Sexual Orientations that Shift

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Venari

I agree, the counselor I was seeing was a Christian and worked at a Christian counseling center, not an ex-gay ministry. I saw them for other reasons but they knew up front my being gay. But right off, from the get go, there was the understanding that issues of sexuality were not going to be discussed unless I brought them up first. So there was no pressure to become straight nor was there any condemnation for remaining gay.

Which is why I feel as a honest Christian when someone talked to me and is confused with their sexuality I will refer them back to that center not to an ex-gay ministry.

I hope this clarifies how my becoming "ex-gay" was not the "standard" path, but one where I was reassured I was fine as I was and the choice was mine to explore.

-Venari

'

I always get baffled by this.....if you are no longer gay than that would make you straight....no? If our straight and fit in with the rest of the majority than good for you. Why does that mean you need to be so oppressing to those of us who have remained, and are happy being gay?

[Eugene]

It didn't work for you, but it does seem to work for some. We cannot discount those who truly feel they are no longer gay. We must leave room for all to have their beliefs and learn to be tolerant and accepting of those beliefs.

Tolerant, maybe. Accepting, no. Grant the ex-gay mythology equal status with psychology and you can kiss your gay rights goodbye.

[kara speltz]

I've found this discussion very interesting. I think too often, we all have absolutes that we tend to think apply to everyone. Up until the week I was on the Equality Ride, I would have told you there was no such thing as an ex-gay. But while we were in Abilene, an exciting thing happened to me, I was able to see one woman's truth and not feel the necessity to negate her truth. Sally is an ex-gay teacher at Abileen Christian University. As I talked with her, I asked some very pointed questions about did she ever wonder if she was bisexual and just repressing her gay urges. The other question I asked was, was she currently dating any men. I had a number of questions and didn't at first accept her as exgay.

However, after really listening to her story, I could see that for her being a lesbian had interfered with her relationship with God. My definition of sin is anything that separates us from God and one another. So I was able to hear Sally's story and celebrate that as an "avowed heterosexual," she was happier and more at peace. I asked her to try and comprehend that my being a lesbian had not separated me from God, but to the contrary had made me much more dependent on God. Thus there was no need of healing. She wasn't able to verbally acknowledge that, but I do believe that somewhere in her heart she thought that it could be true.

All of this is to say that what is my truth, may not be another person's truth and we all need to acknowledge that our creator has a very distinct and individual relationship with each and every one of us. To suggest that we all have the same path denies the diversity God has created within all of us.

It is hard enough to be clear about where God is leading us in our own lives, who are we to have the arrogance to think we know what another human being's path is?

kara

[Zerbie]

Thank you Kara.

What one person needs might be very different from what another needs. And the individual persons MUST matter more than ideology. What worth is an idea if it does not serve the human being?

[Eugene]

And the individual persons MUST matter more than ideology.

Well, science (and theology, for that matter) is impersonal. And the real worth of an idea is in its truth, not its service to a person or an agenda.

People are subject to all kinds of self-deception, ignorance, and misunderstanding of themselves. Which is why I think a scientific ideology is to be preferred over sentimental acceptance of various odd and conflicting experiences.

[Zerbie]

Do not dismiss humanity as mere "sentimentality."

I used to value ideology, right, and truth above human experience, and have learned with experience that it is a disservice. It took decades to learn.

Ideas are just ideas. Thoughts.

Without valuing the human heart first ideas are, well, heartless. Once you get into issues of sexuality, love, romance, and emotion, the paths we follow differ. There is not one universal way of feeling and interpreting.

[Eugene]

I used to value ideology, right, and truth above human experience, and have learned with experience that it is a disservice. It took decades to learn.

I too valued ideology, right, and truth above human experience for decades. I still do, with the difference that I have re-evaluated and refined -- not discarded -- those values.

If I had believed that being gay required accepting anything and everything as of equal value or legitimacy, I would have remained closeted and evangelical. And if I ever become convinced that being gay requires abandoning absolutes, I'll go back in the closet.

[Rick336]

Joe Brummer says:

We cannot discount those who truly feel they are no longer gay. We must leave room for all to have their beliefs and learn to be tolerant and accepting of those beliefs. It is only their actions we should attack when they are unjust.

To berate somebody who is ex-gay would show disrespect which is wrong. But I'm not sure what you mean by "discount". I feel that with most ex-gays the real problem is low self-esteem, not sexual orientation. It's not a matter of being intolerant or unaccepting. It's just a matter of expressing what I believe to be true.

I'm not saying that all ex-gays are unhappy. But I do believe that shame drives most ex-gays to seek change. Shame is a symptom of low self-esteem and how someone views their self worth. With many ex-gays, instead of improving their self-esteem, they try to change their inborn sexual orientation. This creates more problems than it solves.

Rick

[BruceChris]

Well, From what I can see here, this subject has been pretty much talked out, although I would suspect that very few minds have been changed. Hey, I have read some very thoughtful and caring posts here. Way to go, guys. From my experience, orientations are fixed for most of us, variable for some, but almost entirely unchangeable from the outside or the inside for most of us. It changes over time for some of us, but this is not something we chose or can control. We don't chose our orientation, it choses us. The important thing is for each of us to love and respect each other, and you shouldn't try to argue with a homophobe, if you have any serious expectations. However, I did find an article written by Patricia Nell Warren that explores the subject, and covers most of the bases on "Whosoever". You can find it at
www.whosoever.org/v2Issue2/warren.html

Peace and Love, BruceChris

[Zerbie]

Well, what the heck. Let's bump this, since we are having a related conversation on the 'general discussion' page.

Nice summary, Chris. (Belated recognition, huh?)

[ladyinred]

Zerbie now I'm confused didn't the guy (Venari)who said he turned heterosexual turn out to be a closeted gay after all?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by ladyinred

Zerbie now I'm confused didn't the guy (Venari)who said he turned heterosexual turn out to be a closeted gay after all?

I think that was the commonly made assumption. It may or not be correct.

I thought the thread deserved a bump because some of those who replied with their thoughts/experiences regarding ex-gay programs had valuable perspective to share, so I wanted it near the top of the page - since we have a poster asking about the subject, generally.

[antonyh]

I've been thinking about the ex-gay movement quite a bit recently based on the discussion we were having about MLK, the loss of the Hate Crimes Bill in Conference and the lack of a strong, cohesive LGBT community. Here is an excerpt from that discussion:

"The first step to any effective civil rights activity is the necessity for oppressed people to embrace their full dignity as human beings. This was necessary in the African American community as well. King wrote in an article titled "Our Struggle":

Originally Posted by MLK

In time many Negros lost faith in themselves and came to believe that perhaps they really were what they had been told they were -- something less than men. So long as they were prepared to accept this role, racial peace could be maintained. It was an uneasy peace in which the Negro was forced to accept patiently injustice, insult, injury and exploitation.

Gradually the Negro masses in the South began to reevaluate themselves -- a process that was to change the nature of the Negro community and doom the social patters of the South. We discovered that we had never really smothered our self-respect and that we could not be at one with ourselves without asserting it. From this point on, the South's terrible peace was rapidly undermined by the Negro's new and courageous thinking and his ever-increasing readiness to organize and to act...

Is the ex-gay movement an insidious form of psychological warfare by the Christian Right to keep LGBT people in a perpetual state of shame and confusion? As long as we are subjugated to our shame and self loathing, as long as we have "lost faith in ourselves", as long as we feel that we are "less than men", we will never cohere into the kind of movement that parallels the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

It is really a brilliant strategy on the part of the Christian Right. Let's not just attack LGBT people in the political arena, but let's attack them psychologically so that they cannot cohere into a movement that will achieve equality. You have the Peter LaBarbera's of the world painting us as perverts unworthy of any sort of dignity or equality. You have ex-gay groups like Love Won Out "helping" those plagued with "same-sex" attraction recover traditional male and female roles. These "ex-gays" brand homosexuality as a disease and condemns it as a threat to the family, the health of the nation, and Christianity. To all those trapped in the system of shame...well there is hope..."you can change".

Maybe it is not a strategy...just a bunch of loving Christians helping us fit in with the new theocratic kingdom they are ushering in. James Dobson, founder of Love Won Out, does participate in secret meetings at the Council for National Policy. The Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University considers the Council for National Policy a leading force in the Dominionist movement. TheocracyWatch, a CRESP project, describes it as "an umbrella organization of right-wing leaders who gather regularly to plot strategy, share ideas and fund causes and candidates to advance the theocratic agenda."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council...ational_Policy

Who knows...but it is a different way to think about the ex-gay movement.

Update:

I found this information from Southern Poverty Law Center's interview with Casey Sanchez.

Originally Posted by SPL

Since you left in 1990, the ex-gay movement has become much more political, hiring lobbyists and meeting with lawmakers. How did this come about?

Around 1997, the ex-gay movement started to get funding from Focus on the Family [a huge Christian Right group led by James Dobson and based in Colorado Springs, Colo.] and from what I'll call other fundamentalist Christian organizations. Exodus International began receiving a lot of their funding from these organizations. As a result, [the ex-gay groups] began to tell a different story. Ex-gays became a vital part of the battle against gay and lesbian civil rights in society.

At the Exodus Revolution ex-gay conference this summer, you saw a speech by Michael Brown in which he encouraged people to "give up their lives" in the fight against homosexuality. What do you think of that?

When you have a keynote speaker like Michael Brown, to me that's unacceptable. It's preaching a message of Christians not just simply opposing gay civil rights and believing a spiritual revival is necessary for this country, but actually calling on Christians to lay down their lives in a spiritual revolution to set up civil laws based on one extreme interpretation of biblical laws from the Old Testament [that calls for the death penalty for homosexuals]. It's Christian Reconstructionism [a doctrine that calls for imposing harsh Old Testament laws on civil society], Christian dominionism. It's abhorrent, and it's dangerous, not just for LGBT people but for our entire society. Because if civil laws are based on [Brown]'s interpretation of the Bible, it's not going to be a democratic society.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intel...le.jsp?aid=847

[ladyinred]

Zerbie from what I read on his posts he was the ex boyfriend of a soulforce member,Please correct me if I am worng or misunderstood. But take the case of James Stabile, who claimed he was instantly cured of his homosexual desires only to be ushered off into exgay therapy.If cured as he said why would there have been a need for ex gay therapy in the first place?(Of course he was later kicked out for lying)Something smells rotten about this big time. And it doesn't help when people lie and claim they are cured, it really does a big dis-service to the rest of the gay community. If someone is truly cured so be it... But I still have huge doubts about "cures." Of course if someone is convinced he must change his or her orientation, what can you do? I guess warn them about the potential negative effects, but the decision is ultimately theirs. I guess all Soul Force can really do is educate people about the potential harm that exgay therapy can do, but they can't make other people's decisions for them, you can only wish them the best and hope if that is the decision they ultimately make it doesn't backfire on them..

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by awediot

Are there those who have been somehow forced, or nurtured in to believing that they are gay, but actually are not? Could a straight person so identify with the gay community for some reason, that a little actually does rub off, and their 'guilt by association' paves the way to a confusing experimentation the community automatically reads as coming out, locking the persons identity in with their enthusiasm?

I went through that when I was coming out. Could I just be identifying with gay people? Could I not really be gay? Could I just be curious? I mean, what gay person does not?

The hallelulia happened to me when I talked to a young lesbian one night at the bar and she leaned over and kissed me and said "happy coming out ". At this point, I KNEW that I was gay because NO MAN EVER made me feel that way with a simple kiss on the lips. It felt to me like I had come home and was right where I belonged. I had not had anything to drink at that time so it was not alcohol. I realized that all the times I felt hardly no desire for men sexualy that it was not due to a lack of sex drive, because I did actually enjoy sex physically with men at times. It was not the holy experience of body and soul I had when I was with a woman. It in no way compaired, it was not just sex. I actually felt ONE with another person.

I think if you are truly gay, you find out and you KNOW IT when you are with your sex. If you are bisexual, you feel that complete with BOTH sexes. If you are straight, you realize that it feels complete with the oposite sex.

Even though I identify as lesbian, I still find some really toned mens bodies attractive and beautiful, like a fine work of art. However, I have NO desire to have sex with them. I am perfectly happy with looking at them, like a Pacasso.

[inca nitta]

I've been going through this thread, and I found that this guy Venari is quite a character! He was vigorously promoting exgay/reparative therapy and criticizing Soulforce, here, which I find to be kind of strange, given the fact that it's a LGBT forum. Besides, he got huge issue about his own anger.

So, it looks like that he got discplined by his school, simply because he was posting on Soulforce forums? This is pretty sad. I certainly wouldn't wish anybody else to get in trouble at their respective work/school, merely for posting on this board.

As for Venari, I hope he didn't get expelled from his school.

[Zerbie]

See, I had second thoughts about bumping this thread and it seems I was right to have them. I only bumped this because someone asked a question recently about 'ex-gays' and about people who say they've 'changed,' and this thread has some wonderful responses to that subject from various people. I hoped it would not exhume the unfortunate things that happened regarding one poster. But since that has been exhumed, yes, the entire incident was terribly unfortunate.

[Zerbie]

At risk of drudging up the attendant conversations about a certain individual poster here (and hoping that this time we can avoid speculation about him,) let's bump this discussion once again.

We have a poster who raised the subject of ex gay pursuits earlier today, and many people weighed in, early on this thread, with valuable insights and reflections.

So, Jason, this conversation is bumped for you to read through. Hope some of the things talked about here are helpful.

[BrianB]

Thanks, Zerbie, for bumping this thread up. It has given me some things to consider. I have wrestled in the past with the question of whether I'm bi' in transition, gay, straight but curious, or truly bi'. Now, I don't worry so much about a label. My attraction for the same or opposite sex does shift from time to time. I understand that for many of you there is no shift. That's okay too! We are all unique human beings.

As for reparitive therapy it is coercion and brain-washing in most cases. I'm thankful to have avoided such therapy.

[gregis9]

As someone who has tried Christian therapies, ex-gay ministries, ex-gay groups, affirmative LGB therapy, and self psychology, I must say there is a difference in each therapeutic approach. In a Christian environment, just being gay is often considered a sin which heavily impacts what is brought up in therapy. A person is therefore somewhat influenced by their "therapist" to present as uncomfortable with their sexuality. Of course ex-gay methodologies are extremely anti-gay and not much is debatable there.
As for affirmative therapy and self psychology approaches, the oppressive belief systems are managed instead of internalized. Therapy includes validating that of course you are uncomfortable with you sexuality, just look at your culture!
I am currently conducting my doctoral dissertation on helping individuals recover from ex-gay harm. I am interested in hearing from ex-gay survivors what were helpful therapeutic events after you gave up on reparative therapy.