Gay man denied a funeral

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by keltic63

oops.....forgot to add this info from Paul Wagner:

Great googling!

I sent a snail mail letter to the family.

[tdogg]

Just another example of so-called Christianity in the organized religious sense of the word. Truly not anything to do with the Love that Jesus taught. Sad, sad sad.

[Steven E. Webster]

Folks,

I have to dissent from the opinion that we will end the spiritual violence of the Christian churches simply by withdrawing. I like Mel's witness of continuing to attend Falwell's church (while making his dissent known when appropriate.)

Equality Rider Joey Heath told us at the Reconciling Ministries Convocation last weekend that he was going to continue to attend the United Methodist Church that denied him membership, and he's bringing his boyfriend with him! I trust that Soulforce has trained him how to make his dissent known when appropriate and necessary.

As awful as it is, this case in Arlington, Texas is not at all unusual. There are plenty of Christians who think that this church was behaving in a perfectly understandable way. We won't disabuse them of their ignorant and mistaken belief that their spiritual violence is Godly unless we (and our family and friends) are in the pews raising a protest.

Jamie, I think it would have been appropriate to find ways to challenge your family members about the anti-gay church they are attending---what are they doing about the homophobia in that church? Maybe if they spoke up and got thrown out of the church, they'd learn something. Maybe if they stayed and continually challenged the anti-gay teaching, they might discover that others there agreed with them. I don't think it's wrong for them to attend this church--I think it's wrong if they do so while being silent when the church preaches homophobia.

I don't believe in giving financial support to an anti-gay church leadership--but one can designate one's church offerings to feed the hungry. I even am able to make designated gifts through my church to Soulforce (that can't happen everywhere). I'm sure it's true that my "wealth" is not much missed, but I have the peace of mind that I am not financially supporting my own oppression or that of others.

I think a lot of churches might change if friends and family of LGBT persons would stop being silent. However, if they just quietly leave the church, nothing will change there.

I'm going to buy a sympathy card and send it to the Arlington, Texas family.

Steven Webster

[Zerbie]

Both. Both what Jamie said and what Steven said, according to what each person feels they need to do according to their own style of expression. Staying and dissenting will help, but it will also help if many leave - NOT silently - leave, and state clearly WHY. If folks leave by the droves and many others stay and express dissent, that ought to start getting the churchs' attention.

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Both. Both what Jamie said and what Steven said, according to what each person feels they need to do according to their own style of expression. Staying and dissenting will help, but it will also help if many leave - NOT silently - leave, and state clearly WHY. If folks leave by the droves and many others stay and express dissent, that ought to start getting the churchs' attention.

I won't argue with you about the validity of both approaches (especially if one is not silent in either case). But if we believe both approaches are valid, then let's give real support to both approaches. As one who is staying and dissenting, I often feel too lonely. And, frankly, I'm not hearing much talk in the church about all those LGBT friendly folks who no longer attend--it's "out of sight and out of mind."

That said, I don't want to be scolding folks who've simply had enough battering from the church and need to find a more spiritually nurturing and supportive path--I just can't argue with that. At the same time I think of what that first Methodist and early abolitionist, John Wesley, wrote from his death bed to young Wilberforce who was just beginning his long campaign to end the British slave trade--"Do not grow weary in well-doing" (in more contemporary lingo, "don't let the bastards wear you down.")

Steven Webster

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

I think a lot of churches might change if friends and family of LGBT persons would stop being silent. However, if they just quietly leave the church, nothing will change there.

I think there's a lot to that... it does work some of the time... people are just to scared to speak up.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Both. Both what Jamie said and what Steven said, according to what each person feels they need to do according to their own style of expression. Staying and dissenting will help, but it will also help if many leave - NOT silently - leave, and state clearly WHY. If folks leave by the droves and many others stay and express dissent, that ought to start getting the churchs' attention.

It's happening slowly... but we have to keep going... the churches empty, but it'd be nice if more people knew why.


Steven, don't feel alone... fellow 'protesters' out there.. promise

---

Back to the point...

Reading this makes me sick.

I can see where from the eyes of this pastor they were doing the right thing, by making the offers they made. But not a single offer made came from the heart. This is the last thing this family needed to be dealing with in this hard time.

Plus you said that the grandmother (?) was not in good health...? is that right? My heart goes out to these people

---

I hear this of a christian church and promise to never become that.

[sailaway58]

I am not surprised at all that a conservative church would male this stand. To be disappointed would mean I expected something different to happen. These people aren't evil and I have spent my life with others much like them. We have a church in our county that split from the United Methodist denomination starting a new independent church because the UM denomination didn't take a hard enough stand against homosexuality. Their single common band of unity is homosexuality is a sin and they are standing against it.
When I talk to others about orientation the most common question is , "Well, what about pedophiles? is that their orientation?" I am pretty sick of the comparison.
So what the heck is my point?
I don't think that as I talk to others I will convince many that homosexuality in not a sin. 100% of the people that I talk to about it that are hardliner against it believe it is a choice.
Then you throw in bi and trans-gender and you make someones head explode!
What happened is wrong and I agree with kind support of the family but to launch an attack against the church will only strengthen their prejudice.
I like Steven's approach of staying and being a part of the church.
It would be harder for those that are openly gay and if you stay in a church that is anti-gay you better be living a Christ-like example among your friends there.
For me it is much easier because I can speak in theory and what ifs. I had a friend tell me last week if anyone else was telling him this stuff (homosexuality is overwhelmingly not a choice therefore not a sin) he would be angry.
Because it was me we had an open duologue.
The more Christians see homosexuals among them living a fruit bearing life, the more bridges we will see between us.
I can't pretend to know how events like these make some of you feel but I want to offer my friendship and let you know that there are some conservative Christians that are in the trenches with you.

[pnggrad79]

I wrote an email to the pastor of the church and told him he had an opportunity to show God's love for all people and chose not to. I like Steven's idea. If we as glbt people go to anti-gay churches, we in effect go sit at the lunch counter and not eat out back on the steps. I think it will be a powerful presence and show people that gay people do want to live a life of faith.

This was simply reprehensible what this church did to this family. It wasn't about the church, or their policies, it was about the family's wishes to honor and remember their son. This church used this man's death to proclaim to the world their hatred and misinformation. It was an embarrassment to them and one more example of how UNCHRISTIAN the church is today.

[Progo35]

This is a very sad, tragic issue. Surely there needs to be greater collaboration between churches and the gay community to resolve issues like this. You know, I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to from some sort of coalition between conservative Christains who see gay relationships as sinful and those that affirm them? Perhaps regular discussion in a forum that is specifically tailored to that issue would help.

Please keep us all apprised of further developments.

[keltic63]

Friends, I now have the snail mail address of Cecil Sinclair's sister. She is very appreciative of our concern. Again, I'll send it to you in a pm if you wish to send a note.



and I might mention that a few more of you could respond......it appeared that many of us wanted to send letters of support to the family, and well, I just haven't had too many requests for contact info.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

(Note to Christians of goodwill -- you must stop giving these people your attendance, money, and loyalty. More on that below.)

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

So many people who love and affirm their gay family members continue to feed both these mega-churches with their money and the egos of these pastors with their attendance.

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

I have to dissent from the opinion that we will end the spiritual violence of the Christian churches simply by withdrawing.

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Equality Rider Joey Heath told us at the Reconciling Ministries Convocation last weekend that he was going to continue to attend the United Methodist Church that denied him membership, and he's bringing his boyfriend with him!

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Staying and dissenting will help, but it will also help if many leave - NOT silently - leave, and state clearly WHY.

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

...if we believe both approaches are valid, then let's give real support to both approaches. As one who is staying and dissenting, I often feel too lonely. And, frankly, I'm not hearing much talk in the church about all those LGBT friendly folks who no longer attend--it's "out of sight and out of mind."

Steven Webster is the the type of guy that if you were both passing in your homework and you happened to notice that he had a different answer for a question than you did, you would glance over at your eraser and, even if you would never cheat, you'd find yourself wanting to change your answer.

To further this discussion, I'll share another little story. One of the gay couples we sometimes hang out with once asked me to go with them to this Baptist church they were visiting where the pastor was "just a real nice man." These good guys (who introduced themselves as gay to the pastor) are a little more conservative I think than me, and when I said that I didn't know if I really wanted to sit through one of their services, Joseph replied that he could get a nugget of truth from almost anywhere.

That's certainly a valid point. It's even in the Soulforce beliefs about my adversary, stated as "My adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have." But when I realized that this Baptist church was one of the more fundamentalist ones in town, I was like, no thanks, life is too short to be looking for nuggets in places where real precious metal hasn't been seen in decades and the people panning in the waters erupt into cheers over pyrite.

The struggle in the Methodist denomination, however, is a much different story from these fundamentalist churches and I absolutely support you and Joey (another great Soulforce guy) in your attendance of those churches.

Originally Posted by keltic63

...it appeared that many of us wanted to send letters of support to the family, and well, I just haven't had too many requests for contact info.

Thanks for the reminder, Steve. More people sending cards of support will counteract the message the church sent by denying the funeral at the last minute. I'm dropping this card in the mail along with a note thanking them for not accepting the church's offer in exchange for their silence about their loved one.

[Daniel]

The paster of the church that is....

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4200cfb.html

Arlington church defends decision not to host gay man's funeral
Arlington: Refusal of gay man's service based on church policy, not discrimination, pastor says
12:00 AM CDT on Monday, August 13, 2007

By JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News
jtrahan@dallasnews.com
ARLINGTON – The pastor of Arlington's High Point Church told his congregation Sunday that he stood by the church's decision to retract an offer to host a memorial service for a gay man, prompting applause from the hundreds in the crowd.

"With all the negative e-mail we are receiving right now, it seems that the homosexual community, God bless them all, are very organized," said the Rev. Gary Simons, referring to the reaction to the church's decision, which has generated news coverage around the world and lighted up gay and religious blogs.

"Before, when you type in 'Gary Simons' and 'High Point Church' in a Google search, you know, you could find us. But now, you really could find us."

Mr. Simons, the brother-in-law of Joel Osteen of the nationally known Lakewood Church in Houston, stood firm Sunday in his explanation of why High Point Church canceled the memorial service for Cecil Sinclair, 46, on Wednesday, a day before it was scheduled to take place at the church in southern Arlington.

He said that that the nondenominational church did not realize until the last minute that Mr. Sinclair, a Navy veteran who served in the Persian Gulf War, was gay and that his homosexuality would be mentioned at the service.

Although the two sides still disagree about what led to the offer being withdrawn, the service that ended up being held at an Arlington funeral home celebrated Mr. Sinclair's life and his relationships. His friends and family spoke of their pride in Mr. Sinclair "just as he was."

Church officials said they could not have hosted a service that condoned those sentiments.

"This decision was not based on hate, or discrimination, but upon principle and policy," Mr. Simons said Sunday to cheers from the congregation. "We cannot glorify homosexuality as a lifestyle."

Brian Ware, 32, said he was satisfied with the pastor's explanation after hearing it Sunday morning. "The Bible does say it's wrong," he said. "You wouldn't go to someone's house who doesn't smoke and smoke there."

The church had been praying for Mr. Sinclair's recovery from heart problems for six years at the behest of Mr. Sinclair's mentally disabled brother, who works as a janitor at the church and is also a member.

Members of his family, however, say that it wasn't until Mr. Sinclair's obituary mentioned that he had a life partner that they got a call that the memorial service was canceled,

Mr. Sinclair, who died Aug. 6 from an infection while waiting on a heart transplant, was not a member of the church. His family donated his body to science.

The family says that it should have been obvious to church staff immediately that Mr. Sinclair was gay. They say that Paul Wagner, 38, was introduced to a High Point audio-visual minister, who came to the hospital on Monday night, as the deceased's partner.

The fact that the family wanted the Turtle Creek Chorale, an openly gay and internationally famous group that Mr. Sinclair sang with for years, to perform should also have made it obvious, they say.

"I have fought for their right to hate me," said Mr. Wagner, a 16-year Army veteran who served in the Gulf War. "My only problem is how they used all those excuses before canceling the offer. If they had been upfront, we'd have been ticked, but we would have moved on."

The family also disputes Mr. Simon's statement last week that "very strong homosexual images of kissing and hugging" were among photos relatives submitted for a church-produced memorial slideshow. A CD of the photos the family says it gave the church does not include such images.

Mr. Simons did not address this point Sunday.

He did say, however, that the family "requested an open-microphone format to allow anyone in attendance to speak" and chose someone outside High Point to direct the service. "It appeared to the church staff that the family was requesting an openly homosexual service at High Point Church, which is not our policy to allow."

Tim Seelig, the longtime conductor of the Turtle Creek Chorale who led Mr. Sinclair's memorial service, said he was never contacted by High Point staff about his plans.

"They never asked what we were going to sing," said Dr. Seelig, who was a Baptist music minister before becoming leader of Turtle Creek two decades ago. "And 'Amazing Grace' – that's hardy a gay pride rally song. I'm real clear as to what is appropriate at a church memorial service and what is not."

At the end of the hourlong memorial service, Dr. Seelig addressed the controversy.

"We were supposed to be a couple of blocks away," he told the mourners. "We are here because the church deemed Cecil unworthy."

By their works shall you know them....

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

The paster of the church that is....

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4200cfb.html



By their works shall you know them....

Remind me never again to open threads like this during my PMS phase: I'm so livid right now I'm crying and can hardly sit still. If this Simons character were here in my house right now he'd be getting such an earful it would NOT be non-violent at all; this just makes me want to rant and call names. How can ANYONE justify this incredibly sickening behavior as "principle"?!? In addition to which they include the usual slams against the perceived vastly organized homosexual agenda-ists. They sound as anti-gay as you can get, dressed up with a candy outside so you don't know what they're hiding on the inside.

That hundreds could applaud such sick and immoral behavior is even more sickening.

I'll have to refrain from saying more, since I haven't seen much of my cheery or placid persona since the dentist office screw-up 10 days ago, so I've been just pissy pissy pissy - this could put me over the top.

All I can say is, their twisted, inhumane, cruel, and nearly evil behavior fits right in to the definition I've always held of "christians."

Ha! Just last night I was thinking that there didn't seem to be so much homophobia any more. Every time I don't see some for a while, I think there's less of it out there. This just ticked me off.

[Blockwell]

I saw this bit of news a few nights ago on national television. The news clip was accompanied with a photo of Gary Simons. (Below)

You’ll have to excuse me if I can’t hear you. My gaydar is ringing quite loudly at the moment. He’s just too precious for words.

[Emproph]

First, Soulforce Responds to Cancellation of Gay Navy Vet's Memorial 8-13-07

~~

Originally Posted by Blockwell

You’ll have to excuse me if I can’t hear you. My gaydar is ringing quite loudly at the moment. He’s just too precious for words.

Meow. Either that or the evil villian guy from those silent movies.

~~

And then this article entitled Eyes wide shut gave me a thought. It basically just put the article Daniel quoted into better context.

It seems incredible that no one at Arlington's High Point Church saw the obvious: that Cecil Sinclair, a dying 46-year-old Desert Storm veteran awaiting a heart transplant, was gay.

The church had reached out to Sinclair in his illness because his brother was a janitor and a church congregant. While Sinclair was in the hospital, High Point's audio-visual minister met Sinclair's life partner. When Sinclair died,church officials knew the Turtle Creek Chorale, a gay men's chorus, had been asked to sing at the funeral.

And from the article Daniel posted above:

The church had been praying for Mr. Sinclair's recovery from heart problems for six years at the behest of Mr. Sinclair's mentally disabled brother, who works as a janitor at the church and is also a member.

On top of everything else, 6 years and nobody knew that his brother was gay, and if they did, nobody spread the news far and wide that his brother was committing the "worst sin" on Earth?

Then Reverend Precious has the opportunity to deny and explain accusations of LIES, and not only does not, but takes the opportunity to joke about their listing on Google? What an additional slap in the face to this family. Heaping on the grief in the name of Jesus.

In regard to the 'villian' characterization, apparently the shoe fits.

"With all the negative e-mail we are receiving right now, it seems that the homosexual community, God bless them all, are very organized," said the Rev. Gary Simons

Read: "Homosexual agenda"

What an asshole.

[elcharrom]

Sad thing is, none of it is surpirising anymore =\

[mjules]

Every now and then, people make me nauseated.

Well, hm. In the interest of being very specific and non-judgmental: People's decisions to put aside human decency and compassion in favor of their own recreated morality code make me nauseated. I'm sure I'd like the people themselves if I could get past choices like that.

Because you know, whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a choice, I think everyone can agree that being a jerk IS.

*sighs*

I miss (the corporeal) Jesus. We need more people like him in the world.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by mjules

I miss (the corporeal) Jesus. We need more people like him in the world.

Well... That is sort of the whole REAL point of Christianity isn't it? to make a bunch more people who behave like Jesus? Why do so many so-called christians get derailed?

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Well... That is sort of the whole REAL point of Christianity isn't it? to make a bunch more people who behave like Jesus? Why do so many so-called christians get derailed?

Could it be - - - SATAN ! ?

Steven Webster