Religion/Spirituality

[keltic63]

I was looking at some funny bumper stickers online and I just found this one:

"Religion is for people afraid of going to hell; Spirituality is for those who have been there"

It struck me as a fair assessment of the stories of our own journeys. So many of us were "religious" before our crises, which for most of us seems to be our coming out. As we move beyond that, we find compassion for others, as well as a deep and growing spirituality that moves far beyond mere religion.

Just thought I'd put that out there. Any comments?

[paul]

Keltic,


I like the sentiment of that bumper sticker, but not sure about it's real content. I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is?

As to your take. I have found it a bigger crises in my life to be in the closet, though coming out has been one as well. I agree with you wholeheartedly that our experiences can serve to give us sympathy and compassion. It's like turning poison into wine.





my favorite bumper sticker to date is:

"God is coming soon, and is She mad!"

[Daniel]

"Religion is for people afraid of going to hell; Spirituality is for those who have been there"

This sticker resonates with me. That was my journey. My own sense is that one goes from being asleep to waking up. Pain does that. It gets your attention. It can also help us realize that everyone wants the same thing: happiness.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Daniel

This sticker resonates with me. That was my journey. My own sense is that one goes from being asleep to waking up. Pain does that. It gets your attention. It can also help us realize that everyone wants the same thing: happiness.

I don't know that I could have the happiness I now have, without having the pain that I've endured. When people take the time to talk to me about my experience, I eventually get around to saying something like "very little frightens me now; I've faced my biggest fear and survived. There isn't much left that would hurt me now." Which is not to say that I don't worry about things, I do plenty of that, but I now have strength that I did not have before. I know that if things get tough, I have the resources and tools to make it through. Religion doesn't do that for me, spirituality does.

[elcharrom]

It speaks the truth, because religion is something so empty, being religious almost sounds as if you have to go to church, or you have to obey His laws, as if it is something you do because of fear, instead of wanting to do it beacuse of the love for God.

[elcharrom]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I don't know that I could have the happiness I now have, without having the pain that I've endured. When people take the time to talk to me about my experience, I eventually get around to saying something like "very little frightens me now; I've faced my biggest fear and survived. There isn't much left that would hurt me now." Which is not to say that I don't worry about things, I do plenty of that, but I now have strength that I did not have before. I know that if things get tough, I have the resources and tools to make it through. Religion doesn't do that for me, spirituality does.

Amen haha. Amen to that, God built us to be fearless in His name, fearless in knowing He is there and that nothing can touch us without Him saying so, so that when it comes to be our time, we receive it with a smile.

[tdogg]

To me, religion is based on a person's relationships with other people involved in the religion. Spirituality is a direct connection between me and my God, my personal relationship with the being I connect with and worship.

Religion = people
Spirituality = my God

I totally get the bumper sticker. True to life for me as well.

[u-dog]

I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself.

Oh, the very opposite!
If you and I ever meet will we be at each others' throats??

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh, the very opposite!
If you and I ever meet will we be at each others' throats??

I cannot imagine being at your throat dear one !!

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

Buddhism also has the concept of community, in this case called the Sangha. The community is a very important part. It carries the 'tradition' forward and helps balance one's meditation practice, which is, of necessity, a private affair.

[wmanion]

I do not consider myself religious. I believe it is in James where it says true religion is to visit the widows and the fatherless. However, I do consider myself a spiritual person.

[NathanATX]

I know that God... Spirit... the Universe... has some kind of ministry/transformation calling on my life. It is my path... like a magnet, I always get drawn back to it. And I will be going to seminary to continue preparation for that calling...

But religion bores me at best and abhors me at worst.

So much to get my head around...

I spend a lot of time thinking about what can i do to promote spirituality without it becoming "religious."

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Buddhism also has the concept of community, in this case called the Sangha. The community is a very important part. It carries the 'tradition' forward and helps balance one's meditation practice, which is, of necessity, a private affair.

That doesn't surprise me. from the little I know about Budhism, that makes sense and of course it makes sense to me that the personal and the communal should balance each other.

I have a son who is feeling a little "itchy" inside of Christianity right now and I am hoping that when he decides to go exploring that he explores Budhism first. his best friend describes himself as a Budhist Episcopalian so its a good bet that that is where my son will explore first.

There is a Lutheran Baptismal hymn called "I was there to hear your borning cry" It is written from the perspective of God and it is God singing to the baptized child. One of the lines in it is "I was there the day you wandered off to see where demons dwell" Whenever we sing it... half the congregation is in tears.

I keep thinking about that line when I think about all of my sons' spiritual journeys. Not that budhism or other religions are demonic but just that wherever they journey, the Spirit of Christ will accompany them.

[paul]

"I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself."

u-dog,

. Whew, a Calvinist gay guy? That's more oxymoronic than "gay fundamentalist Christian."

I have observed the same thing about private individual spirituality leading to self worship. I also observe that much of the bible contains the purported experiences of just such people, and is reputed to have been written by the same. Moses was all alone up on the mountain getting the law. Abraham was alone when God told him to leave Babylon, sacrifice Issac. Hosea was alone when God told him to leave his wife and marry a harlot (gee, and I thought it was hard to come out to my wife, imagine telling your wife that God wants you to marry a harlot?). Paul was alone when he was transported up into the heavens. Peter was alone when he had the dream about including gentiles in the flock.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

"I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself."

u-dog,

. Whew, a Calvinist gay guy? That's more oxymoronic than "gay fundamentalist Christian."

I have observed the same thing about private individual spirituality leading to self worship. I also observe that much of the bible contains the purported experiences of just such people, and is reputed to have been written by the same. Moses was all alone up on the mountain getting the law. Abraham was alone when God told him to leave Babylon, sacrifice Issac. Hosea was alone when God told him to leave his wife and marry a harlot (gee, and I thought it was hard to come out to my wife, imagine telling your wife that God wants you to marry a harlot?). Paul was alone when he was transported up into the heavens. Peter was alone when he had the dream about including gentiles in the flock.

Brentrichards is a gay Calvinist too. We didn't choose to be gay... we were elected. (all in favor of Brent and Dave being gay... please say "aye" opposed same sign... carried. )


AND THEN all of those people went back down the mountain and rejoined their community who then remembered and told their stories for generation after generation... My point exactly.

[paul]

"AND THEN all of those people went back down the mountain and rejoined their community who then remembered and told their stories for generation after generation... My point exactly."

Well, actually, my point was more about your original one of the community checking the individual, which makes sense to me and would be the ideal. Honestly, I don't see a lot of that in the bible. Not that it didn't happen, I don't know, there just doesn't seem to be much of a record of it. For instance, when Paul said women cannot teach men, we cannot turn to the book of Jane to hear her response to his declaration, pointing out that "God had left the building." Most (not all) of the individuals in the bible seem dictatorial to me. I heard from God and this is what God said: "eating lobster is an abomination."

Fast forward to today. Many "Christians" have the same modus operandi, taking an unquestioning approach to the bible. They become dictatorial and they have further formed communities to affirm their assertions. So, communitees don't always work. Witness, Jim Jones. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Gay people know this form of "spirituality" well, what gay person hasn't heard Romans 1:24-27 quoted, ad naseum, as "God's" final word on us.

I go back to my original response to the bumper sticker that started all of this: "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is."

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by paul

[B]", communitees don't always work. Witness, Jim Jones. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Gay people know this form of "spirituality" well, what gay person hasn't heard Romans 1:24-27 quoted, ad naseum, as "God's" final word on us.

I go back to my original response to the bumper sticker that started all of this: "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is."

Paul, what a wonderful opportunity for you to go within and find out!!

There are only two things that Christ said (that I know about, I mean!) which resonate to me, the girl who never went to church and has never read a Bible. Those two things are, nr.1: whatever you do to someone else (feeding the hungry, or not, etc) you have done to him.
nr.2 Within.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Brentrichards is a gay Calvinist too. We didn't choose to be gay... we were elected. (all in favor of Brent and Dave being gay... please say "aye" opposed same sign... carried. )

You shoulda seen the campaign trail!

Worse yet, Paul, I'm a gay evangelical Republican Calvinist Wal-Mart shopper. I need to be medicated.

I have to agree with U-Dog on this one (and by have to, I mean I'm predestined to ... :0/), I get the creeping heebie jeebies every time I hear someone say "I can worship God on my own, why do I need the church?" ... although the church per se is not the essential element, other people ARE an essential element. The Lone Ranger was a great Sunday afternoon TV show, but it's a lousy spiritual growth strategy.

I think the trouble in defining "spiritual" is simply that it's too broad a concept. I tell the kids we work with (we are not a religious based youth foundation, but we encourage kids to pursue the religious faith of their/their family's choosing) that at the basic level, spirituality is just that morning when you wake up, look in the mirror, and realize that you are not looking at the center of the universe. It's that knowledge that "there's got to be more than this." But that's awfully broad. It seems to me that there has to be an influence of religion, in some form, to tell us much more than this.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

"AND THEN all of those people went back down the mountain and rejoined their community who then remembered and told their stories for generation after generation... My point exactly."

Well, actually, my point was more about your original one of the community checking the individual, which makes sense to me and would be the ideal. Honestly, I don't see a lot of that in the bible. Not that it didn't happen, I don't know, there just doesn't seem to be much of a record of it. For instance, when Paul said women cannot teach men, we cannot turn to the book of Jane to hear her response to his declaration, pointing out that "God had left the building." Most (not all) of the individuals in the bible seem dictatorial to me. I heard from God and this is what God said: "eating lobster is an abomination."

1) Paul never said that. It is an obvious later interpolation into his letter. Pure Pauline theology is that "in Christ there is no longer Jew or Gentile, Slave or free, Male or Female" Actually, ALL OF PAUL'S LETTERS are examples of the Community holding itself accountable to their shared values. That is EXACTLY why Paul writes every one of his letters. Somebody is moving away from the center and he is calling them back. The books of Nehemiah/Ezra and Jonah are another good example. After the disaster of the Exile the Jews are confused about the meaning of that experience. Jonah and Isaiah understand it to mean that Israel is called to be a light to the nations and has a universal outward call into the world. The writers of Nehemiah and Ezra see the experience as meaning that Israel should draw inward, distrust strangers, and only marry other other Jews. BOTH positions are preserved by the tradition

Fast forward to today. Many "Christians" have the same modus operandi, taking an unquestioning approach to the bible. They become dictatorial and they have further formed communities to affirm their assertions. So, communitees don't always work. Witness, Jim Jones. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Gay people know this form of "spirituality" well, what gay person hasn't heard Romans 1:24-27 quoted, ad naseum, as "God's" final word on us.

And then there are the liberal and moderate churches and the liturgical churches and the Eastern churches all of whom raise up another point of view that calls that conservative BS to account. The process isn't immediate. its glacially slow.

I go back to my original response to the bumper sticker that started all of this: "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is."