Sexual Orientations that Shift

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Those who have questioned what they were taught, or who somehow leap-frogged right over that lesson, are generally accepting and rather, what's the word? *neutral* in their reactions to gay people. And that reads as a much more natural way of being than the homophobic way. Whenever I was around homophobic persons, including semi-closeted, conflicted gays, I always felt awkward and uncomfortable with the issue. Once I met folks for whom it was a non-issue, suddenly the self-consciousness and awkwardness was gone from the room. Everyone was just living. Finally.

Zerbie,

You raise an interesting point. Can someone be "neutral" in the discussion of homosexuality? For me as an ex-gay I feel that homosexuality was wrong for me and I also think homosexuality may be wrong for other people. Which is why I think it is important to discuss sexuality as transitive, as a person’s sexuality if not set in stone but a person is capable to find themselves at different "sexual orientations" over time. Knowing there will always be people who are completely sexually attracted to either male or female and they may never have their orientation "shift."

Yet, many gay rights activist would argue with me that thinking a gay person can become straight is oppressive and discriminatory to gay people. Yet I think its oppressive to someone in my situation where were I "barred" from exploring a heterosexual orientation I feel I would be missing an aspect of my life that I now have.

Or in that case of some of my class mates they will make no distinction in their friends according to their sexuality yet they believe the sexual act between two people of the same gender is a sin.

I am not trying to cause an argument but I feel there maybe no neutral, as the "battle lines" have been drawn and the "trenches" have been dug so the only neutral people are the ones who "neutrality" lean in the favour of the "side" we are on.

Part of the solution may be mutual respect... something history seems to show is a pipe dream of those of us seeking the swords to be truly beaten into plowshares and we can live with our differences knowing we are different.

-Venari

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Yet, many gay rights activist would argue with me that thinking a gay person can become straight is oppressive and discriminatory to gay people. Yet I think its oppressive to someone in my situation where were I "barred" from exploring a heterosexual orientation I feel I would be missing an aspect of my life that I now have.

Venari, I would never stand in your way of falling in love with someone, regardless of what sex your special someone happens to be. If it's a faithful committed love, I rejoice and praise God! After all, there is too little love in the world.

Yet gay activists, myself included, do have real problems with most of the current ex-gay movement.

A new argument I've heard coming from fundamentalist Christians promoting ex-gay ministries is that opposing ex-gay ministries actually violates the civil rights of GLBT people who choose to enter into such a ministry. After all, if that is their choice then preventing them from doing so is wrong isn’t it?

There is a slight – oh so very slight – element of truth wrapped up in this. Perhaps just enough to distract people of good-will who hear it from the much bigger truths surrounding this whole thing.

Here is the big problem: same-sex attracted persons who enter into ex-gay ministries are not being presented with the pictures and stories of loving gay families, successful gay singles, bright young gay students, or supporting families. We hear this time and again from those who have come out of ex-gay ministries. I don't know if this is a sad consequence of the ex-gay leaders teaming up with the religious right in the past years or what. But withholding such important information and instead presenting the decadent section of the gay community as the gay community is deceitful. From a professional counseling position it is also very unethical. So to me, the question becomes this: If I persuade you with untruth and in my lying you choose to go in the direction I would have you go, is it still 100% your choice?

My conclusion: a choice for ex-gay ministries made in such an environment of untruth and half-truths combined with the threat of religious damnation is no choice at all.

Perhaps you are one of the lucky ones, Venari, and this has not been your experience. Somehow you got to the point in your journey of supporting GLBT rights.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Here is the big problem: same-sex attracted persons who enter into ex-gay ministries are not being presented with the pictures and stories of loving gay families, successful gay singles, bright young gay students, or supporting families.

...

But withholding such important information and instead presenting the decadent section of the gay community as the gay community is deceitful. From a professional counseling position it is also very unethical. So to me, the question becomes this: If I persuade you with untruth and in my lying you choose to go in the direction I would have you go, is it still 100% your choice?

My conclusion: a choice for ex-gay ministries made in such an environment of untruth and half-truths combined with the threat of religious damnation is no choice at all.

Jamie,

I do agree that some ex-gay ministries do used a high degree of manipulation. Yet I also think many opponents to ex-gay ministries also use a high degree of manipulation.

What becomes important is finding the truth that lies someplace in the middle and realizing that each extreme also holds part of the truth as well. But in finding the common truth you can reach to each side and help bring each closer to the truth.

With that as an illustration to my point, that its hard to find a people who are truly "neutral" in this discussion. But my point is the necessity for ourselves to become neutral, or find the truth in the middle, so we can better reconcile the extremes on either side.

-Venari

[Zerbie]

Venari:

I love the gay community. Passionately. I identify with it, emotionally. But it is not perfect, nor is it "unified." You bring up something I usually dare not discuss around other gay activist types, as it can be an emotionally triggering issue for many people.

I am not discussing neutrality now (that's another discussion, maybe later ) This is about formerly gay-identified people being "allowed" to explore the possibility of opposite-sex relationships.

Sexual orientation (gasp) does sometimes shift or change with time. I know for a fact that it has happened at least once (probably thousands of times). Saying so amounts to treading on the proverbially thin ice for a few reasons, none of which can be taken lightly. A great many people experience themselves as having a sexual/romantic orientation towards one sex or the other which remains fixed throughout their lifetime. They never experience a change or shift. So the people who DO experience genuine changes of that sort pose a kind of political "threat" to the 100-percenters, insofar as they are USED (willingly OR not) to persuade, suggest, and pressure others to attempt to change. (Ex-gay ministries/therapies)

MOST important is the matter of effort where feelings are concerned, especially feelings so innate and so powerful as the sexual arousal and the emotional awe one finds with falling in love/infatuation. If expression of your sexuality is going to change, *it will do so on its own*. And that is the point everyone misses. The existence of people who have once experienced a gay orientation and now do not, does NOT suggest that anyone else who is gay "should" try to likewise change! Effort will do nothing of any good for anyone. Effort is an exercise of the mind trying to seize control over the body's physiological responses, the heart's tendency to love, and the expression of the soul itself in the heart. It separates us from the real self, and in that condition, there is no knowing up from down, let alone the vastness of love.

That is why ex-gay ministries and therapies do a great disservice. Of COURSE people should be free to love whomever (adult and consenting) they wish. If you have always been attracted to one sex but wish to date someone of the other, there is no one stopping you! Ask someone out! LIVE your life - rather than sit around plotting the external characteristics of who you "should" love - know your soul and love who you DO love.

There is no outside expert on YOUR heart. You are the best expert on earth in that matter. No matter how many PhD's So n So has, YOU are the expert on your own heart, and So n So doesn't know what's in it as well as you do. So YOU do the living. Have the feelings you have. Know what ways of acting on them are consistent with your values, and act accordingly in the world. There is no need to hire an "expert." You are an adult, you are in charge of what you do in your personal relationships, and no one outside is going to give you any help that is not already available to you on the inside, whether by your own grace, or by the grace of the Lord.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

That is why ex-gay ministries and therapies do a great disservice. Of COURSE people should be free to love whomever (adult and consenting) they wish. If you have always been attracted to one sex but wish to date someone of the other, there is no one stopping you! Ask someone out! LIVE your life - rather than sit around plotting the external characteristics of who you "should" love - know your soul and love who you DO love.

I agree, the counselor I was seeing was a Christian and worked at a Christian counseling center, not an ex-gay ministry. I saw them for other reasons but they knew up front my being gay. But right off, from the get go, there was the understanding that issues of sexuality were not going to be discussed unless I brought them up first. So there was no pressure to become straight nor was there any condemnation for remaining gay.

Which is why I feel as a honest Christian when someone talked to me and is confused with their sexuality I will refer them back to that center not to an ex-gay ministry.

I hope this clarifies how my becoming "ex-gay" was not the "standard" path, but one where I was reassured I was fine as I was and the choice was mine to explore.

-Venari

[Zerbie]

Venari - I wish everyone had a therapist withOUT an agenda, as you did. Otherwise, it is not helpful to the client, probably detrimental. Sounds like your therapist was truly ethical, and drew out your strengths and your own self-knowledge. That's what it's supposed to be all about.

The therapist needs to put the *client* first - not their ideological viewpoint about homosexuality. The *client*. It is the person that matters most, always.

[SolInvictus]

Venari - having personally seen a Christian councelor in the past who tried to "convert" my sexual orientation to straight unsuccessfully, I have some difficulty in believing your story. I fought my sexual orientation, gay, for years, and ended up more conflicted and more distressed. My councelor suggested I become celebate so as not violate the local, conservative belief of a "one man, one woman" relationship only. If, indeed, your experience was nonbiased, then thats great and I apologize for being in error.

I must say I am now very happy with who I am - gay, as God made me - and to have found such happiness and peace. Being raised as a fundamentalist, I was terrified and afraid of "hellfire" before realizing that God is Love, and I would not want to serve as a deity concerned with such cruel judgement upon its believers.

Once the fear is brought down, peace and joy is possible.

To affirm & agree as others here have stated, no one is trying to make you be one orientation or another. Just don't be afraid to be who really are - gay, bisexual, or heterosexual. Self-discovery can be painful and difficult, esp. in the teens - 20s, and some confusion is to be expected.

Wish you peace on your journey.

[Jamie McDaniel]

This discussion emerged out of another thread and is now deserving of it's own thread.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

To affirm & agree as others here have stated, no one is trying to make you be one orientation or another. Just don't be afraid to be who really are - gay, bisexual, or heterosexual. Self-discovery can be painful and difficult, esp. in the teens - 20s, and some confusion is to be expected.

I will try to make this statement as clearly as possible, as some of my recent posts have been taken to mean something else, or contain some ulterior motive.

So many gay people speak against the ex-gay movement because of their experience with it, and because of the lack of sound scientific and psychological research as a basis for the ex-gay programs. That said, I'm not sure that gay people (or ex-ex-gays) are trying to influence anyone to be gay. Many of us know that there is no option for us; being gay is a given. HOWEVER, can the same be said of those who wish to see the ex-gay programs flourish? are these programs actually guilty of the very deed of which they accuse gays: recruitment?

and since the vast majority of people are heterosexual, it seems that there would be very little need for reparative therapy programs to be "recruiting."

if a person is truly happy being ex-gay, being straight, being gay, bisexual, and has come to that realization (notice I did not say "choice") and is at peace, then no one needs to question that person. I do reserve the right to question programs based on faulty research and questionable practices, as others should feel free to do as well.

[NathanATX]

Venari,
Thanks for all your insightful & interesting posts. I appreciate your contributions to these discussions.

If you truly to believe yourself to be heterosexual and are actually physically & emotionally attracted to women... and you no longer have any interest in men, then I say simply, wonderful. Love your life! Pursue being like Christ!

I do have grave concerns with the ramifications of your statement that you are an "ex gay."

Here are some things to consider: (Again these are only even a topic for conversation if you are truly 100% heterosexual. Otherwise, you are simply "trying" to change and the statement "ex gay" is in-authentic and misleading.)

• Perhaps your new-found heterosexuality is simply the hetero expression of your bisexuality
• Perhaps your venture into homosexuality was just a "curiosity detour" from an otherwise heterosexual life
• If you were gay/bi, consider that you are closer to the hetero side of Freudian's sexuality scale than the majority of gay people. In other words it is an injustice to use your personal example of "change" as a model for people who have a sexuality that is different than yours.

Though they're important, those are just ancillary concerns.

These are the things that I believe have the potential to cause great harm:

The "shoulds" that the "ex-gay" philosophy tries to impose on people.

• You "should" change. God doens't let gay people into heaven.
• You "should" change. "Look at me, I did."
• You "should" change. Your family won't accept you. Society won't accept you. Your church won't accept you.
• You "should" change. Gays are bad people, child molesters, perverts, drug addicts, diseased, etc.
• You "should" change. Gay people never have real & lasting relationships.
• You "should" change. You'll never get to have children.
• You "should" change. You'll never be peaceful or happy otherwise.
• You "should" change. You'll never have a great life.

There wouldn't be an "ex-gay" culture if these "shoulds" didn't exist.

Even if some gay & lesbian people are successful at enjoying opposite-sex relationships and ignoring their same-sex attraction, it doesn't mean that everyone can. More than likely it speaks to the person's latent bisexuality.

The whole basis for changing is where the greatest harm lies. The idea that gay & lesbian people are not good, loving, God-created people creates fear, self-loathing and causes other spiritual & emotional harm.

"Ex gay" ministries & therapists capitalize on the fact that gay & lesbian people have had these maligned theological ideas pummeled into them all their lives. Of course gay & lesbian people want to change, they've been "shoulded" on their entire lives. These ministries & therapists also meet a need that the homophobic church has: handle the gay problem. I think the relationship between these organizations and the church is very dark and sinister. I do acknowledge that a lot of good people on all sides are caught up in them.

Venari, if you have found yourself to be attracted to women and no longer attracted to men, wonderful. To use your experience as a way to impose another "should" on gay & lesbian people is inappropriate and unChristian.

I pray for your peace, joy & freedom. That you would delight in who you were created to be... gay, bisexual, or straight.

Blessings,
Nate
www.nateblack.us

[revtj]

I'm not sure I can be as generous as my colleagues regarding christian counselors and reparative therapies. You may recall reading on another post that my christian therapist told me that if I pursued my homosexual fantasies I would wind up in the gutter, in a world without God as a "reprobate".

I consider what he did to be the sin of binding my conscience which the epistles speak of in regard to eating meat sacrificed to pagan gods and attending pagan feasts. And, sit down 'cause here I go again, I consider what he did to me as violence.

He violated my innocent natural desires as a virgin teenage christian with his curse of 'reprobate.' He intensified guilt and fear and self-hatred, some of which I still deal with on a bad day.

The same thing happens constantly to LGBT & questioning people in what Hebrew Bible professor Ken Stone has called the "politics of abomination," in which a category of people are dehumanized with a biblical curse and abandoned to what, like my counselor said to me, is a well-deserved nasty, diseased violent fate.

The notion that somehow these therapists are having their rights violated is pure chutzpah to me. I pray constantly for the gay men caught in their web of deceit and destruction.

[Zerbie]

Hey TJ, your observations are completely accurate! That does happen, and too often.

I don't think any of us here actually DO approve of ex-gay therapies/ministries. Rather, we give our blessing to questioning individuals to, by all means, explore the possibility of fulfillment in opposite-sex relationships. Why on earth wouldn't we, right? You have to be sure of yourself before you can enter a deeply committed relationship with anyone else.

If you re-read my post from a while back, you'll see I go on for a long paragraph about how it's necessary to discover these things (sexuality/romance) on your own, without an agenda-toting therapist pressuring you with "shoulds" or threats. The problem is the idea that gays SHOULD change, and the existence of million dollar industries behind that premise. I had a personal run-in with an anti-gay psychiatrist, who pressured me into making a horrible choice I have regretted for YEARs (and cried about over and over for years), and incidentally, a choice which hurt another person, too. Lotta good that did, huh? So what I am saying, and what I understand the others here to be saying, is that any therapist one works with has to be ethical, without agenda, and deserving of the clients trust. That person can be hard to find!

As for reparative therapists, yes, I DO think they are doing harm, and I do wish they would change career tracks, all of 'em. Starting with a homophobic premise is going to do what that is good? Nothing I can think of. But to start with the premise that because your client feels same-sex attractions he is flawed? I can see a lotta harm coming from that one. Not to mention that it's logically absurd. Incidentally, there is a full time reparative therapist about 8 miles from my house, who does nothing but see self-loathing gay men 40 hours a week and try to "repair" them. Sometimes I wonder about those men when I'm wandering around the neighborhood - how are they doing? I hope they make it through life emotionally intact, etc. I wish I could give them all a hug, actually.

[keltic63]

again, I have to point out that it is not the gay community saying that someone has to be one thing or the other; indeed the glbt community is saying "so many of us have tried; we know it doesn't work." The damage that is done is far worse than any success story will tell you.
As Nathan shows us so eloquently, the reparative therapy groups tell people that they should and/or must change.
I know that as a gay man attempting live a straight life, I was miserable. Beyond being miserable, I became emotionally and physically ill. In the meantime, I hurt a perfectly respectable woman by marrying her, and hurt my 3 beautiful children by leaving the house. I am now much healthier, happier, and I'm a better father. I'm also a better partner, but this time, to a really great guy!

[SolInvictus]

Hey keltic,
your recent post is most inspiring and I agree w/ your statement. Trying to be something that a person is not (gay/bi person trying to be heterosexual for example), typically causes more pain & suffering = not less. Like you, I am happier than ever before, and, metaphorically speaking, wear my "coat of rainbow colors" proudly and with joy.

[NathanATX]

Here's a response to the above post about "ex gay" "ministries" that I received via email. My response is in bold.
**********************************************

Hi Nate,

Interesting post. It prompted me to ask some questions, and reply.

What am I?

A child of God.

As long as I can remember I have found girls beautiful, and attractive, but at times I have also found various guys attractive as well. I once read a book called "the midnight express" a true story of a guy in a Turkish prison. As I read his recollection of his first sexual encounter in prison with another man I got aroused. I have an intense natural curiosity, which many times and on many issues prompts me to imagine what something would be like. Any time I have imagined sex with another man, it was arrousing to me. Indeed, any time I imagine any sexual situation, (man woman or other)no matter how far from my range of experience or moral principals, it is arousing.

Am I straight, gay or bi-sexual, adulterer, deviant, pervert? (I truly believe I could have went any number of different directions if I had grew up under different circumstances.) Or am I just a person, born tainted with sin, whom the devil tries to distract from God's best with any and every trick at his disposal?

In the context of your sexual orientation on a Freudian scale, with a 1 being purely straight & a 10 being purely gay, my guess would be you’re probably a 4, 5, or 6. I personally am probably a 9.

Lust is pretty common with guys, I know I experience it. You get to choose whether to act on it or not. It doesn’t have anything to do with who you’re attracted to, but rather that you would put your physical & sexual desires above your concern for your fellow human beings. Lust invites you to ignore Jesus’ words to “love your neighbor as yourself.”

You are just a person. A child of God. In whom God delights. You were beautifully & wonderfully made.

I don't believe anybody is "100 percent heterosexual", nor do I believe anyone is "gay, or "bi-sexual". We are simply people. I hate labels. For one thing people are just too complex for them. (even among people calling themselves straight, the variety of what people find sexually attractive is huge, ranging from the benign to the grotesque). For another, they divide us, and make us feel as though we are unique in our struggles. The Bible says "there is no temptation that has taken you except that which is common to man" (we all face the same things). And third, they short circuit what God wants to do in our lives. The Bible says "as a man thinks in his heart so is he", when we accept a label we become that, and allow God to take us no further.

We are simply people. Labels are often used to divide people. White from Black. Christian from Muslim. Gay from straight. Maybe someday words like these will simply be little asides or afterthoughts and not carry the weight of separation they usually have. We can be responsible for the way we use labels by acknowledging that they don’t really mean anything. They aren’t “true” in the sense that they really matter. Labels are non-issues.

If we see a brown chair and we call it a brown chair, that label is just our way to communicate “that’s a brown chair.” Or “that’s a gay person.” Or “I’m straight.” Ok, that’s nice.  It’s a non-issue.

About the "should change"s you mentioned. I would like to point out that. 1)The Christian faith is truly predicated on the supposition that we can not change. If we could change, we would not need Jesus. We are not so much commanded to change our lives as we are to change our minds (whcih is what repent means), agreeing that we need change, and only He can do it. He assumes the responsibility for the changes needed in our lives. The Bible says"it is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Jesus did tell the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more", but He also told Lazarus (dead and beginning to rot) to "come forth". When He commands, He also empowers. "2) the Bible also says" no liar" will enter Heaven. When we give our lives to Christ we come into covenant with Him we cease to be all "the labels"and become "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus" (God's label for us.)

I believe the essence of the Christian faith is that we are perfect, whole & complete, just as we are. But we tend to forget that. And when we forget that, we do things that are less than loving…to ourselves and to others. I believe Jesus came to remind us of God’s constant & limitless love for us. We fulfill God’s purpose for our lives when we live out the awareness of His love for us in everything we say and do.

And for gay, lesbian, & bisexual people that means honoring that you have been created with a God-given sexuality that is different than many people. It’s not something to be afraid or ashamed of. We are still called to “Love God with all our heart, soul, mind & strength” and to “Love our neighbor as ourselves.”

[awediot]

Are there those who have been somehow forced, or nurtured in to believing that they are gay, but actually are not? Could a straight person so identify with the gay community for some reason, that a little actually does rub off, and their 'guilt by association' paves the way to a confusing experimentation the community automatically reads as coming out, locking the persons identity in with their enthusiasm?

I would in no way condone the 'change or burn' philosophy described. I went through more than enough of those thoughts and useless prayers to know the pain they cause. I also have run across a few rare individuals who sincerely seemed stuck in thier gay identity. All their associations were gay oriented more out of history and routine, than passion. They had an attraction to the opposite sex, expected to have kids and seemed to be more playing gay,biding their time, but rightly feared an opposite condemnation if they came out as straight.

This understandably represents a sensitive undercut to many gays who have fought so hard to be accepted. The form of therapy it may take to shift one back certainly ought not be demeaning to anybody. But such cases must exist. We hear from those individuals everyday and attribute reasons for their feelings to make us feel more comfortable, not them. I for one pray for the clearest path for them, which ever they see God has put them on. That comes first, joy comes later.

[revtj]

This is just a post to acknowledge how much pain I have read in the stories on this thread (and others). How many of us have cried, hurt ourselves or others thinking we were doing what God required of us!

I just have to take a minute and acknowledge that because, collectively, it is overwhelming.

It reminded me of a beautiful sermon I heard on the similarities of the struggle between African Americans and LGBT peoples (preached by Horace Griffin) using Psalm 56. In these key verses, the psalmist appeals to YHWH:

You have taken account of my wanderings;
Put my tears in Your bottle
Are they not in Your book?

Lovers of God, know today that every tear, like every sparrow and the grains of sand on the beach, like the lillies of the field, is known to God and is neither forgotten nor wasted. Amen.

[MamimiFista]

This may sound a little harsh but I don't believe that one can be "ex-gay". I say this because I was "ex-gay" for years and am now ex-ex-gay. I tried to be straight... but that just does not work. I know that sexual orientation is something that you can NOT change. You are who you are and God loves you either way - deal with it!

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Venari

Zerbie,

You raise an interesting point. Can someone be "neutral" in the discussion of homosexuality? For me as an ex-gay I feel that homosexuality was wrong for me and I also think homosexuality may be wrong for other people.

-Venari

This begs the question, If you believe that homosexiality was wrong for you...okay. If you feel it may be wrong for others...okay....do you feel it is ever just right for some?

For me, I tried to be straight, and ex-gay. It was wrong for me, it was lonely and my life was void.

Mel White, the founder fo Soulforce spent upwards of $10,000 in therpy and prayer. He is still gay, but now happy. Is it possible homosezulity is for some people?

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by MamimiFista

This may sound a little harsh but I don't believe that one can be "ex-gay". I say this because I was "ex-gay" for years and am now ex-ex-gay. I tried to be straight... but that just does not work. I know that sexual orientation is something that you can NOT change. You are who you are and God loves you either way - deal with it!

It didn't work for you, but it does seem to work for some. We cannot discount those who truly feel they are no longer gay. We must leave room for all to have their beliefs and learn to be tolerant and accepting of those beliefs. It is only their actions we should attack when they are unjust.

MLK's principles of nonviolence:
This method is that the attack is directed against forces of evil rather than against persons who are caught in those forces. It is evil we are seeking to defeat, not the persons victimized by evil. Those of us who struggle against racial injustice must come to see that the basic tension is not between races. As I like to say to the people in Montgomery, Alabama: "The tension in this city is not between white people and Negro people. The tension is at bottom between justice and injustice, between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. And if there is a victory it will be a victory not merely for 50,000 Negroes, but a victory for justice and the forces of light. We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may happen to be unjust."