Lifestyle

[sailaway58]

So far I haven't decided which is more disturbing, how much we are alike or how much we are different.
Sunday the Pastor spoke on the lifestyle of a Christian. All though it had nothing to do with Gay life I couldn't help but wonder if his choice of words might be offensive to my "friends" (I haven't really been here to have established friendship) here at Soulforce.
I don't think anything would have been misconstrued that way but I couldn't help but think of how that particular word is offensive when use improperly here.
All that made me wonder how people here would describe the lifestyle of a believer. What lines shouldn't be crossed? In leisure what activities would we agree are spiritually unhealthy?
How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?
Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?
By the way, I lead a small group and last night I mentioned I had joined a kind of gay Christian web site. It got kind of quiet. After explaining that I haven’t always agreed with the traditional Church view about same sex attraction and that I believe that Christ’s love was for EVERYONE, people began to loosen up a little. I said we accept people that bring all kinds of baggage to the church and have no problem loving them, why then can’t we reach out in love to someone that is only interested in being who they are? Whether you believe it is a choice or it is just who they are, isn’t our responsibility to love others period?
There was a little nervous tension but I think my point was made in a positive way with them.
And if I might be honest because it may seem that I am a pretty understanding guy, sometimes I want to run away from the whole issue, but for some reason I can’t.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

So far I haven't decided which is more disturbing, how much we are alike or how much we are different.
Sunday the Pastor spoke on the lifestyle of a Christian.

All that made me wonder how people here would describe the lifestyle of a believer. What lines shouldn't be crossed? In leisure what activities would we agree are spiritually unhealthy?

It will probably be agreed that spiritual unhealthy activities are anything that harms ourselves or others.

How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?

Now *that* is going to depend upon *which* gay christian and *which* gay non-christian you choose to compare.

Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?

That will mostly depend upon which individual you talk to. Since I'm not a gay christian, I will try leaving these topics for those who *are.*

By the way, I lead a small group and last night I mentioned I had joined a kind of gay Christian web site. It got kind of quiet. After explaining that I haven’t always agreed with the traditional Church view about same sex attraction and that I believe that Christ’s love was for EVERYONE, people began to loosen up a little. I said we accept people that bring all kinds of baggage to the church and have no problem loving them, why then can’t we reach out in love to someone that is only interested in being who they are?
And if I might be honest because it may seem that I am a pretty understanding guy, sometimes I want to run away from the whole issue, but for some reason I can’t.

That's a very good sign in all kinds of ways. I can't leave it alone either. Honestly, the whole gay topic in the political arena still scares me. It scares me to get into arguments with my senators' staffers, and it scares me to stand on a streetcorner in public wearing a tee shirt with a pro-LGBT message. But I can't stop doing it, because I need to do these things. My soul and my conscience NEED me to do so, or else, who would I be? Understanding makes for responsibility. We are responsible for what we understand.

Thank you, Sailor, for what you did last night. It was courageous. Your caring and efforts will not be lost on the gay community, but more importantly, your own conscience and your own integrity are much strengthened by the fact that you stood for love.

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?
Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?

Tim,

It is my personal belief that the lives of gay Christians and straight Christians should look exactly the same. They should be the same beacuse all of our relationships should be grounded in the concept of grace. God loves us with an unselfish love; he gave himself to die for us so that we might have life. Therefore our actions likewise need to be based on love toward God and love towards each other.

I believe that the differences between gay relationships and straight relationships are simply artificial constructs of our society. I think that God wishes all relationships to be based on love. Part of that love involves forgiveness when others wrong us or we wrong them.

Personally I believe that fidelty in marriage is a form of love to one's partner. I believe that marriage is the committment of two people to each other; whether it is recognized by a governmental authority doesn't matter. So yes, I believe that the place for sex is within marriage regardless of the ages or genders of the individuals.

As Christians we also must realize that we will never reach the ideal of perfection. All of us have weaknesses and all of us need forgiveness. No one has room to stand in judgement on another. Our Christian "lifestyle" should be simply that others can see the love that we have for everyone.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[paul]

"All that made me wonder how people here would describe the lifestyle of a believer. What lines shouldn't be crossed? In leisure what activities would we agree are spiritually unhealthy?
How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?
Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?"

Sailaway,

You're not Baptist, are you?

I think the answers to your questions depend on what you use to inform or define your Christianity. I quip about your not being baptist, because their definition of "Christian" does not include glbt.

Some "Christians" use the bible. Some use only parts of the bible (like the "teachings of Christ"). Then, of course, there's the endless arguments of interpretation. You use the term "spiritually." Can you define what you mean by that? The reason I ask is because there is a teaching in Christianity that directs one to "walk by the spirit." It seems to me that if you can figure out what that means and how to do that, it would be the answer to your questions.

[pnggrad79]

Given the seemingly confusing Biblical mores on sex, I don't know that remaining celibate before marriage is what is called for here. For example, Abraham slept with two women, David had several, so did Solomon. These men were pillars of the faith, so how and where did it change from this to "one man, one woman". Moreover, why should gay people adhere to such constraints? I think that since gay relationships are not allowed to mature in society because they are taboo, sex is all we have. We aren't allowed to date, as straight people do. We aren't allowed to have an open relationships, and when we do, for some it is at great cost. We aren't allowed to get married, so we have to jump through hoops to see that our loved ones are taken care of and such. We aren't allowed to "find the right one".
I am not for bed hopping, but at the same time, I admire glbt folks who decide to wait until they are in a committed relationship, but I cannot and will not point a finger at the other glbt people who have sex with whomever, whenever. That is something they have to work out for themselves.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

I think that since gay relationships are not allowed to mature in society because they are taboo, sex is all we have. We aren't allowed to date, as straight people do. We aren't allowed to have an open relationships, and when we do, for some it is at great cost. s.

Oh PNG. Have you ever thought of getting out of Texas?

[sailaway58]

Thanks everyone, for all your comments. My wife and I are on this journey together. We are both reading your comments and feel a better understanding of this community even in these few days.
One of the funniest comments made to me so far was from a Christian brother. I told him I was on this quest for understanding and He said, “Well don’t try it”.
I think I can handle all of this as long as I don’t have to become liberal and like Hillary.
Finally,
I feel a little guardedness from some of you and I don’t blame anyone for that.
One thing I want to make clear is I am not here to decide if I should judge GLBT.
We won’t agree on many things and as we disagree we will make judgments about each other. Judge my motive, my ideas and my demeanor. Judge our friendship compatibility, my hair style or my shirt. But let’s not judge the others soul. As we have the free exchange of ideas I understand I am a guest in your world here and have not come to save you, change you or harass.
Let time prove this to be true.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

One of the funniest comments made to me so far was from a Christian brother. I told him I was on this quest for understanding and He said, “Well don’t try it”.

I think there is more that one way to understand something, after all, we have a head and a heart, and they don't always agree, do they?

Our heads can have a hard time wrapping itself around information that makes no sense to us, either because we have no connection to it, lack experience, or simply have habitual ways of thinking which are unexamined.

The heart, I would wager, doesn't see things in the same way. And for me anyway, this is where compassion comes into play. My sense is that it is possible for the compassionate heart to 'understand' many things which the mind finds troublesome, annoying, or downright repulsive. It connects in ways which may even confound the head.

I think we need more of this.

[sjbouza]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I think there is more that one way to understand something, after all, we have a head and a heart, and they don't always agree, do they?

Our heads can have a heard time wrapping itself around information that makes no sense to us, either because we have no connection to it, lack experience, or simply have habitual ways of thinking which are unexamined.

The heart, I would wager, doesn't see things is the same way. And for me anyway, this is where compassion comes into play. My sense is that it is possible for the compassionate heart to 'understand' many things which the mind finds troublesome, annoying, or downright repulsive. It connects in ways which may even confound the head.

I think we need more of this.

Daniel,

The more I read from what you post the more enlightened I become. I have never thought of it that way. The heart discerns what the mind cannot comprehend. At least that I what I get from what you are saying.

Thank you Daniel for your knowledge and insight. I just want you to know that you are appreciated.

Peace and love,
Scott

[sailaway58]

Speaking of enlightened, I just watched "Survivor's Initiative - New Life Church Action" video by Daniel Gonzales.

That is one of the best things I have seen on this site to date. The only way the stories could be more powerful for me would be if I knew the people personally.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Thanks everyone, for all your comments. My wife and I are on this journey together. We are both reading your comments and feel a better understanding of this community even in these few days.


I feel a little guardedness from some of you and I don’t blame anyone for that.
One thing I want to make clear is I am not here to decide if I should judge GLBT.
We won’t agree on many things and as we disagree we will make judgments about each other. Judge my motive, my ideas and my demeanor. Judge our friendship compatibility, my hair style or my shirt. But let’s not judge the others soul. As we have the free exchange of ideas I understand I am a guest in your world here and have not come to save you, change you or harass.
Let time prove this to be true.

If you don't mind, what gives you the impression you're running into "guardedness" here? I hope you don't feel unwelcome, because you have been a lovely presence here so far, and I hope you continue to hang around.

One thing you will find about the gay community is, it is EXTREMELY diverse. As is this forum, which is not just for gay people, it's for anyone who values the intrinsic dignity of LGBT people and wants to see institutional homophobia stop assaulting our own innocent friends neighbors and children.

I hope you will feel happy enough here that you decide to stay. Your questioning and exploring is a very, very good thing, for you, and for the world around you. Feel free to ask whatever questions you like. We will tell you if something pushes an alarm button. But I don't think you need to worry about that - I don't think you're going to.

[tymejumper]

[QUOTE=Pablo Rafael;35390]Tim,

It is my personal belief that the lives of gay Christians and straight Christians should look exactly the same.


I think that indeed a gay and straight Christian would indeed look the same with reguards to following Gods word and such. If you follow the big 10, then it does not really matter if who you love is female or male.

I consider myself a believer in God/Goddess, but not exactly a Christian. My partner and myself folow more of the Buddist/Zen teachings of following a path. I feel I am still being true to the Christian ideal of following the 10 commandments as they are rules everyone should live by. I don't see how being Christian or non Christian is all different for a gay person. Maybe being Buddist, it was easier to accept myself as gay than if I were to be strict Christian.

I believe Hell is a state that we put ourselves in, we make our own Hells here ion Earth by being unhappy, wanting what we do not or can not have and holding onto pain we need to let go of. Not being afraid of going to Hell for being gay hs given me a curious sense of faith and beliefe in others beliefes. I can listen with an open heart to others beliefes and be ok with it. I have greater understanding and no problem praying to God or Jesus, it does not infringe upon my faith at all. I also can worship the Goddess and feel alive.

Being gay and non Christian does not mean that I am loose, I am faithful to my partner/wife, I waited a while for sex and I do not believe in using others for gain. I don't steal or cheat or lie, and it upsets me greatly when others do so. I seek to be the best human I can be and believe that the energy that I release into the world and universe will come back to me multiplied. So I strive to be the best most understanding and fair person I can be.

I dont think that there are many differences at all in gay Cristains and non Christains.

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh PNG. Have you ever thought of getting out of Texas?

Zerb,
I would LOVE to get out of Texas, but California is too expensive, so is Hawaii, and the Northeast is too cold. I would love Canada, but wife doesn't want to be that far from her parents. I wish like everything I could get out of Texas. I have thought about New Mexico or Arizona. Love both states. Maybe someday. Still holding out for that day when the gay haters die off and the young people coming up will give us our rights.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

If you don't mind, what gives you the impression you're running into "guardedness" here? I hope you don't feel unwelcome, because you have been a lovely presence here so far, and I hope you continue to hang around.

It is probably my own guardedness or apprehension projected to others.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Finally,
I feel a little guardedness from some of you and I don’t blame anyone for that.

considering the good-natured ribbing that's going on over in my "dirty little man" thread, I'd have to say we've let our guard down, and you're in with the in-crowd!

[paul]

I asked a question earlier and hope it doesn't get lost in the jumble, I consider it germane to the original topic? What's your take?

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I think there is more that one way to understand something, after all, we have a head and a heart, and they don't always agree, do they?

Our heads can have a hard time wrapping itself around information that makes no sense to us, either because we have no connection to it, lack experience, or simply have habitual ways of thinking which are unexamined.

The heart, I would wager, doesn't see things is the same way. And for me anyway, this is where compassion comes into play. My sense is that it is possible for the compassionate heart to 'understand' many things which the mind finds troublesome, annoying, or downright repulsive. It connects in ways which may even confound the head.

I think we need more of this.

Daniel, this is exactly it! When I finally came out to myself (the first step!), my head was full of the things that were taught and preached to me from a very young child, and from that, the things I truly believed and those I truly did not; various media projections (positive and negative); opinions and comments from friends and family (haven't come out to them yet at that point, but in general); relief at finally accepting myself, wonder at being able to fully experience what that meant mentally, emotionally and physically; excitement at the possibilities; a myriad of other thoughts.

Then I started dating my partner, and even more brain activity ensued. Finally came out here and there to family and friends, and now live pretty much OUT there.

There was a point, when I decided to clear out all the thoughts, clear this ole noggin of mine, and search deep within my HEART. Wonder of wonders, there wasn't much confusion going on there. My heart was very satisfied, happy and okay with being gay, and later, being with a lover of the same sex. 2.5 years later, we are still happy together, work through the issues and feel blessed to have found each other and to have such a happy, loving and easy relationship (most of the time).

Sometimes, now and then, my head starts going again, but I pretty much clear out the head rushes with a quiet time focused on my heart. It speaks very clearly, truthfully and pointedly, when I bother to listen to it.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by paul

I asked a question earlier and hope it doesn't get lost in the jumble, I consider it germane to the original topic? What's your take?

Sailaway,

You're not Baptist, are you? No

I think the answers to your questions depend on what you use to inform or define your Christianity. I quip about your not being baptist, because their definition of "Christian" does not include glbt. I am not Baptist but I but as far as my churches stance would go, GLBT is a sin. Personally I am a conservative that believes in evolution, pre-determined sexual orientation and I believe not all Catholics are going to hell. I'm a misfit

Some "Christians" use the bible. Some use only parts of the bible (like the "teachings of Christ"). Then, of course, there's the endless arguments of interpretation. You use the term "spiritually." Can you define what you mean by that? The reason I ask is because there is a teaching in Christianity that directs one to "walk by the spirit." It seems to me that if you can figure out what that means and how to do that, it would be the answer to your questions.I hate to use church phrases but basically I believe in a born again experience that fills you with God's fullness at the time of conversion. The rest of my life is spent learning to walk, live, speak and love in the fullness Christ afforded me by his death and resurrection. I strive to know the heart of God but don't pretend to believe I would ever fully achieve it.

I guess I wasn't to put my answers inside your quote but I am not changing it now.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

I guess I wasn't to put my answers inside your quote but I am not changing it now.

different color works just fine! zerbie does that often. we're ok with that.

[paul]

Hi sailaway,

I guess there was more than one question mark in what I wrote, the first one about being Baptist was a lame attempt at humor. In my experience, a Baptist would never even consider that gay may be okay, let alone bring it up at church. So in my book that would make you an unusual (extremely) and brave Baptist. As it is, you're just unusal and brave. As to being a "misfit," you've come to the right place, welcome to the island of misfit toys. Btw, since you don't believe all Catholics are going to hell, and you are conservative, you might enjoy Andrew Sullivan. Particularly, you might enjoy his book "Normal An Argument About Homosexuality."

As to my original question about "spiritually," I have found two general schools of thought, usually falling into the charismatic or non camps. The charismatics tend to believe in an actual part called the spirit whereas the nonies treat the spirit more as a concept. Either way, when I talk to Christians about "the spirit," things start getting kind of vague, very hard to nail down. Understandable, how to you 'nail down' the wind? Still, if the Bibllical directive is to "walk by the spirit," and "the Spirit will teach..." it seems to me it would be an important thing to understand, foundational even. In the absence of such a foundation, what's left but intellect or emotion? These hardly seem adequate or reliable to me as a means of "knowing God" or "knowing Gods will." When someone uses the word "spiritual" my ears always prick up because I honestly wonder if there is such a thing.