Return to ministry?

[antonyh]

I've never really broached this subject on Soulforce, but this is probably the right place to do it. I think the discussion could certainly help others as well. I am one of many who felt called into ministry, went to seminary and then ended up terminating this career path because of sexual orientation (went to an evangelical seminary). In my case I decided early on to cut my losses and to pursue a business career. This has been the case now for a decade.

If I am totally honest, I still want to be in the ministry. There is not a day that goes by where I don't feel that desire. I honestly don't know where to begin to make this happen and I still wonder if it is a wise decision given the animosity in the Church toward LGBT people. I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

I have contemplated attending the United Church of Christ and seeing if I could feel at home there. If I decide to move in this direction, it would be a five year project. Like I say, given my estrangement from the church, I am not sure where to begin...or even if I should begin.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I've never really broached this subject on Soulforce, but this is probably the right place to do it. I think the discussion could certainly help others as well. I am one of many who felt called into ministry, went to seminary and then ended up terminating this career path because of sexual orientation (went to an evangelical seminary). In my case I decided early on to cut my losses and to pursue a business career. This has been the case now for a decade.

If I am totally honest, I still want to be in the ministry. There is not a day that goes by where I don't feel that desire. I honestly don't know where to begin to make this happen and I still wonder if it is a wise decision given the animosity in the Church toward LGBT people. I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

I have contemplated attending the United Church of Christ and seeing if I could feel at home there. If I decide to move in this direction, it would be a five year project. Like I say, given my estrangement from the church, I am not sure where to begin...or even if I should begin.

Since the desire is there every day, I think you should go for it.

Researching it and putting some feelers out into various faith communities does not commit you to full-time ministry for the rest of your life, but if that IS something you might want, it's the first step towards finding out. And finding your right place.

Get out there and check out the UCC, since you've felt prompted.

It seems to me that Jesus had a bit of a major "beef" with the prevailing religious society of his day, so if you have a "beef with Christianity" that's all for the good. All that much more you have to give.

And you have a lot to give.

[Gennee]

Act upon the urge and go for it. Quite possibly, God is leading you in that direction. Pray for guidance while you move forward.

Gennee

[BenL]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

Antony,

As a person who has started seminary and left, I understand your hesitation. This will take prayer and consultation. Since you've put ministry on hold for 10 years, you now have time on your side. The "major beef" is probably a strength, as long as you can keep it from becoming a chip on your shoulder. There are certainly a lot of us glbt folks who need to be ministered to. We find ourselves often in positions of ministering to our pastors, who need to grow beyond the walls they have around them.

I can also understand your hesitation from a purely practical point of view. I know I would be afraid of being hurt again, of having my hopes dashed, of yet another rejection. But that's me. You may want to do some spiritual counseling first just to test the idea with someone you trust.

[paul]

Hi Antony,

A couple of thoughts, for what they may be worth to you. Perhaps that's why it's called "two cents?"

Who do you believe "called" you into ministry in the first place? If you believe it was God, did God ever rescind that call?

It seems to me there was a fair amount of "animosity" from the 'believers' towards Jesus' ministry. He also seemed to have a beef with them.

"If God be for you, who can be against you?" Well, lots of people actually, eh? But if you believe God is for you, will it matter to much that people are against you?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I have contemplated attending the United Church of Christ and seeing if I could feel at home there. If I decide to move in this direction, it would be a five year project. Like I say, given my estrangement from the church, I am not sure where to begin...or even if I should begin.

The word 'should' sounds like a guilt word. Or at least a signifiier or some 'uncooked' stuff lurking in the shadows.

My sense is that you won't 'know' anything until you put yourself out there in some way, and have 'real time' feedback via places and people. Doing this will clarify matters. In the end, the only persmission you need is your own.

[pnggrad79]

If you feel called, Antony, by all means pursue it to see exactly where God is leading you and to what He has called you to do. Otherwise, you may be sitting around the rest of your life wondering, what it? You will never know until you try. Gays and lesbians are a hurting community and need to comfort and guidance of other gays and lesbians who have found an anchor in their faith and can be of real assistance to those who have lost their way. If you want to do something part time, or unpaid to see if that is your niche, that might be an option. Just a suggestion. But I don't personally think God rescinds the call on a person's life, however, I do think it may not be what we think it is. The more you make yourself available the more you will know what you are supposed to do.

[antonyh]

Thank you for all the wonderful comments. Here are some replies:

Originally Posted by Zerbie

It seems to me that Jesus had a bit of a major "beef" with the prevailing religious society of his day, so if you have a "beef with Christianity" that's all for the good. All that much more you have to give.

Thanks Zerbie. This is insightful. I have a question. Do you know of any minister in an institutional setting that is really bucking the prevailing religious society? I know of one pastor that attempted it...Greg Dell in Chicago...and they suspended him until he came into a measurable level of conformity with the United Methodist Church. So I am left wondering if you could really be free to tackle the difficult aspects of ministry while being constrained in a denominational box. This critique extends to "progressive" pastors that maintain a professional politeness toward some of the hateful ways of their evangelical cousins. Religion is this untouchable category. This is the very criticism that Sam Harris and the cadre of atheists have with progressives. Would Jesus take an institutional church position today? Probably not. I think this is what makes Soulforce controversial and also hatecrimesbill.org. We're tackling religious based bigotry and it tramples on this understood nicety we're supposed to give religious people.
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Benl

I can also understand your hesitation from a purely practical point of view. I know I would be afraid of being hurt again, of having my hopes dashed, of yet another rejection. But that's me. You may want to do some spiritual counseling first just to test the idea with someone you trust.

Who do you believe "called" you into ministry in the first place? If you believe it was God, did God ever rescind that call?

I have to put food on the table. From that standpoint, ministry is definitely is a very high risk endeavor if you're gay. Period. Even if you're in a more progressive denomination, it can be risky. Look at the schism in the Episcopal church.

I used to believe God called me into the ministry. Now I am not sure it was God or just me. Who really knows? I guess I have the desire to do this because I want to see justice in the world and perceive that the church would allow me to devote my time to this instead of enriching the great corporation.

Originally Posted by Daniel

The word 'should' sounds like a guilt word. Or at least a signifiier or some 'uncooked' stuff lurking in the shadows.

You're right that this ministry issue is 'uncooked'. I have tried to nail it to the cross, but it keeps nagging at me. There is the obvious 8 years of my life I devoted to Bible College and Seminary that seems completely lost except for the excellent liberal arts education (at Seminary anyway). I guess it is hard to just put this to bed. There is an injustice here as anyone who has had to cut their losses in this way would say. That said, resolution is important, I agree.

Originally Posted by pnggrad

Gays and lesbians are a hurting community and need to comfort and guidance of other gays and lesbians who have found an anchor in their faith and can be of real assistance to those who have lost their way. If you want to do something part time, or unpaid to see if that is your niche, that might be an option. Just a suggestion. But I don't personally think God rescinds the call on a person's life, however, I do think it may not be what we think it is.

I would not classify myself as someone who has an anchor in their faith. I have an anchor in something, but it is much broader. I think you are right about "may not be what we think it is."

That is what I need to figure out for sure. I need to think way out side the box...one of the great gifts of the queer experience.

[BrentRichards]

I found this book to be somewhat helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Listening-Hear.../dp/0819215635

The approach of discerning call in community, rather than just as an individual, seems valuable to me.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

I found this book to be somewhat helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Listening-Hear.../dp/0819215635

The approach of discerning call in community, rather than just as an individual, seems valuable to me.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will pick it up and read it.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I used to believe God called me into the ministry. Now I am not sure it was God or just me. Who really knows? I guess I have the desire to do this because I want to see justice in the world and perceive that the church would allow me to devote my time to this instead of enriching the great corporation.

And I've mentioned it to various people here over the past year.

The Soul's Code by James Hillman

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...46673716&itm=1

It's definitely thinking outside the box material. Hillman's thesis is a riff on the ancient idea of the daemon- an experience that presents itself in childhood and reveals the Self to the individual in terms of it's involvement in the world.

I mention this book because whether you see yourself as being called by God or youself isn't as important - I think- in the long run. It's what you do with the stuff inside the 'container' called 'God' and 'myself' that important.

Thinking about your life as a big arch might be helpful. And this book does that. And rather than 'nail' this calling to the cross, how about giving it some room to breath? My sense is that this kind of expression of the soul has it's own life.

Heck. You could start your own ministry, rather than fit into anyone else's box.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Daniel

And I've mentioned it to various people here over the past year.

The Soul's Code by James Hillman

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...46673716&itm=1

It's definitely thinking outside the box material. Hillman's thesis is a riff on the ancient idea of the daemon- an experience that presents itself in childhood and reveals the Self to the individual in terms of it's involvement in the world.

I mention this book because whether you see yourself as being called by God or youself isn't as important - I think- in the long run. It's what you do with the stuff inside the 'container' called 'God' and 'myself' that important.

Thinking about your life as a big arch might be helpful. And this book does that. And rather than 'nail' this calling to the cross, how about giving it some room to breath? My sense is that this kind of expression of the soul has it's own life.

Heck. You could start your own ministry, rather than fit into anyone else's box.

Thanks for the recommendation. It looks like a great book. Start my own ministry...unsupervised?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Thanks for the recommendation. It looks like a great book. Start my own ministry...unsupervised?

Yeah.....why not?

I guess it all depends on how one defines ministry.

And I don't know about you, but as I age, I really don't need someone looking over my shoulder. I mean, who looks over the Pope's shoulder?

I say be your own Pope.

He's a big ol' queen after all!

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Yeah.....why not?

I guess it all depends on how one defines ministry.

And I don't know about you, but as I age, I really don't need someone looking over my shoulder. I mean, who looks over the Pope's shoulder?

I say be your own Pope.

He's a big ol' queen after all!

Pope Antony...Pope Daniel...want to co-pope with me?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Pope Antony...Pope Daniel...want to co-pope with me?

I don't share power! You'll have to form your own denomination. Those red heeled shoes are mine!

[andrewlittle]

There is a process called, by some, a Discernment Meeting. I used this process when I was wrestling with my call. Basically the problem I had was whether the call was from God, my inner desires or the unterior motives of others. I asked myself, "what would God want with yet another recovering (?) control freak in the pulpit, especially one who was a recovering addict, alcoholic and power-monger?"

The process is best described as a listing and hearing session (harking to the other posts), but relies on the listening abilities of a few trusted people, not all of whom should be biased towards supporting you. Just like in Spiritual Direction, they listen to you and ask probing questions about what you say - not what they think about what you said. If you said, " I have a beef with the church", they could say "describe your feelings about the church" or "why do you call it a beef?" or "what do you mean by church?", but not something like "don't you think it's judgmental to have a beef with the church?"

I know that's a weak example, but I hope it gets the point across. My session lasted 5 and 1/2 hours and involved 5 listeners/questioners. In the end they did not give an opinion. That was between me and God. The idea is to pull out of you what you already know, or what God intends for you to learn about yourself and the call.

For me, it was an incredible experience.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

There is a process called, by some, a Discernment Meeting. I used this process when I was wrestling with my call. Basically the problem I had was whether the call was from God, my inner desires or the unterior motives of others. I asked myself, "what would God want with yet another recovering (?) control freak in the pulpit, especially one who was a recovering addict, alcoholic and power-monger?"

Just a general comment. I would say that these life experiences are what shape you into a great minister.

The process is best described as a listing and hearing session (harking to the other posts), but relies on the listening abilities of a few trusted people, not all of whom should be biased towards supporting you. Just like in Spiritual Direction, they listen to you and ask probing questions about what you say - not what they think about what you said. If you said, " I have a beef with the church", they could say "describe your feelings about the church" or "why do you call it a beef?" or "what do you mean by church?", but not something like "don't you think it's judgmental to have a beef with the church?"

I know that's a weak example, but I hope it gets the point across. My session lasted 5 and 1/2 hours and involved 5 listeners/questioners. In the end they did not give an opinion. That was between me and God. The idea is to pull out of you what you already know, or what God intends for you to learn about yourself and the call.

For me, it was an incredible experience.

That would be a great exercise to go through and I am sure would clarify many things. Were you in the Quaker church at the time or were you just using the quaker tradition?

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I don't share power! You'll have to form your own denomination. Those red heeled shoes are mine!

I'd give you your own wing at the Vatican

[BenL]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

The process is best described as a listing and hearing session (harking to the other posts), but relies on the listening abilities of a few trusted people, not all of whom should be biased towards supporting you. Just like in Spiritual Direction, they listen to you and ask probing questions about what you say - not what they think about what you said. If you said, " I have a beef with the church", they could say "describe your feelings about the church" or "why do you call it a beef?" or "what do you mean by church?", but not something like "don't you think it's judgmental to have a beef with the church?"

Whenever an Episcopal parish sponsors a candidate for ordination, it has to form a discernment committee, which sits with the candidate multiple times over a period of time to do just this kind of discernment. It only works well if everyone, including the candidate, is honest and open to the Spirit. If it's a love-fest, with all the candidate's favorite parishioners, then it tends to be a rubber stamp and misses a great opportunity to focus the candidate's sense of calling. If it's made up only of people who are grudging in their support, the candidate ends up defending everything she/he says, which can be wearing and frustrating. So, the makeup of the committee is crucial. Objectivity and a little worldly experience are important ingredients along with the honesty and openness mentioned above. This kind of exercise can be used outside of an institutional setting if you can find willing participants. It's best done in a retreat setting, that is apart from the rat race most of us find ourselves caught up in.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I don't share power! You'll have to form your own denomination. Those red heeled shoes are mine!

Ha! I'll fight ya for 'em!

I've waited my whole life for them to tap me for Pope. When are they gonna figger it out? I'd set the church straight. . . err, well, maybe not ***strai---ght***. . . .