Religion/Spirituality

[paul]

u-dog!!

, that was funny what you did with my last sentence. Since you're quick to join depricating my self, I'll further qualify that I have never met a person who I am convinced has figured it out either.

I almost made the same point of the liberal, etc., church checking the conservative, my brain went there also. I appreciate that liberal scholarship is willing to question the canon and the whole notion of scriptural inerrancy (you don't sound like a Calvinist ), also are able to question the traditional authorship of the various books of the bible. The sticking point for me is not so much method employed by the various divisions of Christianity, but sincerity. I have met people in all walks that strick me as completely sincere. You seem completely sincere to me in your beliefs, even though I have only known you a short time. But, I have met real Calvinists who also are sincere in their beliefs. Each side has their compelling intellectual arguments as to why they are right and the other is wrong. Each side is certain, sincerely, that the other side just doesn't get it. Gone are the days of Elijah where the one party is proven to be right and the other wrong by God him/herself by an actual definitive demonstration that goes beyond human assertion. I see nice people with beliefs My wife is the nicest, sincerest person I know. She is also certain with a smile on her face and love in her heart that I'm going to go to hell if I don't repent of being gay. She is willing to stay married because she knows that is what's best for me. What informs that belief? Why, the bible and "Gods Spirit."

I have yet to meet someone who can draw the line between intellect, emotion and "spirit." Who can give a standard by which any can measure what is from God?

[tdogg]

the problem with getting others involved in 'my' spirituality, is that, well others are involved. Then it's about the people, not God. Pleasing the people, living up to people's standards, other people defining 'sin', telling me what's right and wrong. There is very little consistency and cohesiveness with hoards of others are what its all about.

Not to say, considering spirituality to be something private between me and my God doesn't allow for partcipation by others, but I just don't base my spirituality on human thought. Just like I don't base my beliefs on the literal Bible (whatever version). I use it as a guide, with much prayer and meditation, similar to how I would use the input of people. My thoughts and attitude towards spirtuality are in part a result of the effects of allowing others to rule me religiously.

Here is an example of human accountability: a church I once attended and was actively involved in, had a small congregation that started out as a home bible study. Eventually it grew enough where a rented gymnasium and classrooms were needed for Sunday school and services. The worship leader was a very faithful and wonderful young man, and his wife was a singer in the worship group. They were VERY active in the church, leading worship, teaching Sunday school, always giving to others. Apparently the pastor (who was not supposed to even know how much anyone gave to the church) felt this family was not tithing properly, went to their home with his most high elder and proceeded to give the couple a 2 hour lecture about how they needed to give more to the church.

Bunch o' crap. Don't go there anymore. I have yet to regularly attend a church where this sort of thing isn't happening. That's what happens when one gives another the authority to judge them.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

u-dog!!

, that was funny what you did with my last sentence. Since you're quick to join depricating my self, I'll further qualify that I have never met a person who I am convinced has figured it out either.[

I don't know what you are talking about here I went back and read my post and I don't think I said anything about your last sentence... cuz I don't have a clue how to answer it. glad you got a laugh out of it though Being unintentionally funny is better than nothing I guess.

I almost made the same point of the liberal, etc., church checking the conservative, my brain went there also. I appreciate that liberal scholarship is willing to question the canon and the whole notion of scriptural inerrancy (you don't sound like a Calvinist ), also are able to question the traditional authorship of the various books of the bible. The sticking point for me is not so much method employed by the various divisions of Christianity, but sincerity. I have met people in all walks that strick me as completely sincere. You seem completely sincere to me in your beliefs, even though I have only known you a short time. But, I have met real Calvinists who also are sincere in their beliefs.

Excuse me, but... I am a "real" Calvinist. I've read the Institutes of the Christian Religion from cover to cover and everything

Each side has their compelling intellectual arguments as to why they are right and the other is wrong. Each side is certain, sincerely, that the other side just doesn't get it.

I think Republicans are wrong. They just don't get it... I'm right. I totally get it. The country is in a total mess because of them. It's not rocket science what the hell are they thinking? But the fact that Brent is a political Moron and I'm right doesn't mean that I stop believing in the United States or politics or the constitution. People see what they want to see... what they are prepared to see on a whole variety of subjects and in every aspect of life. Being selectively blind is part of what it means to be a human being. So what's your point?

Gone are the days of Elijah where the one party is proven to be right and the other wrong by God him/herself by an actual definitive demonstration that goes beyond human assertion.

You could soak the sofa with water and see if you or your wife can pray it into catching fire... but youre right... its likely not going to spontaneously combust.

I see nice people with beliefs My wife is the nicest, sincerest person I know. She is also certain with a smile on her face and love in her heart that I'm going to go to hell if I don't repent of being gay. She is willing to stay married because she knows that is what's best for me. What informs that belief? Why, the bible and "Gods Spirit."

I'm sure that your wife is a very nice person. I am sure that she is very sincere in her beliefs. I'm sure that she is probably going to go to heaven. I'm sure that she is going be very surprised to see you there too. Lots of "wrong people" are going to be surprised about lots of stuff. I'm looking forward to that personally

I have yet to meet someone who can draw the line between intellect, emotion and "spirit." Who can give a standard by which any can measure what is from God?

What surprises you about that? What is in the creation can be measured. It exists in (however many) dimensions. things are tall, wide, and deep. things have a beginning and an end and the distance between the two can be measured. God and the world of the Spirit are outside of the creation and have no dimensions which can be measured. Spirit... that is, "the thing that connects us to the divine" is likewise without dimension and likewise cannot be measured in the way that you would like. My experience of the Pneumenous is ALL tied up with intellect, emotion, experience, serendipity, etc. Its like a complex and intricate braid that can't be undone to examine the individual strands.

Living a life with God is like floating in a lake. You don't know for certain that there is water there or that the water will hold you up until give yourself to it. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. There are lots of us out here floating around, doing the back stroke, floating on our backs singing hymns at the top of our lungs (my grandmother used to do that in Lake Erie ) we see you standing on the beach and we'd love to have you come out and join us but we can't prove to you that there is water or that it will hold you up. finally you will either decide to give yourself to the water that may or may not be there... or you won't. Finally Nice people with stories is all there is. sorry.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

But the fact that Brent is a political Moron and I'm right doesn't mean that I stop believing in the United States or politics or the constitution.

No, I'm Presbyterian, and I've never even been to Utah!

[paul]

U-dog,
" I don't know what you are talking about here I went back and read my post and I don't think I said anything about your last sentence... cuz I don't have a clue how to answer it. glad you got a laugh out of it though Being unintentionally funny is better than nothing I guess.

oh. I thought you were being witty, addressing my other comments then leaving my statement "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is" just kind of dangling at the end. As if to affirm that statement. I read to far between the lines , or, you are sometimes unconsciously funny.

"Excuse me, but... I am a "real" Calvinist. I've read the Institutes of the Christian Religion from cover to cover and everything"

Really? Well, please excuse me also while I attempt to extricate my foot from my mouth. In my very weak defense you did say: "But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself." I see now you were only half joking. I spent much of my youth in Calvinist circles and I associate "Calvinist" with "fundamentalist" (you're not a fundamentalist too are you?), since that's all I've ever known. You seem to be a "liberal" Christian and I have never put "liberal" and "Calvin" together to describe a person. I guess I don't get out enough, I've never met a gay guy who embraces the teachings of Calvinism. As I consider it though, why not? I'm not sure why, I'll have to think on it. Either way, I'm sorry for being presumptuous, I need to be more careful.


"I think Republicans are wrong. They just don't get it... I'm right. I totally get it. The country is in a total mess because of them. It's not rocket science what the hell are they thinking? But the fact that Brent is a political Moron and I'm right doesn't mean that I stop believing in the United States or politics or the constitution. People see what they want to see... what they are prepared to see on a whole variety of subjects and in every aspect of life. Being selectively blind is part of what it means to be a human being. So what's your point?"

Uh oh, I think I'm falling in love . You're brilliant and already got my point of course: "Brent is a political Moron." I admit that I like your selective blindness better than most, it seems a lot more inclusive. My bigger concern is the unselective blindness we all suffer from.

"I'm sure that your wife is a very nice person. I am sure that she is very sincere in her beliefs. I'm sure that she is probably going to go to heaven. I'm sure that she is going be very surprised to see you there too. Lots of "wrong people" are going to be surprised about lots of stuff. I'm looking forward to that personally"

Yeah, this is what I meant in the previous paragraph about you being "more inclusive." Frankly, I'd rather you be writing legislation than the other type. You're a heck of a lot nicer than the people who take the opposite attitude of "there's going to be many surprised people in hell." It's that "sure" vs. "probably" part about going to heaven where it starts to break down for me (which is it?). My question to my self about this and other pertinent questions was "how do you know?" And I couldn't answer that, so I took a giant step back.

"What surprises you about that? What is in the creation can be measured. It exists in (however many) dimensions. things are tall, wide, and deep. things have a beginning and an end and the distance between the two can be measured. God and the world of the Spirit are outside of the creation and have no dimensions which can be measured. Spirit... that is, "the thing that connects us to the divine" is likewise without dimension and likewise cannot be measured in the way that you would like. My experience of the Pneumenous is ALL tied up with intellect, emotion, experience, serendipity, etc. Its like a complex and intricate braid that can't be undone to examine the individual strands. "

I'm not surprised about that. I wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say. When it comes to standards of living, there are a thousand thousand camps all claiming to "know God's will." I don't doubt you want to "know God's will" and I don't doubt that I wanted that as well. I just couldn't find a way where I could determine what that is. Plenty of people will tell you what God's will is, but they cannot show you how it is indeed God's will beyond their assertions.


Living a life with God is like floating in a lake. You don't know for certain that there is water there or that the water will hold you up until give yourself to it. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. There are lots of us out here floating around, doing the back stroke, floating on our backs singing hymns at the top of our lungs (my grandmother used to do that in Lake Erie ) we see you standing on the beach and we'd love to have you come out and join us but we can't prove to you that there is water or that it will hold you up. finally you will either decide to give yourself to the water that may or may not be there... or you won't.

I'd be willing to bet you'd like some of my sermons (real sermons, I was a preacher at one time) on faith. I've been in the water for some time and almost drowned, so I am on the shore now.

Finally Nice people with stories is all there is. sorry.

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it. But it's okay, it's nice to know nice people, no need to be "sorry." I much prefer nice people to mean people.

[u-dog]

[QUOTE=paul;36024]

"Excuse me, but... I am a "real" Calvinist. I've read the Institutes of the Christian Religion from cover to cover and everything"

Well, from the perspective of a fundamentalist I probably seem "liberal" but my theology is really very orthodox. I can say the Apostle's creed without crossing my fingers or blushing or mumbling or ANYTHING. Politically and Socially? Yeah, I am totally liberal. theologically? not so much. Neo-orthodox and Reformed describe me pretty accurately.

I believe that the REAL stretch comes with trying to be a Calvinist and a fundamentalist/literalist. Calvin taught that JESUS is the Word of God and that the Word comes to us through Scripture, the sacraments, and preaching BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. the book itself (sans Spirit) is just a book. I think he would judge most fundamentalists today as Biblical idolaters (as I do) . The essential hallmarks of a Calvinist are the total depravity of humanity(which seems self-evident to me ... read the newspaper) and the Sovereign Grace of God (to save whomever He pleases). For a Calvinist the primary sin of humanity... the one that was committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden and every person since... Is idolatry (putting something other than God at the center of life) and the worst kind of idolatry is putting oneself at the center of life.

I don't like the idea of predestination very much... but then... Calvin didn't like it that much either. CS Lewis has helped me to reconcile the Omniscience and Sovereignty of God to the idea of Free will for which I am grateful.

Uh oh, I think I'm falling in love . You're brilliant and already got my point of course: "Brent is a political Moron." I admit that I like your selective blindness better than most, it seems a lot more inclusive. My bigger concern is the unselective blindness we all suffer from.

Sorry. I'm spoken for! but I like you too . I think conservatism/republicanism is a temporary condition for Brent because the fact is... He ISN'T a moron. We all suffer from blindnesses that we choose (usually out of fear) and ones we DON'T choose. It's the human condition.

I'd be willing to bet you'd like some of my sermons (real sermons, I was a preacher at one time) on faith. I've been in the water for some time and almost drowned, so I am on the shore now.

Well... blow the water outa your sinuses and when you're ready come on back in! the water's great!

I have to say that I have always experienced fundamentalists and atheists as being very similar kinds of people. The hunger for certainty in both always seems so INTENSE. Atheists are PISSED OFF because they can't find it and Fundamentalists have fooled themselves into believing that they HAVE found it. There are a bunch of us in the middle who just love Jesus and are willing to leave the certainty til later. I recommend this.

[paul]

There are a bunch of us in the middle who just love Jesus and are willing to leave the certainty til later

That would probably come closest to describing me. I'm big on saying "I don't know." But I still really like the teachings of Jesus, ICor. 13...many wouldn't know that I'm not a "Christian" unless I told them. I don't call myself an atheist either...I just don't "know" enough to call myself either.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

There are a bunch of us in the middle who just love Jesus and are willing to leave the certainty til later

That would probably come closest to describing me. I'm big on saying "I don't know." But I still really like the teachings of Jesus, ICor. 13...many wouldn't know that I'm not a "Christian" unless I told them. I don't call myself an atheist either...I just don't "know" enough to call myself either.

Maybe I should have said we can leave the PROOF til later. I KNOW there's a God... I'm swimming in him all the time. I just can't prove it to you... and don't feel any real need to prove it to me

[BrentRichards]

I'm gone most of the week, and I take a royal beating in this thread in my absence. Gee, thanks!

[paul]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

I'm gone most of the week, and I take a royal beating in this thread in my absence. Gee, thanks!

Hey yeah Brent I noticed. What is it between you and u-dog anyway?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

Hey yeah Brent I noticed. What is it between you and u-dog anyway?

He has a crush on me! Its all very embarrassing.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

He has a crush on me! Its all very embarrassing.

Yeah, and he thinks I'm goofy looking. There's gonna be a nasty cat-fight with hissing and fur flying sooner or later.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Yeah, and he thinks I'm goofy looking. There's gonna be a nasty cat-fight with hissing and fur flying sooner or later.

I meant that in the BEST POSSIBLE way, Brent... really. I sorta like the goofy look

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I meant that in the BEST POSSIBLE way, Brent... really. I sorta like the goofy look

No matter, Pablo thinks I'm hot, anyway ... and

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

No matter, Pablo thinks I'm hot, anyway ... and

Oh come on! Pablo thinks EVERYBODY is hot!! (by the way Pablo, did you recieve that copy of Calvin's Institutes in Braille that I sent you? Let me know when it arrives)

But never mind. Your subtle theology, caring compassionate heart, and delightful sense of humor more than make up for your goofiness AND your Republican-ness.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Oh come on! Pablo thinks EVERYBODY is hot!! (by the way Pablo, did you recieve that copy of Calvin's Institutes in Braille that I sent you? Let me know when it arrives)

But never mind. Your subtle theology, caring compassionate heart, and delightful sense of humor more than make up for your goofiness AND your Republican-ness.

Push me, dog boy, push me. We'll see...

And thank you for the compliment ... how'd you let that slip?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Push me, dog boy, push me. We'll see...

And thank you for the compliment ... how'd you let that slip?

As my sister said to my mother when she was 4 after having been rolled down the hill in her new coat by a group of rough-housing boys.

"Mommy! Boys don't tease you 'less they like you"

I'm not admiting to a crush or anything (well, maybe what straight boys these days are describing as a "man-crush" ) but I do enjoy your friendship immensely Brent. And for the record I don't REALLY think that you are goofy looking.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

As my sister said to my mother when she was 4 after having been rolled down the hill in her new coat by a group of rough-housing boys.

"Mommy! Boys don't tease you 'less they like you"

I'm not admiting to a crush or anything (well, maybe what straight boys these days are describing as a "man-crush" ) but I do enjoy your friendship immensely Brent. And for the record I don't REALLY think that you are goofy looking.

I know we're "only foolin'" ... I've often said to people something quite similar ... I don't ever pick on anyone I genuinely dislike, that's too real! So if I pick on you, you know I don't mean it.

By the way, what straight boys are you hanging out with? Man-crush? I've missed that one.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

I know we're "only foolin'" ... I've often said to people something quite similar ... I don't ever pick on anyone I genuinely dislike, that's too real! So if I pick on you, you know I don't mean it.

By the way, what straight boys are you hanging out with? Man-crush? I've missed that one.

It's a term I have overheard my twin sons using. it seems to be a way to refer to strong feelings between straight men. Appearantly you can append the prefix "man" to a lot of things to make it mean "not gay". I don't fully understand the nuances but I'll keep my eye on the phenomenon and let you know what I learn.

The ways of straight people are mysterious and confusing sometimes, no?

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

No matter, Pablo thinks I'm hot, anyway ... and

Darn right! Now you're finally getting the message. (I mean, am I right everybody? the guy is downright cute.) Brent, I notice you're getting nervous. I'm not hitting on you. My thoughts and motives are completely honorable.

Originally Posted by u-dog

Oh come on! Pablo thinks EVERYBODY is hot!! (by the way Pablo, did you recieve that copy of Calvin's Institutes in Braille that I sent you? Let me know when it arrives).

Cheap shot, cheap shot! I resent that, Dave. I have the highest standards and only think the coolest of guys are "hot". For instance I don't think you are "hot" at all, in fact... Oops, my mother said "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

And what is it with you and Calvin? You think that we Catholics are totally clueless when it comes to Reformation theology and history. Well, I know all about Calvin, I'd like you to know. I really don't understand why you quote him.

Actually I think of the two, Hobbes is by far the smartest. AND he has better people skills.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

PS: Uhhh... Brent, just for future reference: Would it have been OK if I HAD BEEN hitting on you?