Putting the "ho" in Idaho....

[dsdrane]

Senator Craig.

Republican senator from Idaho.

Arrested.

In a men's room.

Discuss.

[paul]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Senator Craig.

Republican senator from Idaho.

Arrested.

In a men's room.

Discuss.

Yeah. the "discuss" was always one of my favorite events in the Olympics.

[dsdrane]

I always preferred the javelin, myself.

[paul]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

I always preferred the javelin, myself.

or wrestling!!! (you do know how the ancient Greeks did that er, sport?)

Okay, whew, back to Craig.

I feel sorry for the guy. A classic closet case. I think restroom sex is the desperate act of a closet case...hidden and anonymous (unless you get caught).

[sailaway58]

Some times it might feel good to see someone fall that has stood against you but this kind of fall hurts everyone but the conservative right.
One more person to point to and generalize about you "deviant homos".
Like Paul I see this wounded man that has never accepted who he is. It's a sad story of a man's life.
It should be more evidence that orientation is not a choice but to the right it's just another pervert to come out.
Sad sad sad.
On the other had he may vote Democrat next time.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Some times it might feel good to see someone fall that has stood against you but this kind of fall hurts everyone but the conservative right.
One more person to point to and generalize about you "deviant homos".

Firstly, you bet your buttons it feels good. I feel bad for the man, but I feel much worse for the people he and his actions and words have hurt over his lifetime.

And I disagree with your conclusion that this will hurt everyone but the Radical Right.

Lewd behavior is lewd behavior and has nothing, ipso facto, to do with gay people or gay rights. I think it's especially poignant to remember that many (most? does anyone have stats on this??) times it is ostensibly straight guys -- married with kids -- involved in this type of public cruising.

This hurts the Right where they live: their values. Do they rally around the besieged Larry Craig or do they throw him to the wolves? The fact that they have to go through that thought process -- to the extent they are capable -- offers some chance, however remote, of growth.

[paul]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Some times it might feel good to see someone fall that has stood against you but this kind of fall hurts everyone but the conservative right.
One more person to point to and generalize about you "deviant homos".
Like Paul I see this wounded man that has never accepted who he is. It's a sad story of a man's life.
It should be more evidence that orientation is not a choice but to the right it's just another pervert to come out.
Sad sad sad.
On the other had he may vote Democrat next time.

Hiya Sailaway.

On the other had he may vote Democrat next time.[/

I won't hold my breath. Consider Ted Haggard. Repressed gays often go farther into the closet when some would "out" them. If you read the articles about Craig, he is in complete denial...at least in public. Voting is a matter of public record, so, like Ted I would see him increasing his efforts to 'prove' to everyone that he is not gay.

There is a reason that some gay people engage in anonymous sex. More than their not wanting others to know about their being gay, they don't want their own selves to 'know' it even more.

[Zerbie]

I'm with Paul on this.

It's very sad. Take the Ted Haggard's of the world - they are running so far and fast from themselves, I cannot even imagine it. I feel deeply sad for them, but at the same time, if they are standing against innocent people, then those actions must be stopped.

I can't say it feels at all good though, because that could easily have happened to any number of forum members, had we only been pushed past a breaking point and chosen differently in order to survive, psychologically.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Discuss.

But the peach colored font is intriguing.

I sound like a shredded wheat commercial.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I can't say it feels at all good though, because that could easily have happened to any number of forum members, had we only been pushed past a breaking point and chosen differently in order to survive, psychologically.

However, I doubt any forum members have used their considerable political power to help unjustly malign and keep disenfrancised an entire group of American citizens.

[Dash]

The public fall of those who lord their dogma over society brings an auspicious confrontation with hypocrisy. As a fundamental moral hinge upon which the gates of justice turn, hypocrisy, and the response to it offers potential for veritable seismic shifts in the social landscape.

For me there is the potential for great rage as I consider the long denial of basic rights...the attacks upon our moral character...the long refusal to hear us...and the contorted logics applied against our cries for justice and mercy. As I consider the weariness of a long struggle to rise against adversaries who make it a life's work to press us down, seeing one more example of the hypocrisy that inheres in that dogma stretches my long patience painfully.

Sometimes, well beyond rage, hypocrisy's revelation inspires laughter...emotions stretched past safe limits are released in great guffaws of pent up relief. We laugh at their fall, for we can neither weep nor explode. Under normal circumstances, we would not rejoice in the fall of a closeted victim, but our joy to see the crumbling of that moral fortress from which so many missles have been fired upon us bleeds through the boundaries of our compassion.

The response of the fallen one to their own revealed hypocrisy ought to be humility and turning away from their hypocritical ways. Should they not embrace Truth...the feet at which every knee must bow? The false mask behind which they have hidden is ripped away. Will they take up the mask again, or will they accept that the face they own is the same as those they oppose? By means of a great pretense, they hoped to avoid the cruel judgment they rendered unto others, and now it has returned upon them. It is a moment of power when the Golden Rule speaks it's wisdom clearly to the oppressor.

The response of our adversaries? Well, by jettisoning the fallen one, they may try to hide the cracks in their moral fortress. More missles will be lobbed, and judgment will continue despite the loss of some moral high ground.

In the last year or so, however, I have twice witnessed a more remarkable response: the honoring of the hypocrisy of the hypocritical. The argument goes, "Even though they were not living the way they should, still they had the courage to stand up for what they believed; and thank God they did, for we needed their support. Lord willing, they will continue to support our cause." They imagine that it is not even hypocrisy. So long as the fallen one is loyal to the moral flag they fly in the face of society, any (even widespread) inability to live by its dogma is irrelevant.

Dogma is a tyrant that would oppress everyone...even (and perhaps especially) the oppressor.




(or something...)

[u-dog]

Is Dash as a good a kisser as he is a writer? Cuz if he is? I ain't never feelin sorry for you again about ANYTHING.

Dash, that was beautiful !!! You are so eloquent it makes me want to cry.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Is Dash as a good a kisser as he is a writer?

[Yes.]

[Zerbie]

Oh sweeties, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that as a criticism of anyone's reaction (goodness knows I'm falling off my own hinges lately and am full of bitterness over the things that are weighing on me.)

No of course I wasn't meaning to imply that anyone here has done such things to the community! I'm sorry. It didn't occur to me that what I said could hurt or offend anyone here.

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. I see the charade too, and I'm angry at it too. I've also laughed when I've been sad or disturbed or surprised, at things that weren't technically "funny." There was even a time in my teens when I saw a movie with a lot of gay-bashing which upset me so much that every time it happened, my emotions erupted in nervous laughter, close to vomiting, and after the movie someone came up to me and glared, "Bitch!"

Really sorry, David and Dash. I love both of you very much.

[Emproph]

Like after a roller-coaster ride, or after laughing after a really, reeelly funny joke.
But this is more special, it's sickening in a very unique way.

[SNIP]

Originally Posted by Dash

I have twice witnessed a more remarkable response: the honoring of the hypocrisy of the hypocritical. The argument goes,

"Even though they were not living the way they should, still they had the courage to stand up for what they believed; and thank God they did, for we needed their support. Lord willing, they will continue to support our cause."

They imagine that it is not even hypocrisy. So long as the fallen one is loyal to the moral flag they fly in the face of society, any (even widespread) inability to live by its dogma is irrelevant.

Dogma is a tyrant that would oppress everyone...even (and perhaps especially) the oppressor.




(or something...)

1. -It compells me to love my enemy (ew gross) no surprize there.
2. -It does so in an entertaining way (is he alway this poetic David?) sickeningly sweet, too much candy, blah blah.
3. -But it's also presented in a way that is acceptable to me.

And that's the part that bugs me.

I don't HAVE to accept anything about it, but by the time I got done reading that, I WANTED to accept it.

I wanted to feel good about them. And since I hardly ever ever do, this is what gives me an upset tummy..

He makes Luke 6:27 perfectly digestible...

[Dash]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh sweeties, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that as a criticism of anyone's reaction (goodness knows I'm falling off my own hinges lately and am full of bitterness over the things that are weighing on me.)

No of course I wasn't meaning to imply that anyone here has done such things to the community! I'm sorry. It didn't occur to me that what I said could hurt or offend anyone here.

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. I see the charade too, and I'm angry at it too. I've also laughed when I've been sad or disturbed or surprised, at things that weren't technically "funny." There was even a time in my teens when I saw a movie with a lot of gay-bashing which upset me so much that every time it happened, my emotions erupted in nervous laughter, close to vomiting, and after the movie someone came up to me and glared, "Bitch!"

Really sorry, David and Dash. I love both of you very much.

Oh, lovely one! I've been trying to shape these words since early this morning. Fear not! They were not written in response to your noontime post. I'm merely sorting through my own thoughts and conflicting emotions. My post may seem a bit forceful to you because I was working so hard to flesh out the brief, formless intuitions that I had.

I've been doing more playing here lately because it's been so much work to say something substantive. This post was no exception....and for that reason, I'm still evaluating the content....

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh sweeties, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that as a criticism of anyone's reaction (goodness knows I'm falling off my own hinges lately and am full of bitterness over the things that are weighing on me.)

No of course I wasn't meaning to imply that anyone here has done such things to the community! I'm sorry. It didn't occur to me that what I said could hurt or offend anyone here.

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. I see the charade too, and I'm angry at it too. I've also laughed when I've been sad or disturbed or surprised, at things that weren't technically "funny." There was even a time in my teens when I saw a movie with a lot of gay-bashing which upset me so much that every time it happened, my emotions erupted in nervous laughter, close to vomiting, and after the movie someone came up to me and glared, "Bitch!"

Really sorry, David and Dash. I love both of you very much.

Oh gosh...now I'm the one who's sorry. No fear, Zerbie...I was neither hurt nor offended...no need to apologize at all.

My point, I guess, was a more general one to the "forum world" out there countering any "there but for the grace of God goes any one of us" conclusions that someone might take away.

I really do get the larger point about this being sad. It is. Larry Craig, and Mark Foley, and David Vitter, etc., etc., are indeed victims of larger social and cultural dynamics (they're depraved on account of they were deprived??), but, having hoisted themselves onto their own petards, they have voluntarily given up, in my view, any grounds for sympathy.

Either that or I'm hopelessly petty.

C'est la guerre!

[Emproph]

I'm really sorry about whomever it was..and whatever they allegedly didn't do..

You'll have to excuse my subconscious though, it seems to have a mind of its own..

[suzer1013]

For me, this doesn't feel good at all. I find no reason for rejoicing, and tend to agree with Sailaway on this.

This incident is just another excuse for the religious right to paint "homos" as predators lurking in bathrooms with only sexual deviance in mind. All the work we do to help people understand GLBT people are truly your neighbors, that we can have monogamous, loving and committed relationships, are destroyed when the media grabs a story like this and runs with it. If Sen. Craig is indeed a closeted gay man, I do have sympathy for him. And some anger as well. I don't know his record on GLBT issues, but if he has indeed voted against GLBT rights in the past, he has now further injured our community be embodying all that scares (whether it is rational or not) those who preach against homosexuality and gay rights.

I have seen men trolling public restrooms at rest areas on the highway. I know this happens. Whether these men are gay or straight, I don't know, and it doesn't matter to me. However, the anti-gay forces paint this as a gay issue, and it is difficult to change these stereotypes when someone like Sen. Craig fulfills the image for them.

My guess is he'll do a Ted Haggard and "repent" of his evil homosexual ways, claim he was tempted by "sin" and try the ex-gay thing. And then he'll find a different public restroom to troll - one that is a bit more secure.

This is sad all around. Sad for us, sad for him, and sad for our movement which tries so hard to escape damning stereotypes, only to have them reinforced in the media circus when someone in a high position (who should know better) falls into damaging behavior.

[Emproph]

(I'm blaming all of this on my subconscious..)

Title and videos courtesy Good As You.

Larry Craig Statement

Very sad.

This is also not funny:


And neither is this hysterical: