Mother Teresa Doubter/Doer

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Friends,

A simple google search reveals that a number of atheists take some glee in pointing out that Hitler had a Roman Catholic background.

In fairness, this may have been a reaction to claims by some Christians who wanted to smear all atheists by claiming that Hitler was an atheist.

Unfortunately for both sides the "facts" are probably more complicated than that--facts always are. I suspect Hitler was probably more concerned about promoting his own power than he was about religious piety. Anyway, here's a couple of Wikipedia articles that point out some of the complexity of this question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...igious_beliefs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion

Frankly, I suspect that Hitler simply used religion just as cynically as Karl Rove and George Bush use religion for political gain. Of course, the fact that religion can be used as a tool that way is no great recommendation for religion either. We really would do better as a nation of independent thinkers not ready to follow the leader like sheep.

But I don't believe that being religious precludes being an independent, critical thinker. Where I go to church being an independent, critical thinker is a requirement.

Steven Webster

Hitler was raised a Catholic. Simple and plain. What he believed in his heart is unknown to us. He was not an atheist as earlier claimed. This is also not on topic with the thread.

[Progo35]

It's perfectly on topic with the thread. You, Joe, allege that Hitler was Catholic. Steven posts an article questioning that. You now say that Hitler was raised Catholic, which, of course, is quite different from him being Catholic in adulthood. Many athiests were raised in Christian homes. But when they became athiests, they obviously stopped being Christians. Thus, it is not consistent to argue that Hitler's ideology had a basis in Catholicism because of what his parents taught him. Yes, we know that his parents were religious. So where Jeffry Dahmer's parents. Are you going to argue that Jeffry Dahmer's Christian upbringing was the motivation for his murder and consumption of human beings in adulthod? That he had sex with corpses because he thought that Jesus told him to? I think not.

I clarified my response to make it easier to follow. It wasn't rushed but it does seem a bit difficult to follow without re-reading it a few times.

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by Progo35

Although, Steven and Daniel, I don't think that it is fair or accurate to compare Bush to Hilter.

In fairness, I don't think it is fair or accurate to say that I compared Bush to Hitler. Both men probably put on their pants the same way, one leg at a time--but that doesn't mean that I'm saying they are exactly the same. What I am saying is that Bush and his neoconservative team make a cynical use of religion to manipulate people for political purposes. I've also mentioned other presidential candidates and wonder if they, too, are misusing religion. I'm not comparing any of them to Hitler--but Hitler was a politician, and he used religion for his political ends.

Religion is NOT a requirement for office in this country--that's in the Constitution. Shows of piety tell me nothing about a candidate's actual values or real qualifications. I would be impressed with a "compassionate conservative"--but, in my opinion, Bush used that phrase cause it played well in focus groups, not because the phrase had any real meaning in terms of his policies. Compassion seems to be distinctly lacking in his performance as President.

Personally, I think Bush IS a real embarassment for Christians. The man must have skipped Sunday School the day they talked about "Blessed are the peacemakers." That's why alot of United Methodists like myself are organizing to stop his Presidential Library from being located on the campus of Southern Methodist University.

When you think about it, Christians would be alot better off if politicians would keep their faith private--the ones who make a big show of their religion so often bring embarassment to the faith.

Steven Webster

[Progo35]

Moreover, I would like to add that if Hitler were an atheist, it wouldn't mean anything about athiests in general, anymore than the crusaders being Christians means anything about Christians in general or the 9/11 hijackers mean anything about Muslims.

From what I can tell, Hitler had a slightly pantheistic ideas about reality, insofar as he believed in an impersonal force, called the Geist, that had chosen him to exert its will as Germany's superman leader. This is documented well in Hitler's accounts of his assassination attempt and in his discussions of Nordic legend.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Progo35

Progo's Reply/Reflections in Respect to Whether Hitler used Religion like Bush:
Although, Steven and Daniel, I don't think that it is fair or accurate to compare Bush to Hilter.

I never mentioned Hitler in any of my posts. I did, however, reference the current occupant of the White House in regard to how belief can be misused.

[Progo35]

Steve-

Okay, I can see that. Thanks for clarifying the issue.

Daniel: Sorry, it was just that I/we were talking about Hitler and I thought that your comments about faith and Bush were related to that. So, excuse me.

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Progo35

It's perfectly on topic with the thread. You, Joe, allege that Hitler was Catholic. Steven posts an article questioning that. You now say that Hitler was raised Catholic, which, of course, is quite different from him being Catholic in adulthood.

Hitler was raised a catholic, while he disagreed publically with the church, he never denounced the church. There is no eividence to such he was of another demoniation. THis is also not to imply he was a good Catholic, but he never deounnced the church either.

Originally Posted by Progo35

Many athiests were raised in Christian homes. But when they became athiests, they obviously stopped being Christians. Thus, it is not consistent to argue that Hitler's ideology had a basis in Catholicism because of what his parents taught him.

Hitler held a connection with the Catholic church well into his adult life and his life in power. Please see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
Hitler also tried to incorporate the Churches into his new regime. On March 23, 1933 he had called them "most important factors" for the maintenance of German well-being. In regard to the Roman Catholic Church, he proposed a Reichskonkordat between Germany and the Holy See, that was signed in July. In regard to the Protestant Church, he used church elections to push the Nazi-inspired "German Christians" to power. This, however, provoked the internal opposition of the "Confessing Church".

Originally Posted by Progo35

Yes, we know that his parents were religious. So where Jeffry Dahmer's parents. Are you going to argue that Jeffry Dahmer's Christian upbringing was the motivation for his murder and consumption of human beings in adulthod? That he had sex with corpses because he thought that Jesus told him to? I think not.

We don't know his parents were religious, or at least I haven't seen that. I am not dignifying the dahmer comments with a response as they are pretty insulting.

Originally Posted by Progo35

I clarified my response to make it easier to follow. It wasn't rushed but it does seem a bit difficult to follow without re-reading it a few times.

Thank you for doing that.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

This is also not on topic with the thread.

This thread went off-topic long ago. Now I'm going to monitor it. It seems that many of the participants have long ago left the topic of the original post and seem to have some need to prove that they are "right." Unfortunately, given the discussion, it seems that no one can really "win" this argument. Continue your discussion, but if things remain as contentious as they appear to be now, I will lock this thread.

keltic,
your loving moderator

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by keltic63

This thread went off-topic long ago. Now I'm going to monitor it. It seems that many of the participants have long ago left the topic of the original post and seem to have some need to prove that they are "right." Unfortunately, given the discussion, it seems that no one can really "win" this argument. Continue your discussion, but if things remain as contentious as they appear to be now, I will lock this thread.

keltic,
your loving moderator

I cannot speak for others, but my intention has never been to win an argument, but have my argument understood and respected. I would hope that is also the case with others in this thread.