Are you really wanting a dialogue?

[Peter Z]

Please be honest about your intentions of only wanting a media platform:

Dr. Paul Conn has been in regular contact with the directors of Equality Ride since the time they stated their intention in mid-January to visit Lee University. The group asked for access to classes, chapel, open forums, and an evening concert on campus by what it bills as "a gay Christian singing duo," none of which were acceptable on the Lee campus, Conn said. He takes issue with the group's claim that they want dialogue, saying he offered a private meeting with Lee administrators and an opportunity for public debate. "There is no commitment to dialogue by this group," he said, "they only want to deliver their point of view."

[Jamie McDaniel]

What GLBT people want is equality, Peter.

Dialogue, connecting with people who need to see our faces, distributing educational resources, and getting the media to carry our demand for justice -- these are all part of using nonviolent methods to bring about positive social change.

[Peter Z]

Allow me to state upfront that I think it is a shame that GLBT people have been victimized with hate-crimes. There is no place for that in a pluralistic society (or any society for that matter). With that said...

With the expection of same-sex marriage, where is your equality being oppressed? (Please, no rhetoric!) Because you cannot attend a university like Lee or Liberty? I ask, why would an openly GLBT want to attend these universities? You would only be inviting ridicule and condemnation. It is like you are picking a fight to show how oppressed you are.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Allow me to state upfront that I think it is a shame that GLBT people have been victimized with hate-crimes. There is no place for that in a pluralistic society (or any society for that matter). With that said...

With the expection of same-sex marriage, where is your equality being oppressed? (Please, no rhetoric!) Because you cannot attend a university like Lee or Liberty? I ask, why would an openly GLBT want to attend these universities? You would only be inviting ridicule and condemnation. It is like you are picking a fight to show how oppressed you are.

Because ridicule and condemnation are not of God; those who show this to glbt people lack a basic understanding of God's love, as well as the great commandment. It has already been demonstrated that there are students attending these universities who are glbt. Would you invite them to leave? Your statement demonstrates that you know these colleges are behaving inappropriately toward glbt students. could it be your resentment of the equality ride is because they threaten to expose the shameful discriminating policies of those universities?

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Allow me to state upfront that I think it is a shame that GLBT people have been victimized with hate-crimes. There is no place for that in a pluralistic society (or any society for that matter). With that said...

With the expection of same-sex marriage, where is your equality being oppressed? (Please, no rhetoric!) Because you cannot attend a university like Lee or Liberty? I ask, why would an openly GLBT want to attend these universities? You would only be inviting ridicule and condemnation. It is like you are picking a fight to show how oppressed you are.

We are standing up for our human dignity and the inalienable rights that are guaranteed us by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, but denied us by extremists.

Though some states offer various protections, on a national level:

We are denied the right to marry and the hundreds if not thousands of rights & responsibilities that come with marriage.

We are denied the right to adopt & foster children.

We are denied protection from employment discrimination.

We are denied the protection afforded by hate crime legislation.

We are denied protection from housing discrimination.

And yes, we are denied protection from educational institution discrimination.

[NathanATX]

I decided to go to ORU because I absolutely loved the school. Was it going to be a risk? Most certainly. I would have to outsmart the idiotic homophobes for four years.

But, I felt that's where God was leading me.

Why do I have to suffer the potential harm of the ORU gestapo simply because I'm a gay christian? If I were a black christian, such treatment would not be tolerated.

[Emproph]

{I wrote this to my mother in an e-mail before inviting her to a PFLAG meeting, she’s catholic, and she is coming with, fortunately delightedly}

Peter, Imagine for a moment that for all of your life you were told that your love for another was nothing more than a chosen sexual behavior. And in response to your clarification that it was indeed love and you didn't choose it, you were then dismissed as being too stupid to realize that you were actually attracted to the opposite sex, but just don't realize it because delusion is both the cause and effect of your "chosen" condition.

If you consider yourself a Christian, that's just more proof of how delusional you are, because if you were a true Christian you'd be fully heterosexual. Throw in the "facts" that your perversion makes you a child molester, and your taking offense to being construed as perverted is an attack on Christianity and religious freedom and that you are also therefore a hypocrite for wanting to be tolerated but not wanting to tolerate being called perverted. And you're not understanding that you're perverted is portrayed as just further evidence of how delusional you really are.

Then imagine having all of the results of such oppression thrown back in your face and used as further proof of how perverted you really are. Your "chosen" perversion leads to drug addiction/alcoholism. You're not allowed to get married so you're also promiscuous. Being suicidal or actually committing suicide is also blamed on your 'lifestyle choice.' Then imagine that all of these messages are also packaged as "Telling the Truth in Love," and if you don't accept all that "truth in love" you're going to burn in hell forever.

Imagine that your fight to secure the freedom to disagree with that definition of perversion (inferiority), is construed as attacking “religious freedom” through the use of “activist judges” with the “agenda” to “impose your beliefs on society” (to exist).

Then marinade all of that with the constant drilling that you are an "abomination" of creation in eyes of God. Imagine that all those making the claim that you "chose" this by going out of your way to embrace the most revolting thing imaginable also claim to have "chosen" their sexual orientation by doing absolutely NOTHING AT ALL (Jerry Falwell and Joyce Meyer - Chris Mathews and Larry King respectively). All in the name of all that is Good and Holy and True, God and Jesus. Imagine that and perhaps you can begin to understand where the feeling of oppression is coming from. (end of e-mail)

Have you been the first one to walk in on the bloody suicide of someone you love? would the note explaining his turmoil over being unchangeably gay be something you would consider to be “picking a fight to show how oppressed he was?” Would you take comfort in knowing you were biblically correct? That happens EVERY DAY. Sometimes without notes, and A-LOT MESSIER. Fathom it.

What kind of a Christian response to information of that caliber is defeating and repealing hate crime laws because they are “an attack on your religious freedom?” Or blaming the “gay agenda” for skewing studies and statistics as though no record of suicides and hate crimes equals no argument for protection. Does that sound like a Christian response to you? Are you aware of this?

And freedom to do what? They’ve already mastered the art of getting the “enemy” (those too delusional to know they are deluded) to kill themselves! The only “freedom” of religion I see in that context is the freedom to oppress with impunity in the name of Jesus! I don't see anything that could possibly be more perverted and disgusting that that.

So please, for my sake and others wounded like me, show us what it is that you and those you know are not seeing that we are seeing, because SOMETHING is NOT making sense, and people are being BADLY BADLY HURT everyday because of it.

[Zerbie]

Still reeling from Emproph's words. Wow. Nothing to add on to that. Just, yeah, that IS what it's like.

Where is equality being oppressed? You've gotten a lot of powerful answers already.

I could tell you dozens of stories - could fill a book with things that have been done to those around me, and some few that were done to me specifically, or that I witnessed.

Just a couple:

In the late 90s, for reasons I've long since forgotten, I let a doctor know I was involved in gay rights activism. Soon as I was out of the exam room he told his entire office staff that I was molesting children. I found out that he said this because one of his staff quit her job shortly thereafter and phoned me up to tell me about it. I'm glad she did, I never went back to that doctor. To this day, I am afraid of health care practitioners finding out about my involvement in activism, lest they should assume I am a criminal or something - and how might their attitude, if so, affect the care they give me?

Around the same time, a landlord from whom I was renting a garage apartment entered the apartment unexpectedly and found newsletters/print materials, etc. that indicated my involvement in gay rights activism. He threw me out immediately, in fact stood over me while I loaded my stuff into my car, staring hatefully the entire time. Perhaps he found my "sexual behavior" to be "immoral." Funny - I didn't know there was anything immoral about being a virgin. There was no place for me to go, and I didn't know what to do or where. Spent the night sobbing over the steering wheel. I contemplated suicide for weeks, interpreting the landlord's action as a sign that God did not want me to live. Somehow I managed to squeak through and survive - but my intense fear of being homeless and having to live in the car again (or worse, maybe on the street next time) did not dissolve until we bought our own house last year.

Ironically, I was involved in activism in hope of preventing these sorts of things happening to others. Not only did I not protect others from similar events, but I couldn't even defend myself when they happened to me. There was no anti-discrimination law (and in fact, there STILL isn't) so I didn't even have a right to sue the landlord for breaking the lease agreement (assuming I had $ for a lawyer, which being a student with about $400 in life-savings, I couldn't afford.) And in both cases, the doctor and the landlord, they acted out of a set of illogical assumptions about me, my worthiness, my values and morality, and presumably about my sexual behavior, all because they found out I was a little involved in activism.

[Peter Z]

your love for another was nothing more than a chosen sexual behavior.

My love for my wife is a chosen sexual behavior/emotion. I chose her, I choose her today, and I will continue to choose her.

Then marinade all of that with the constant drilling that you are an "abomination" of creation in eyes of God

I have never said this or thought this. You are created in the image of God. But, you were born an enemy of God and so was I! That image has been disfigured and is in need of restoral. That is what redemption is all about. We have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Christ's work on the cross provides the restoration that we all need.

So please, for my sake and others wounded like me, show us what it is that you and those you know are not seeing that we are seeing, because SOMETHING is NOT making sense, and people are being BADLY BADLY HURT everyday because of it.

One of my favorite authors/theologians is a man named Henri Nouwen. Nouwen recalls having homosexual tendencies as early as six years old. This is about the same time that he felt an overwhelming call to the ministry. From my research, I don't think that Nouwen ever acted on his homosexual desires. But, you can see his hurt throughout his writings, especially a book like The Wounded Healer. I would suggest reading some of his material.

I am sorry that you have been wounded. I cannot pretend to understand the struggle you deal with everyday. But, I do understand a little about redemption. I understand that Christ can make us a "new Creation." I understand that God is not the author of confusion. I understand that Jesus has promised us life and life to the full. You say that you believe in God and His son, Jesus Christ. I can accept that. You say that you were born this way. I can accept that we are all born into sin. You say that the Lord accepts you just the way you are. I can accept that, too. He accepts me just the way I am but he doesn't expect me to stay this way. The Lord expects me to grow more like Him everyday. I would like to say that I am doing the best that I can, but I fail. And when I fail I go to the cross. At the cross is where He makes all things new. He brings clarity to my confusion, hope for my life and restoration for my soul. I am not judging anyone on this board. I know that I am coming across as "just one more so-called Christian trying to turn you straight." I assure you that is not my intention. My intention is to get you to consider whether you might be wrong. I wrote this elsewhere and was challenged that I have not considered if I am wrong. Well, whoever wrote that did not read my entire statement. If I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. It would not affect my view of God, my relationship with my family, or my ministry. I just happen to believe Jesus when He says "narrow is the way." You can call me narrow minded all day long, but I'd be careful doing that with Jesus. Call me a right-wing (which I'm not!!!) evangelical (also not!!!) fundamentalist (definitely NOT!!!) for trying to have an orthodox hermeneutic of Scripture.


To NathanATX

We are denied the right to marry and the hundreds if not thousands of rights & responsibilities that come with marriage.

We are denied the right to adopt & foster children.

We are denied protection from employment discrimination.

We are denied the protection afforded by hate crime legislation.

We are denied protection from housing discrimination.

And yes, we are denied protection from educational institution discrimination.

Marriage - true, I actually do not have a problem with a civil same sex marriage. I personally think that any marriage outside of the church is not ordained of God. I also believe that someone like JLo or Liz Taylor have done much more harm to the institute of marriage than any loving same sex couple. But, name the rights and responsibilities you are losing. I am not aware of any additional rights that I have being married. Joint filing of taxes? Not a big deal. Hospital visitation rights? Just get on your story on CNN and you'll be fine.

Adoption/Foster Care - I have to agree with the mainstream here. Sorry. Children need a male and female influence in the home. Studies bear this out.

Employment - Depends on what kind of employment you are talking about. If you want to be the Youth MInister in a Baptist church then you should expect that you aren't going to get the job or will get fired if found out. That's common sense.

Hate Crime Legislation - You are afforded protection.

Housing Discrimination - If you are talking about renting I would have to say that it is unfortunate, but people have the right to rent their homes/apartments to who they wish. The free society goes both ways. If you are talking about buying you may have an argument. I am not sure of lending policies to non-married mortgagees.

Education - You can attend any public university you wish. Private schools should be allowed to decide who they want as their student body. Male, female, black, white, hispanic, straight, glbt, etc. You will respond that this should affect public assistance at these schools. Maybe you're right.

[revtj]

One of my favorite authors/theologians is a man named Henri Nouwen. Nouwen recalls having homosexual tendencies as early as six years old. This is about the same time that he felt an overwhelming call to the ministry. From my research, I don't think that Nouwen ever acted on his homosexual desires. But, you can see his hurt throughout his writings, especially a book like The Wounded Healer. I would suggest reading some of his material.

I believe Nouwen did act on his feelings. He was forced to be discrete and all evidence of his relationships are carried in the hearts and memories of those who knew him personally. (Source: Chris Glaser, student of Nouwen and author of Uncommon Calling - A Gay Christian’s Struggle to Serve the Church )


Can you see that it is grossly unfair to force a great spiritual leader like Nouwen to live in fear and extreme privacy when, if he had been str8, he could've been thrice divorced and remarried, had affairs with 5 floozies and everyone would've treated him like normal?

[Peter Z]

I find it interesting that his call to priesthood (and with it celibacy) occurs around the same time as his feelings of homosexuality. He suppressed his feelings whether gay or straight.

[revtj]

If he supressed his feelings it was because people like you had power over him, power enough to destroy all the good he did.

[Peter Z]

And, he was a better priest, teacher, author because of it. And don't use the "people like you" statement. That is hate speech and you should know better!

[revtj]

That is what I meant.

You are trying to define a dead gay christian man's lfe by your homophobia. For me, as a gay chaplain for whom Nouwen is a door-opener and hero, that's gaybashing.

If I were a str8 christian the Soulforce website would be alot like playing golf is to me as an effeminate gay man. It would bore the living daylights out of me.

Why are you gnawing on this bone, ranting and raving? You know where we stand, we know where you stand. You offered to exit 3 posts ago. What is it that you can't let go of???

[Joe Brummer]

To PeterZ
I think your views on same sex marriage and gays are in line with MLK's philopsophy of the beloved commuinity, where we may not all agree with each other, but respect and engage in each other with love....Bravo to you!

There are a few points you have made I feel are not in line with my beliefs, but I don't have time to address them, Sorry, just really busy. I also think you are viewing Soulforce in a shalllow light rather than a big picture, I will try to address this later, but I am pressed by time these days and wanted to give kudos where they are due.....I am happy you see the "beloved community" and are willing to be a part and let GLBT people be a part. That is awesome...I will try and write more later....

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

I actually do not have a problem with a civil same sex marriage.

Peter, I am glad that you are this far along, but you must understand that we could never ultimately accept such a situation where opposite-gender couples are seen as superior to same-gender couples.

Where would the church be today if the Pharisees (the ones who were part of the early church) had offered the Gentiles second-class citizenship in the church and the Gentiles took it thinking that was a good offer?

[SolInvictus]

Peter Z. - where did you get your data on gay adoption and gay marriage?

To review, here are some facts:

In Massachussets, where gay marriage is legal, the divorce rate went down (not up) & society did not become hedonistic or crazed.

The APA (American Psychological Assoc.) recently did studies along with adoption agencies, and found adopted children of same-sex parents were well adjusted, happy, and did not become "gay" as sexual orientation is not a choice.

Link: http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

[Peter Z]

You are trying to define a dead gay christian man's lfe by your homophobia. For me, as a gay chaplain for whom Nouwen is a door-opener and hero, that's gaybashing.

I'm not homophobic, I think that has been proven in my posting thus far. Nor am I attempting to bash gays. Nor am I trampling on the grave of Nouwen. It is directly because of the tension in his life that he was able to minister the way he did. I am sorry that you are unable to recognize this.

Nouwen CHOSE to enter a life of priesthood and celibacy from a young age. This was not forced upon him. Yes, he would have had to leave the priesthood if he acted on his pre-disposition to homosexuality and we would have lost an amazing theologian in the process. I think that Nouwen is a prime example of what to do with feelings of attraction toward the same sex. It may be a life of tension, but the Lord's calling is not an easy one. Ever read Jeremiah?

[Shep]

"quote" Adoption/Foster Care - I have to agree with the mainstream here. Sorry. Children need a male and female influence in the home. Studies bear this out.

Peter Z,
I just want to make sure I understand something about the above quote from your comment.
If a heterosexual divorced or widowed person who has children, (either the mother or the father) decides that they want to remain single, should the government give them the following ultimatum: Get married again, or give up the children to the state? Or are you saying that a male and female influence in the home is only necessary in the cases of adoption or foster care?

[revtj]

My dear, I have known a few priests in my day. What they render to Rome and to the Archbishop, and how they conduct their personal lives, is often different. When they attend Mass the morning after, they partake of forgiveness of sin. It's a regular habit for a whole lot of priests.

I am saying to you that I know Nouwen did not agree with the church's official teaching on homosexuality and he had more than once fallen in love. The relationships were honorable and spiritually renewing for him, though they could not last DUE TO THE CHURCH's HOMOPHOBIA.

The fact that he had to hide this and sanitize his writings after death does not make him some kind of cosmic virgin celibate nor an example for all gays in ministry. IT MAKES HIM A VICTIM OF OPPRESSION BY A CORRUPT, HOMOPHOBIC INSTITUTION.

Think what he could have gifted the church with, if like Luther, he could have had his Katharina (Charles?), a male partner like Sts. Sergius & Bacchus!

You want him to be a straight virgin because that's the only way his life is not tainted to you. But he was a man. A man who loved men. A sinner saved by grace and he was less than fulfilled because he could not fully bring to ministry who he really was; what good do closets do the poor, the hungry, the sick & the dying with whom he constantly was in pastoral relationships? Are those relationships tainted if he ever had gay sex?

It's like a reverse madonna/whore complex you're projecting onto gay men.