Bible study

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

There is much more to say but basically I gave them the pamphlet What the Bible says and doesn't say about Homosexuality and said that while I don't agree with everything in the pamphlet it best represented my personal view and I could not go back to a view that I once had which was theirs and that the Church is wrong about this issue.

Another critical point here: You are right, you can never turn back from a BIGGER understanding of grace, can you? We have such a small idea of God, and when we glimpse just a little more, it changes us forever ...

People walked away from Jesus because they DIDN'T understand. Once they understood, they COULDN'T walk away: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68)

[u-dog]

Tim,

I don't have a lot to say here, other than that I am not surprised. I'm sorry that this has happened to you and I appreciate and admire your faithfulness to people (and to God) when it is not in your obvious self interest. God bless you.

[Zerbie]

Oh, our dear Sailor, I am so sorry.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

How arbitrary it is. All one has to do is reveal a belief in God's inclusive love and. . . this kind of thing can happen. It's an unbelievable shock when it happens to you.

I can't imagine all the various things you must be processing right now, having to cope with being told by your religious community that you, of all people, are deceived of an evil being that is using you to destroy their church. I can imagine that there is all kind of betrayal and disbelief that you may be feeling.

You may be alone in 3D *for the MOMENT* but you are not alone for real. You are in auspicious company. Who was maligned and persecuted for their love and their faith in love? Martin Luther King Jr was. Gandhi was. Most important example to you as a Christian, Jesus was.

You are not without a community. It may be "virtual" for the moment. But there are many, many other straight people in this world who stand for fairness, justice, kindness, and believe that God's love does not discriminate against gays.

Now might be a good time for you to read the testimonies of a variety of straight people who have stepped up to work on Soulforce's fall action, Seven Straight Nights. Go to the website and read what those straight leaders have to say about why they are standing up for LGBTs. I think it might bolster your spirits to see you have much fine company.

www.sevenstraightnights.org
You will find their statements by clicking on each city name.

I'm sorry for the tremendous blow you experienced this morning.

One thing it illustrates is how arbitrary the discrimination is: it can even be levied against you. All you did was reveal the faith in your heart and share your process with people you trusted and suddenly they treated you as "other." Heartbreaking that they cannot see what they do.

[carolb]

Originally Posted by sailaway58 View Post
Today is a tough day for me. Apparently when it was suggested that they had no problem with my Idea for a Bible study they hadn't realized the depth of my depravity. I was called in this morning to discuss the perimeters of the study.
I had suggested a while back they take a look at this site (Soulforce) if they were interested in what I had been reading and that this site for the most part is a good representation of the views I was, am, have formed.
Lon story short I am on my own. That doesn't surprise me, the only thing that cut me was when I was told I had been deceived by Satan and that Satan wanted to use this / me to destroy the church.
I don't mind not agreeing but I can't live with being the voice of Satan.
I stand with you and for you but this is just a web site and I could walk away, get in line and never bring this topic up again. I don't even have a gay person in my family.
I was told I could not share my views in any setting that is under the Church umbrella.
There is much more to say but basically I gave them the pamphlet What the Bible says and doesn't say about Homosexuality and said that while I don't agree with everything in the pamphlet it best represented my personal view and I could not go back to a view that I once had which was theirs and that the Church is wrong about this issue.
It's complicated but I am alone.
I am not a tool of Satan.
It is going to take me some time to get over this.

Tim - I'm not surprised at the response. I've been getting this same reaction, but I'd not gone as far as you as to suggest a Bible study. I've had dear friends who don't give a rip how I feel about the issue. Needless to say, no longer do I consider those as my friends. I know it is hurting you too - since you have taken on something so big. Thankfully, there are those who think differently, but they aren't in my circles. Guess what? I'm moving to new circles.

[wmanion]

Sailaway,
I am so sorry you have to even go through this. One day soon, God will finally be taken out of the box that man has been so determined to put him in. One day that they will know that no book can fully describe or set out to know exactly who God is and what he wants. At least Paul admitted that we see through a mirror darkly, and he did not have the knowledge that we have been given today. When Jesus went against the religious and ministered to the lepers and outcasts he was crucified. Unfortunately, the umbrella of the church has also done this to you. How can they even insinuate that a heart as good as yours is being led by the voice of the devil? It is an outrage, and I know you hurt. I will pray for stength for you and a healing.

Bill

[sailaway58]

One friend comes out that I have known and loved he and his family since 1973.
One guy that I care enough about to force myself to really look at an issue that two years ago I wouldn't have thought twice about judging any one of you here at Soulforce or anywhere else.
I agreed that it was not likely a choice but dammit you just can't practice that kind of stuff and go to heaven. (I thought)
One guy, that I will stand beside when the church rebukes him because I know his heart, I know he is a good man that loves the Lord.
I don't know if the rest of you are worth it but I know he is, and because he is I am brought to a place of affirmation and acceptance of the GLBT community.
I cannot look back, and the hurt will be fleeting although real, I will move on and not only will I be better for it so will those that chose to go with me.
My wife is great and my children are extremely understanding, my 12 year old daughter even "gets it"
When I told them their theology didn't match reality the wall was forever built to divide.
Enough.
Tim

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

One friend comes out that I have known and loved he and his family since 1973.
One guy that I care enough about to force myself to really look at an issue that two years ago I wouldn't have thought twice about judging any one of you here at Soulforce or anywhere else.
I agreed that it was not likely a choice but dammit you just can't practice that kind of stuff and go to heaven. (I thought)
One guy, that I will stand beside when the church rebukes him because I know his heart, I know he is a good man that loves the Lord.
I don't know if the rest of you are worth it but I know he is, and because he is I am brought to a place of affirmation and acceptance of the GLBT community.
I cannot look back, and the hurt will be fleeting although real, I will move on and not only will I be better for it so will those that chose to go with me.
My wife is great and my children are extremely understanding, even my 12 year old daughter even "gets it"
When I told them their theology didn't match reality the wall was forever built to divide.
Enough.
Tim

I'm really proud of you.
Your friend is truly blessed to have you.

[Pablo Rafael]

Tim,

I am touched almost to tears at your words.
Straight people like you are indeed a blessing and give hope to us all.
So many people here have gone through so much more suffering than I, and I know that, though others have shown so little love to them, God's love has no limit. To me the people of the LGBT community who post here are, like your friend, priceless.

Gracias, mi amigo.

Pablo

[keltic63]

That's tough. Sorry it didn't go as you expected or wished. Now, just imagine if you had told them that you're gay.......

[BenL]

My heart's breaking. I'm just catching up on the forums. Life and work have a way of getting in the way, y'know?

What do you do? Walk away? (I was tempted to say "sail away." ) Stand and witness? You'll know the right thing to do and the right time to do it. Don't tax yourself. Don't put your inner peace in jeopardy. Take your time. Pray. Breathe. Cry ... it's all right.

Jesus had it about right: Most people won't die for a friend, let alone for the marginalized. He did. And you're doing it. And for that I thank God.

We in the gay community all die these little deaths in the struggle to claim God's grace. Now you have shared that experience with us. This is not just about sex, Tim. It's about human dignity and claiming the love that God has for us. Discipleship is costly ... and rewarding.

I wish I was as fortunate as your friend to know you personally. He's one lucky guy.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by keltic63

That's tough. Sorry it didn't go as you expected or wished. Now, just imagine if you had told them that you're gay.......

Don't think I haven't thought about that. It is that very reason I cannot be silent.
One of the things they told me was if a person is gay to keep from sinning they must not practice it.
I'm think WTF, a celibate heterosexual is still a practicing heterosexual. If homosexuality is a sin then a celibate homosexual is still in sin. This is the barrier that is not understood.
Also no one wants to believe your stories. Who are the experts? People who live it or people who ignore it and call it a sin?
I am more angry today but I am clearly thinking. The bible study plans are not off I just need to be extra careful that I provide a safe environment for those that participate.
What I am experiencing is a good thing in the long run because when I was pushed to state what I believe I new I could not go back.
If ever there is a soulforce event in Indiana make sure I am on the agenda to sing my song!
This whole thing is strangely liberating.
I don't know if I should go to band practice tonight but I think I will.
Think I should sing the Queer Redneck song?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Don't think I haven't thought about that. It is that very reason I cannot be silent.

Also no one wants to believe your stories. Who are the experts? People who live it or people who ignore it and call it a sin?
I am more angry today but I am clearly thinking. ?

I knew you would have thought of that. It's incredibly ironic that outside "experts" , "ex-gays" who are so frequently (always????) gays in denial, and straight people are the ones they listen to, but not to the gay people. Oh no, a homosexual couldn't possibly know anything about what being gay is!

When I was a tyke, I was a weird kid, one of the things I did in elementary school was sneak into the adult section of the library and into my mom's psychology textbooks and read psychiatric case studies. I read a horror story of a gay man who was having electric shock therapy and the evaluating psychiatrist cited his remark that "if only I could just marry another man there would be no more problems" as an example of the extremity of his "disease." Horrified little me, 7 years old or so, I'm shaking my head in horror musing that the "psychiatric patient" is the only sane one in the hospital.

Your experience yesterday just illustrates how arbitrary these judgments really are, Sailor. Anyway, your anger is not without good cause, and I am glad to see your sense of humor out to play.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

One of the things they told me was if a person is gay to keep from sinning they must not practice it.
I'm think WTF, a celibate heterosexual is still a practicing heterosexual. If homosexuality is a sin then a celibate homosexual is still in sin. This is the barrier that is not understood.

THANK YOU!

[tdogg]

Sailaway,

I'm sorry that you had to endure the misunderstanding of those whom you respect. Like U, I'm not surprised either. I've experienced similar reactions from my fundamental conservative relatives. They know me better than I know myself, I can't possibly know what I'm doing, and it's all because I've allowed Satan to rule my life.

At first, I felt a profound desperation to change their mind. Now I just sorta shake my head and sigh. No hope in sight for them.

YOU and GOD are the only two to really know YOU and YOUR heart. Don't let anyone take away your faith, do now allow anyone to tell you that you don't know the Lord. You'll have to do your thing without them, for now at least. It's a long and sometimes lonely road, and sometimes it hurts even thought it's been going on a while. My only advice really, is to get out there and make new spiritual friends and acquaintences, and don't give up on your Bible study.

You do not need that church for you to do something worth while. God will guide you, and lead you to the right people and situation. Actually, no matter where you end up and who you end up with, God will be there to sort it all out. Wow, what a loss for those in that church. But they may never figure it out. So, you must go on and follow your heart and LOVE will definitely make a way.

[elcharrom]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Don't think I haven't thought about that. It is that very reason I cannot be silent.
One of the things they told me was if a person is gay to keep from sinning they must not practice it.
I'm think WTF, a celibate heterosexual is still a practicing heterosexual. If homosexuality is a sin then a celibate homosexual is still in sin. This is the barrier that is not understood.
Also no one wants to believe your stories. Who are the experts? People who live it or people who ignore it and call it a sin?
I am more angry today but I am clearly thinking. The bible study plans are not off I just need to be extra careful that I provide a safe environment for those that participate.
What I am experiencing is a good thing in the long run because when I was pushed to state what I believe I new I could not go back.
If ever there is a soulforce event in Indiana make sure I am on the agenda to sing my song!
This whole thing is strangely liberating.
I don't know if I should go to band practice tonight but I think I will.
Think I should sing the Queer Redneck song?

Did you sing it after all? Because like it saysin the bible the heaves rejoice when a sinner repents of his sins, and we just need to make them realize what our pain is.

I know alot of times they say things like "Well you only suffer because you choose to do so", uhuh that dont work for me that just tells me we need to try harder, gah I wish I was older so I could help you with your bible study dreams, becuase one thing still rings true amongst all this hatred, God sent his son Jesus Christ our savior for ALL of us, every single one of us is speacial, amazing, and loved deeply in their eyes.

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Another critical point here: You are right, you can never turn back from a BIGGER understanding of grace, can you? We have such a small idea of God, and when we glimpse just a little more, it changes us forever ...

I missed this point when I read through this thread earlier. A very profound point, Brent. It has just in the last few years when my thinking has shifted from seeing faith as "what" we know to "how" we view things. I believe that all of faith needs to be viewed through the lens of grace. All our dealings with others need to be actions of grace. This bigger understanding of grace has changed me forever.

Again I will recommend reading What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey. I was inspired greatly by this book. I have given away quite a few copies. I gave one to my mom; she was so inspired and changed that she did a Bible study on the book. A woman who was in her study was so moved that she started her own study. (She said that the book totally changed her life.) His whole message is that all we believe and do must be a part of grace.

Philip Yancey is a freind of Mel White. He still holds (at the writing of the book) that homosexualty is wrong, but his message is one of hope, not condemnation.

I realize I do have a small idea of God, and I pray that it grows bigger and more complete year by year.

Tu Amigo, Pablo