. It broke my heart to see such a good person speaking of himself that way. Other people taught him he wasn't worth it.

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Zerbie,
I have no problem with your story, I threw a dig to U-Dog because I thought he could handle it, and he did.
Really, thanks for sharing your story.

I'm glad I didn't upset you! Thanks, Sailor.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Since Antony asked.

I was not taken to churches as a small child. That is why the following incident relates my first and formative encounter with christianity.

I guess I was about 9 or so. The news was wrapping up on TV and I caught some of the talk about AIDS; it was my first time hearing about it. It was really obvious from the way the newscasters were speaking that it was considered an outsider's disease and that no one was expected to care because the disease "only affects homosexual men." I was horrified to discover the attitude among my fellow Americans that gay men should be left to die, and was on the verge of full-blown moral panic when a "christian leader" was interviewed.

As soon as they announced a religious leader would address the television audience, I completely relaxed again in my unshakeable faith that any spiritual leader will instruct the public that, whether we like someone or not, it's our spiritual duty to provide the life-saving care that is needed. With complete assurance I waited for him to say so. He began speaking about god and christianity, and to my everlasting horror he told the world that the disease was god's punishment to men for being homosexual.

I fell off the furniture in a screaming fit, calling for my parents and screaming "The reverend is a murderer! The reverend is a murderer!" When my mom got to me and discovered the source of my distress, she affirmed that homosexuals were getting exactly what they deserved. I begged her to try to save lives, but she looked at me like my face was rotting off and covered in maggots. Then she backed me into a corner and slapped me in the face repeatedly while screaming that homosexuals are sick and deserve to die and that I should never speak to anyone about the subject again.

Later that night I packed a bag, in case my parents asked me to leave the house (I underestimated their capacity for ignoring obvious crises for extended periods of time). I felt my parents oblivious to my existence, and I was morally horrified of them for condoning what the christian leader said. That night, I mentally severed all ties to my biological family.

Ultimately, that entire experience came to define christianity to me.
The genocidal language from the christian leader was horrifying enough. And genocide is one of the first things I think of when I hear the word "Christian."

But far, far worse was the denial of the nature of God -- lying to claim God a hate-filled monster. To do that to the indescribable Eternal Lord - - - - there are no words strong enough to tell how wrong that is. That blasphemy became the essence of what I understand Christianity to mean.

That is a powerful story Zerbie. Thank you for sharing it. I can understand how you came to feel the way you did about Christianity. I used to really love Christianity until I came out and then when the consequences of that decision rolled in, I too understood the dangers of the faith.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Nearly lost sight of this with all the furor going on around it.

No, I haven't heard of the author. Is it fiction? Fiction sort of isn't my thing, I haven't much patience fo invented stories. Non-fiction, otoh, tends to hold my attention better.

No, she writes about her own experience in a very light and delightful way. YOU WILL LOVE HER WRITING. No question in my mind. Anne Lamont might be your long lost sister.

[ladyinred]

Zerbie I don't blame you for your reaction, actually my mother would have the opposite reaction she would have been hostile to such people who called themselves Christians and told them to go to hell, when they tried to scare me as a child with hellfire and damnation, she was like a protective mother bear of her cub, she told them to stay away from me..

Your mother I'm sorry was wrong, think about the 12+million children who are orphaned in Africa,because of aids, did they deserve punnishment from God ? I've always said if aids was a gay disease the only gays would get it ,meaning that heterosexuals would be immune, which is obviously not the case. I've tried to let people see that like any disease, like cancer, or even getting stds , these diseases do not discriminate , anyone can get them. I wanted to show people that aids as a homosexual stigma was unjustified. And I've read about it quite a bit.

The preachers who are spewing hate and venom are not only liars, they leave people with the false and illusory idea that only gays get aids. What does that mean to some young heterosexual kid who doesn't know any better, decides he's immune and gets it? Who get hurt by their lies ?Everyone. Obviously over 12 million children can't be to blame for losing their families and homes and left orphaned. What kind of God would that be if we said those innocent children were incurring his wrath? The real monsters are the people who believe these hate filled preachers and take in their every word as if it came from God.

[Zerbie]

Actually, Lady, my mother's first words to me when she discovered me in a panic that night were, "Don't worry Zerbie, AIDS won't happen to you. Only bad people get it." I looked at her like she was off her rocker (my mom is highly educated and used to be quite liberal when I was a tot,) and then just broke down in tears. That was when she looked at me like I was maggoty and asked, "Oh -God! No! You're not - - - crying for the homosexuals - - - are you?!?!"

Oh what an awful evening.

It took her another decade-plus, but she got beyond that. In fact, a few months ago I told her about a new gay-rights project I'm involved with, and I practically fell off my chair when she replied with, "That sounds like quite a big project. Good luck! Let me know how it goes." (sound of a thud as Zerbie strikes the floor)

Given time - and *willingness* (willingness is key) - we all grow.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

That is a powerful story Zerbie. Thank you for sharing it. I can understand how you came to feel the way you did about Christianity. I used to really love Christianity until I came out and then when the consequences of that decision rolled in, I too understood the dangers of the faith.

Could you elaborate a bit further? What dangers?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Could you elaborate a bit further? What dangers?

Ya know? I don't how having faith in God could ever lead to a danger of thinking like Reverend Letthefaggotsdie.

I DO see that spending lots of time around people who think that way can become toxic. Thanks to that one evening, I spent all of my teens thinking something was wrong with me because I failed to want homosexuals dead.

[Steven E. Webster]

Zerbie,

In an ironic way, it seems to me like your rejection of Christianity--for very good reasons---is evidence of God's grace. Not to diminish one bit that it is evidence of the goodness at the heart of Zerbie.

I'm thankful for you Zerbie!

Steven Webster

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I've seen your picture boy! If I'm Yogi ... you're Booboo!

Dave, are you hitting on me?

And I'll add my two cents ... Zerbie, this is an important discussion, not at all an offensive one. I once read a book called Exit Interviews in which a series of people told their stories about why they left the church ... I started reading it with the expectation of criticizing the "leavers" for what I anticipated would be selfish or petty reasons for leaving. But the more I read, the madder I got at how STUPID we in the church can be, and how HORRIBLY we can treat people, all in the name of "truth." Another poignant book title asks, Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded? Those who have left, and those of us who have stayed, all need to be continually challenged on how we love and show God's love.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Dave, are you hitting on me?

Yogi and Booboo are NOT GAY!!

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Yogi and Booboo are NOT GAY!!

Thank God

[missmari]

all your stories are touching and I definitely sympathize with you Zerbie...my parents have the same way of thinking as yours, and it's sad....

I think like it has been stated before, religion today has definitely been stripped of its original purpose and meaning...and has lost its origiinal sense of function...that's not how christianity works...Christianity speaks of love thy neighbor, love thy enemies, love love love...and most of the christianity we see today, unfortunately, is so prejudging, prejudice, and incredulous...

as for the girl that came out as a lesbian and accepted her life and comitted herself to her lover, I want to follow in your footsteps!!! I am still stuck in a tough situation here...but you're right, I've stopped trying, because I too have begged God to help me stop, and sometimes you realize, you know what, it's not something to be afraid about...

I hope Zerbie that you meet wonderful Christian people in your life that will eventually demonstrate what Christianity is REALLY about, and how it should REALLY be portrayed...

Blessings to you all...

[ladyinred]

Zerbie I remember in my teens accepting my friend who was gay and thinking ,should I do this? It was natural but it was like I'd have second thoughts about whether I should do that? Must have been a shocker when your mother reacted the way she did when you were talking about your project,but somehow even if our parents do change, there are still those childhood memories. I can understand your negative reactions to Christianity especially with your early experiences. I think I can understand why some people turn atheists when they listen to so much negativity from the pulpit. I got mad at a guy for telling off an atheist and said," You drove them from the church!" I often feel that way about churches today,I haven't stepped in one for quite awhile.I'm almost afraid I'll pick up on the poison. I guess when you see bad examples of Christians behaving badly , you tend to lump them all as the same. Or it tends to color your perceptions of Christianity.

[Emproph]

Zerbie, there's so much here, and so many tid bits that I wanted to comment on that I'll never be able to get to, but most importantly I want you to know how moved I was by your story and that I appreciate your sharing it.

For as short and easy a read as that was, it was profoundly powerful. Thank you.

-Patrick

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by missmari

I hope Zerbie that you meet wonderful Christian people in your life that will eventually demonstrate what Christianity is REALLY about, and how it should REALLY be portrayed...

Blessings to you all...

She already has !!!! US !!!

[Zerbie]

Well, it was already a loaded subject before then. . . before I start, Emp, glad you "enjoyed" reading it - that screamfest was always the scene that played before my eyes when I said I was an atheist, for years and years. I expected everyone else to magically know that was why, because I assumed monstrous hatred and blasphemy was what EVERYONE saw in christianity. Therefore, anyone who was christian was *choosing* monstrousness. I guess I was too young to understand that one preacher did not speak for all, and by the time I was old enough, my assumptions had rigidified to defend me from the painful emotion. Feel free to toss some of your reactions out there without trying to perfect them - gut responses always welcome, darlin' E.

As for it being a loaded subject already:
My parents refused to take me to church when I was little because they had had experiences that they didn't like. Neither has gone to church since I was born except for weddings, etc. When I was small, I was always begging to go - there was a Catholic church barely 5 houses down the road and I would see people going and coming - and BEG to be taken to Sunday school and to the class thing on Weds afternoons. I was refused with the explanation that nuns were terrible people who would hurt me. When my dad was offered a job somewhere in the south I wanted him to take it but he declined on the basis that people who live in the south are terrible people because they expect their neighbors to go to church. I used to think: what can possibly be bad about church??

Then I saw that reverend on TV.

I went to Catholic services 3 times when my dad's (Roman Catholic) parents babysat and made me go with them, and was way too young to have any idea what was going on (like, 3, 4, 5). My main recollection was a sheer panic because I didn't know the "songs" (hymns) and why was I unprepared when everyone else knew the music? (early signs of budding musical professionalism?)

Other than that, I checked out a Presbyterian church once, a year or so after the TV incident, shortly before I decided to claim atheism. Had to work on my mom for months to get her to take me. The pastor, or whatever you call him, just talked about the social importance of having a church and I thought, how retarded. That has everything to do with the neighbors and nothing to do with God. It seemed obvious one would never learn to know God in a church, but the opposite happening in church seemed pretty well guaranteed.

Never went back to one until 2 years ago when I met a UCC pastor at a gay-oriented symposium and was blown away that a christian could have any kindness in him. After the symposium I went up to him and said, "But how can you know anything about love? You're a christian." A few days later I visited his church, had a pleasant time, but didn't feel any call to return. Another month or two later I discovered this Soulforce forum and met y'all. I don't regret avoiding churches, I'm glad I did. But I would be awfully lonely without you.

[ladyinred]

Zerbie, I personally have studied some of the Course in miracles which is based on Christianity but not fundamantalism,I've also looked into alternate spirituality .I'm just too turned off by fundamentalist Christianity. I've read books like God without religion, The laughing Jesus, have books on buddhism, sufism, and have also done innerbonding and am currently reading the "Dance of wounded souls. " My path has had to be one that focuses on healing because I have many childhood issues, especially with my dad being drunk and abusive. I could not turn to a traditional church for that because it would not help me in my own journey. I read alot of self help because it helps me.

I have friends who have been Wiccan, moslem, and buddhist. I do not want that mindset that condemns other people for their beliefs to going to hell,I think that is unloving. But at one time I guess I was pursuing religion. Not anymore,I'm more striving to heal old emotional wounds from childhood and dealing with life and spirituality as a process of growth. Why I am reading the dance is it deals with codependency and also spirituality in saying we are all one. Because of painful incidences in childhood I have to deal with that on an ongoing basis and challenge the status quo and old beliefs. What the dance says about bigotry such as that directed toward gay people is people need someone to look down on because it strokes their own egos. They have a need to feel superior or to see others as less than because they have no sense of balance and self esteem themselves. they cannot conceive of people being essentially equal and having inherent worth and being part of the divine that God created in his love. Because they have no concept of God being love.Nor can they conceive of divine love because the ego is antithetical to it. The lauging Jesus deals with gnosticism as opposed to literalism It does not treat the bible as the inerrant and infallible word of God.For example the old testament it says reflects the tribal god of the hasmonian jewsand their then nationalistic agenda. It does not even deal with the bible as a literal and historical book,it sees it more as allegorical.

Christianity from a gnostic perspective means we are all one and are part of the divine and of love, and that love is the only reality there is. I've read some of the lost gospels of Nag Hammadi as well as Jesus in India and some of the Tibetian gospels.Sadly in many ways it is religion that divides us. We've seen historically how religion has helped inspire inquisitions and wars and bloodshed and suffering.Is all religion all bad? No. Even the bible has beauty and inspiration in it. but what the authors of the laughing Jesus are suggesting is that we wake up to our own path to the truth within.We do not find it in externals; religion for example , but the indwelling spirit leads us .What I am learning Zerbie,nothing outside us can determine our worth,not even how others treat us. You have worth as a human being for just being alive and being you. Love is something we do not earn the right to have it is the essence of our beings.What brings you joy is unique to you.Follow your own path, your own truth within.Allow no one to sway you or convince you you are wrong.Always remember "you are the light of the world."

[pnggrad79]

Zerbie,
I remember when I was struggling with my lesbianism and I was on AOL at the time in a chat room. There was a guy whose screen name was homosexua
(no L at the end). So we got to talking and I, being a lesbian homophobe, (total paradox, but I hadn't come out to myself, yet. Still begging God to change me) began to preach to this poor guy. I quoted Scripture to him, I urged him to give up his aberrant lifestyle or he would get AIDS, which I was sure was God's punishment on gay people. He wrote me back and said he no longer would consider me a friend, and banned me from his chat room. It was at that moment that I was struck with the hypocrisy that I purveyed on this guy. I immediately prayed and asked forgiveness for being judgemental, and critical and God showed me that there were a few things about myself I needed to look at before bashing anyone else. Not 3 years later, I came out to myself, divorced my husband, and moved in with my girlfriend, who became my wife in 2004.
There is no question that religion harms but God loves. And people try to lump God into their religion, when He really has nothing to do with it. It is just religion and a hollow shell of something God really wants to show us, but we keep getting in the way.
Bless you Zerbie and you will always be my friend.