"Christianist" commits hate crime

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

Andrew Sullivan has invented the word "Christianist" to refer to "Christian extremists"--analogous to the way the word "Islamist" is used to denote Islamic extremists.

Anyway, here's a link to Andrew Sullivan on a recent anti-gay hate crime committed in the name of Christianity in the Houston area:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...ianist-te.html

Steven Webster

[u-dog]

In the strictest sense... is this REALLY a hate crime? this man is obviously, mentally ill. He believes that he is the prophet Elijah and he has "visitations" from God telling him to kill people.

I know that his insanity draws its energy from the societal hatred of GLBT people but the killing was really driven by his mental illness.

[rainbow7]

Sadly, it is a story we've heard too often.....and it is startling, how some people truely seem to believe that God calls them to hate and destroy. It seems more abominable than the bigots who when asked why they did it, leave God out of it and take "credit" for it themselves. I'm reminded of a button a given to me by a friend ...sadly, I never get to wear it, but it cracks me up:

"Are we talking about the same God? because yours sounds like kind of a
*%#=!

I had not heard the word "christianist" used in this way, but then I don't know everything and I don't spend as much time listening to the news as some people I know.....it depresses me if I listen too much! My first reaction to the word is that it's confusing. In spite of the way "Islamist" is commonly used, my mind went to racist/ sexist/ heterosexist/ ageist/ classist, etc. and I imagined the word being used by right-wing crazy people to assert that liberals and godless secular humanists discriminate against them just because they love Jesus. But then it's only 6:25 and I'm on my first cup of coffee, so maybe my association makes no sense and neither do I......time to go to the gym!

Polly

[rainbow7]

Originally Posted by u-dog

In the strictest sense... is this REALLY a hate crime? this man is obviously, mentally ill. He believes that he is the prophet Elijah and he has "visitations" from God telling him to kill people.

I know that his insanity draws its energy from the societal hatred of GLBT people but the killing was really driven by his mental illness.

Probably, but it could be argued that the huge palette available to him to express his hideously distorted belief system is fed by the climate of hatred that seems to pervade some right-wing religious groups. On the other hand, is it possible that SOME who are closer in their "walk" to becoming self-aware and understanding that their hatred is driven by fear (and we do see this on a regular basis, people having conversion experiences that strangely warm their hearts and turn their minds to the LEFT) ...is it possible that reporting the man's justification for his actions results in a teachable moment for some conservative who reads the story and concludes, "well I don't much like gay people, either, and I don't approve of them, but.....I wouldn't go so far as to KILL one.....so maybe I should rethink my position ...??"

The Spirit moves in mysterious ways --

Polly

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by u-dog

In the strictest sense... is this REALLY a hate crime? this man is obviously, mentally ill. He believes that he is the prophet Elijah and he has "visitations" from God telling him to kill people.

I know that his insanity draws its energy from the societal hatred of GLBT people but the killing was really driven by his mental illness.

I would say that this WAS a hate crime. It can be a hate crime (which is a crime where the victim was selected because of their race, orientation, religion etc.) and yet the murderer might be found "innocent by reason of mental defect" or is there even a verdict of "guilty, but insane?" Different states have different standards for "insanity defenses."

There's a sense in which most murders are "crazy," but not every such case can be proven "legally insane." Did this man know that there is a law against murder? Did he have the ability to conform his behavior to the law? A person could have alot of crazy ideas like "homosexuality is an abomination to God," but still be legally sane. We probably can't tell from a newspaper account.

Steven Webster

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

I would say that this WAS a hate crime. It can be a hate crime (which is a crime where the victim was selected because of their race, orientation, religion etc.) and yet the murderer might be found "innocent by reason of mental defect" or is there even a verdict of "guilty, but insane?" Different states have different standards for "insanity defenses."

There's a sense in which most murders are "crazy," but not every such case can be proven "legally insane." Did this man know that there is a law against murder? Did he have the ability to conform his behavior to the law? A person could have alot of crazy ideas like "homosexuality is an abomination to God," but still be legally sane. We probably can't tell from a newspaper account.

Steven Webster

I guess I asked the question NOT just about this particular Loonie-tune and this particular crime. Now that you respond, I realize that my real question is philosophical. I'm not really that interested in the differing legal standards for insanity defenses but rather in getting at the question of:

Are bias crimes or hate crimes really crimes of the individual? or are they societal crimes. A sane individual might decide to kill a gay or lesbian person because they have convinced themselves that such persons are so despicable and subhuman that killing them doesn't, MORALLY, amount to murder, even if it does conform LEGALLY to the definition of murder. This is a hate crime, pure and simple.

But if a truly crazy person draws from the emotionally poisoned, societal well of homophobia (socially sanctioned hatred) and then kills a GLBT person, is that an individual hate-crime in the same pure and simple sense? Or is it merely a single manifestation of a SOCIAL Crime that the whole society partipates in?

In other words is homophobia at the cultural (as opposed to the individual level) itself a hate-crime. Do Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, et al bear moral culpability for this crime as much as the crazy individual himself?

Just a question.

PS: Steven, have I ever told you that I LOVE the way your mind works? You are so thorough and methodical in your thinking and so sincere and committed in your passion for justice. I really admire that about you. Thanks for being one of the regulars around here!!

[Gennee]

We have to pray for Mr. Mangum. If he really knew what God desires: mercy, love , justice, and forgiveness he would have shared the gospel with this man. Fear and hate never brought anybody to Jesus.

Gennee

[paul]

Interesting this guy should pick Elijah.

I suspect if Elijah were here today and were to do the things attributed to him in the bible, he too would be accused of hate crimes and insanity. And how about that guy Elisha? Calling on some bears to rip teenagers apart for calling him baldy.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

Interesting this guy should pick Elijah.

I suspect if Elijah were here today and were to do the things attributed to him in the bible, he too would be accused of hate crimes and insanity. And how about that guy Elisha? Calling on some bears to rip teenagers apart for calling him baldy.

You... you... you..... CANNANITE LOVER !!!! Those Ba'alist priests deserved what they got!!!

[paul]

Originally Posted by u-dog

You... you... you..... CANNANITE LOVER !!!! Those Ba'alist priests deserved what they got!!!

No doubt u-dog. I hear many of them were gay. Abomination!

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

No doubt u-dog. I hear many of them were gay. Abomination!

Well, Duh! How else were they supposed to get Ba'al and Ashtarte horny enough to mate and make the crops and animals fertile? Nothing gets a god horny like watching gay sex... or straight sex...

[BrentRichards]

I'd have to say jury is out on whether I'm giving this guy a mental illness pass ... not clear from the story whether he is genuinely deluded or just speaking in spiritual language. The last line of the article is:

"It's not that I'm a bad dude," he said, expressing concern that people might view him as "strange." Pausing briefly, he said, "I love God."

That he knows his behavior might be viewed as odd or bad suggests an insight not always present in the truly delusional. Just a thought.

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

Andrew Sullivan had a couple of more posts on the Magnum hate-crime case:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...ianist--1.html

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...ianist--2.html

Andrew airs some of the disagreements/agreements among his readers. The second item has interesting information about the "Elijah" claim. It points out that the man might not be so much "crazy" as expressing a particular brand of Fundamentalist "End Times" theology (which is kind of "crazy" when you think about it).

Steven Webster

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

I would say that this WAS a hate crime. It can be a hate crime (which is a crime where the victim was selected because of their race, orientation, religion etc.) and yet the murderer might be found "innocent by reason of mental defect" or is there even a verdict of "guilty, but insane?" Different states have different standards for "insanity defenses."

There's a sense in which most murders are "crazy," but not every such case can be proven "legally insane." Did this man know that there is a law against murder? Did he have the ability to conform his behavior to the law? A person could have alot of crazy ideas like "homosexuality is an abomination to God," but still be legally sane. We probably can't tell from a newspaper account.

Steven Webster

I agree. Definitely a hate crime.

I linked to Soulforce's press release from Hatecrimesbill.org

http://www.hatecrimesbill.org/2007/0...rce-issue.html

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by Gennee

We have to pray for Mr. Mangum. If he really knew what God desires: mercy, love , justice, and forgiveness he would have shared the gospel with this man. Fear and hate never brought anybody to Jesus.

Gennee

Most fundies believe they ARE showing the LOVE of God by doing exactly what my family does to me:

1. Refuse to let their children around me.
2. Will not let me bring my wife home for Christmas, Thanksgiving, 4th of July, etc...
3. Said that my children were tainted and if they succeeded in life, that it would be in spite of me, not because of me.
4. said that if I continued to live in sin, that I would go to hell.


Ladies and gentlemen! Let me introduce to you, THE LOVE OF GOD....

These people have taken it upon themselves to be the Voice of God, the Mind of God and have literally shoved God out of the way and inserted their own fear, hatred and prejudice.

It is appalling to me that this happened but here in Houston? I know where EJ's is and I have friends who go to that bar. I shudder to think that one of my friends could be the next victim of some freak thinking God told him to kill a homo. Yeech!!!

[seifer_boy]

Wow, I hadn't heard about this on the news here. I also read the Houston Chronicle, but it may not have been in the Sunday issue. Or if it was, I didn't notice it, and I always read the titles of the headlines. That is so close to where I live too.