Lifestyle

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by paul

Hi sailaway,

I guess there was more than one question mark in what I wrote, the first one about being Baptist was a lame attempt at humor. In my experience, a Baptist would never even consider that gay may be okay, let alone bring it up at church. So in my book that would make you an unusual (extremely) and brave Baptist. As it is, you're just unusal and brave. As to being a "misfit," you've come to the right place, welcome to the island of misfit toys. Btw, since you don't believe all Catholics are going to hell, and you are conservative, you might enjoy Andrew Sullivan. Particularly, you might enjoy his book "Normal An Argument About Homosexuality."

As to my original question about "spiritually," I have found two general schools of thought, usually falling into the charismatic or non camps. The charismatics tend to believe in an actual part called the spirit whereas the nonies treat the spirit more as a concept. Either way, when I talk to Christians about "the spirit," things start getting kind of vague, very hard to nail down. Understandable, how to you 'nail down' the wind? Still, if the Biblical directive is to "walk by the spirit," and "the Spirit will teach..." it seems to me it would be an important thing to understand, foundational even. In the absence of such a foundation, what's left but intellect or emotion? These hardly seem adequate or reliable to me as a means of "knowing God" or "knowing Gods will." When someone uses the word "spiritual" my ears always prick up because I honestly wonder if there is such a thing.

Hi Paul,
I got the Baptist joke. I was one for two years but I couldn't take it! (That's not a joke)
As for the spirit I believe two things.
1) We can walk in the attitude and character of Christ. The way we do that is by the renewing of our minds and the way we renew our minds is by studying Gods words, prayer and in general fellowship with believers that encourage spiritual growth.

2) Also I believe in the very spirit of God that fills us when we believe. Christ said the comforter would come and I believe that is the Holy Spirit.
What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, pick one, they all work and can support their argument with scripture.
My personal experience only tells me that when I accepted Christ something changed inside. I walked a different walk, cared about others differently and began a journey that will not be complete until I see all things clearly... When I see Christ face to face.

Almost 30 years ago I attended a anti-gay rally in Indy. I had no idea what I was getting into. One guy made a sign that said, "No Gay Teachers" and spelled teachers wrong! He was with us so we had him correct it before we got there.
I bring this up because I believe God used that time to Begin a change in me, his spirit began to guide me in a direction away from most of my Christian friends. As I heard some of the hate speech my wife and I looked at each other and said something like, "That's not really how I feel". I still thought Gay was wrong but I didn't want to hate anybody.

I want to know the heart of God and that comes by his Spirit.

A fair question might be why do some Christians seem to be so unloving? I don't know other than when we seek God through our eyes of prejudice change happens slowly. I find that people are at times more interested in being right than knowing the truth. When I read through the stories on this site and see how long it takes for some here to accept or understand their orientation it comes as no surprise that it is hard for those of us outside GLBT to get a hold of it.

[paul]

sailaway,

Thanks for continuing to indulge and respond to me, I know this was probably not the original intent of your thread.

I haven't been at soulforce for too long, but have jumped in with my shoes on. I wasn't sure how welcomed I would be because I am pretty much an infidel, well a skeptic anyway. I do have roots that go pretty deep into fundamental Christianity. 8 years ago, I was asked to pastor a church by the congregation where I attended. I deconverted about a year and a half ago because I could no longer honestly say I "know" God/Jesus. I hope this helps? i.e., to give you an idea of where I am coming from.

"1) We can walk in the attitude and character of Christ. The way we do that is by the renewing of our minds and the way we renew our minds is by studying Gods words, prayer and in general fellowship with believers that encourage spiritual growth. "

I think I understand, rather like when we refer to "the spirit of the law" vs. the letter of the law? That is to say the intent or "attitude and character" as you put it. I like that, "attitude and character." This definition makes the most sense to me when it comes to being able to quantify "spiritual" in a way we can all look at and agree on, it seems less ethereal. I have problems with elements of the method, however. In order to accomplish this type of spirituality, one has to "study Gods words." So to do this we have to identify what "Gods words" are. Of course, fundamentalists simply say, the whole bible is "God's inerrant word." Which, to many such believers way of thinking, creates a conflict for gblt peoples "lifestyle." Some argue against the fundamentalist interpretation of the bible by saying, "no, no, you must pray and ask God about those scriptures, the words of God are spiritually discerned." Rats, there's that word "spiritual" again, but this time it has a different meaning. Of course, any self respecting fundamentalist knows, and will retort accordingly, that they have indeed "prayed and asked God" for their currently held interpretation. That's why they 'know' they're right and have the Godhousekeeping Seal of approval. And birds of a feather tend to fellowship together and encourage one another in their mutually held beliefs. Okay, you know what I just elaborated on first hand. YOU are currently a fly in the ointment at your church, I would guess, by bringing up the idea of including glbt people. rutroh. My guess is, if you sit down with all those people you discussed this "lifestyle" thing with, fellowshiped and prayed together, you're still going to have division, conflict. Why? Each usually accuses the other of not really wanting to know Gods will (i.e., "the truth"). Sheesh, if I had a dollar for every time I was told that I could retire...to bedlam, no doubt .

"2) Also I believe in the very spirit of God that fills us when we believe. Christ said the comforter would come and I believe that is the Holy Spirit.
What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, pick one, they all work and can support their argument with scripture.
My personal experience only tells me that when I accepted Christ something changed inside. I walked a different walk, cared about others differently and began a journey that will not be complete until I see all things clearly... When I see Christ face to face."

"What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation." Yeah, I've observed that as well . It seems there was a time, written about in the bible, when the 'true' followers of God had signs and wonders to back up their beliefs and assertions that God was with them. Now, we have "scripture in an endless array of interpretation," many try to make that their "proof" that God is with them. In the absence of a miraculous manifestation of God's Spirit, what we are left with is our humanity. I could not honestly say I knew the difference between God's Spirit and my intellect, emotion, or imagination. Because of that, it seemed to me that for me to attribute my beliefs about God to God was taking God's name in vain.

[sailaway58]

I will get into this but we have a big week this week and I gotta go. I'll read again and put some thoughts together later.

[sailaway58]

sailaway,

Thanks for continuing to indulge and respond to me, I know this was probably not the original intent of your thread. Threads take a life of their own just like conversation. I just go where it takes me.

I haven't been at soulforce for too long, but have jumped in with my shoes on. I wasn't sure how welcomed I would be because I am pretty much an infidel, well a skeptic anyway. I do have roots that go pretty deep into fundamental Christianity. 8 years ago, I was asked to pastor a church by the congregation where I attended. I deconverted about a year and a half ago because I could no longer honestly say I "know" God/Jesus. I hope this helps? i.e., to give you an idea of where I am coming from. Just a note in passing, I think that is what is ment by we walk by faith not by site

"1) We can walk in the attitude and character of Christ. The way we do that is by the renewing of our minds and the way we renew our minds is by studying Gods words, prayer and in general fellowship with believers that encourage spiritual growth. "

I think I understand, rather like when we refer to "the spirit of the law" vs. the letter of the law? That is to say the intent or "attitude and character" as you put it. I like that, "attitude and character." This definition makes the most sense to me when it comes to being able to quantify "spiritual" in a way we can all look at and agree on, it seems less ethereal. I have problems with elements of the method, however. In order to accomplish this type of spirituality, one has to "study Gods words." So to do this we have to identify what "Gods words" are. Of course, fundamentalists simply say, the whole bible is "God's inerrant word." Which, to many such believers way of thinking, creates a conflict for gblt peoples "lifestyle." Some argue against the fundamentalist interpretation of the bible by saying, "no, no, you must pray and ask God about those scriptures, the words of God are spiritually discerned." Rats, there's that word "spiritual" again, but this time it has a different meaning. Of course, any self respecting fundamentalist knows, and will retort accordingly, that they have indeed "prayed and asked God" for their currently held interpretation. That's why they 'know' they're right and have the Godhousekeeping Seal of approval. And birds of a feather tend to fellowship together and encourage one another in their mutually held beliefs. Okay, you know what I just elaborated on first hand. YOU are currently a fly in the ointment at your church, I would guess, by bringing up the idea of including glbt people. rutroh. My guess is, if you sit down with all those people you discussed this "lifestyle" thing with, fellowshiped and prayed together, you're still going to have division, conflict. Why? Each usually accuses the other of not really wanting to know Gods will (i.e., "the truth"). Sheesh, if I had a dollar for every time I was told that I could retire...to bedlam, no doubt .
I look at others in the church and out like this; They are entitled to their faith as they see fit. I don't have to be right. I have no idea what brought a person to the place of belief or lack they exist in but as adults we, they whomever are entitled to their choices. As far as knowing Gods will, because most here are from and involved in a Judeo Christian faith and that is my personal experience I prefer to limit the choice of holy books to the Bible. Using this book we can find Gods will in principal. What people generally want is some psychic experience to confirm some decision they need to make. A silly way to approach life in my opinion. People that want to know Gods' will usually are looking for a shortcut to find it.
My real objective at church is to make sure we as believers love period. I don't think you have to agree with others to have fellowship and love one another. I will never convince some that GLBT is not sin. But if we love others without condemnation it may be as far as some ever get. I want to love others without an agenda and let God take care of their call, their heart, their issues, whatever. .

"2) Also I believe in the very spirit of God that fills us when we believe. Christ said the comforter would come and I believe that is the Holy Spirit.
What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, pick one, they all work and can support their argument with scripture.
My personal experience only tells me that when I accepted Christ something changed inside. I walked a different walk, cared about others differently and began a journey that will not be complete until I see all things clearly... When I see Christ face to face."

"What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation." Yeah, I've observed that as well . It seems there was a time, written about in the bible, when the 'true' followers of God had signs and wonders to back up their beliefs and assertions that God was with them. Now, we have "scripture in an endless array of interpretation," many try to make that their "proof" that God is with them. In the absence of a miraculous manifestation of God's Spirit, what we are left with is our humanity. I could not honestly say I knew the difference between God's Spirit and my intellect, emotion, or imagination. Because of that, it seemed to me that for me to attribute my beliefs about God to God was taking God's name in vain.
I have been known to anger a few fellow believers by stating the mind is an incredible thing. You are not the first to struggle with the conflict of what is just my thoughts and what is Gods spirit? Your personal hunger and journey will have to decide that for yourself but as I told one of my sons after his first year in college. He and I were talking and he said he didn't really know if he believed in God. I said that's good but don't stop with the wonder, investigate. God does not freak out at our questions, lack of belief or lack of faith. He just calls us to himself.
I would say taking Gods name in vain is more about how we live than what we say.

[Manatee]

Part of the problem (with understanding what "spiritual" means) is that, at least in Christian tradition, it refers to the Holy Spirit. This means that it is a complex idea: just as complex as saying that something is "Christ-like," because the Holy Spirit is a person, as complete and manifold as Christ. So to be "spiritual" means to have a relationship with the Holy Spirit -- by this I don't mean you have to stick up your hands and babble in tongues, but that you enter into a relationship of prayer with the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, many people (particularly in certain Pentacostal or Charismatic movements) are eager to show off their relationship with the Holy Spirit, to boast of it, in a sense, both to others and to themselves, and this can lead to getting carried away: to thinking that one's own thoughts are the product of the Holy Spirit. For me, I can say nothing about most of the spiritual gifts: I have never spoken in tongues, and I don't think I could lay claim to the rest either. The one that I do have some experience with is Understanding, by which I mean something along the lines of insight. The difference in the case of this particular gift (between the action fo the Holy Spirit, and the action of my own mind) is that the Spirit provides moments of insight, glimpses into mysteries that I haven't penetrated through any logical methodology, and that I couldn't have arrived at by the strength of my own intellect. Rarely are these in the form of dogmatic beliefs, but rather they deepen some aspect of established dogma -- like the Trinity, or the Eucharist -- or else they help me to understand some other aspect of life. You ask what can be interpreted in this light? The scriptures, obviously, but not exclusively. One of the great Saints of the early Church once pointed to the world that God had created and said "If I wish to read the word of God, I need merely look at His creation." Which is not to say that any higgledy-piggledy nonsense that we can justify by allusions to nature is necessarily accurate, but that if you meditate on the natural world, and open your heart to the Holy Spirit in your meditations, that you can learn something of God.
In general, I would avoid trying to answer questions of doctrine in this way, because it is a recipe for confusion and in-fighting, with everyone shouting "But I know it is true, by the power of the Holy Spirit," and this is both foolish, presumptuous, and scandalous. It drives people away from Christianity, because if there is only one Holy Spirit, He can hardly be saying contradictory things to different people. I would focus instead on developing a relationship, and in approaching the Spirit as someone who can help you to understand things in your life -- whether or not they apply to the lives of others -- and to understand the world. It is my belief that we are all created unique so that we may all see God's work in a different way, that we may open our eyes and develop that sight, so that in the end, when we are gathered up in the communion of Saints, we will all be able to look upon the face of God from a multitude of different perspectives, and each increase His glory for all of the others. This means that the Spirit will open different truths to you than to other people (not contradictory -- but in the way that a scientist is right when he penetrates the mysteries of the rose's biology, but the medieval is also right when he sees the passion of Christ reflected in the outer shape of the rose.) Your relationship with the Holy Spirit will be unique, and it will also take time to come to recognise and understand this relationship (it is said, and rightly so, that the Holy Spirit is the most difficult of the Three persons to understand, because the Spirit is the love of the Father and the Son made manifest as a seperate person, and this is a mystery that our limited minds are never going to be able to wholly compass.) In time, with perseverence, your relationship with the Holy Spirit will develop, and you will be able to tell the difference between your own thoughts and feelings, and those that come from the Spirit. Do not be impatient with this. It usually takes many years -- even though life in the spirit movements tend to try to convince people that it happens in one flash of fire falling from heaven -- this does happen, but it is not normative and almost never happens to people who expect it. And if you are scandalized by people trying to justify their beliefs with arguments from spirituality, ignore them. Your relationship with God does not depend on what they say (do not be dismissive, or assume that their spirituality is false or stupid -- which is pride -- but realize that they may be more confused than they appear, or that they are seeing things from a perspective that, at least in this life, will remain imcompatible with yours.)