UMC bulletin boards

[NathanATX]

I am exhausted.

I'm going to turn over the reigns for a few days. So if you feel led & able, please participate.

www.umc.org and click on "Online Discussion"

[NathanATX]

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On 3/22/2006 4:30:36 PM bill_chatfield@yahoo.com wrote:
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Warning someone of the danger of their sin is not hate. There is no hate in it. I believe homosexuality is sinful, but I do not hate you. You're labeling it as hate so that those who would tell you things you don't like will look hateful and hopefully they will be compelled to stop.

Of course there is the type of person who believes that it is right to hate homosexuals because they believe that God hates them. I've read their rhetoric. It is the work of Satan. Our church ought to speak against these groups. They misrepresent Christ.

Please don't mistake me for someone who advocates hate or oppression of any kind. On the contrary I am very concerned about you. I wish I could believe that homosexuality is acceptable to God, because my heart is broken by your situation, but the Bible and my conscience tells me that homosexuality is sin. My experience tells me that it is sin. My reason tells me that it is sin. God created a man and a woman with the correct parts to join them together as one. People of the same sex are not designed by God to have parts that join together.

Out of my love and concern for you, I am compelled by God, who holds us accountable to warn others, to tell you that I believe that homosexuals are putting themselves in great danger by justifying their sin instead of repenting from it.

If you choose not to listen to my warning, then that is up to you. The issue is between you and God. I have done what God requires me to do by warning you.

Even though I don't agree with you, I would welcome you into my church because I would not want you to ever be shut out from a Christian environment. I would accept you with love as my brother. Every person needs to experience the love of Christ and find a place to grow in their faith.

I know it is often hard to tell the difference between those who hate and those speak warnings out of love and concern for your well being. Unfortunately it often feels like the same thing on the receiving end. And in this world I'm sure you have experienced a lot of hate so as to be, rightly, sensitive to it. But, I'm telling you, sincerely, that I disagree with you, but I don't hate you and I don't speak words of hate. They are words of concern and warning.

My heart is truly broken by this conflict. I agonize over it, about how to bring it to some conclusion that everyone can be happy with. I feel the pain if inflicts on both sides and it feels like a knife in my heart. I want us all to exchange words of love instead of words of conflict. But, God will not have us compromise on his word. I have to stand firm on what God said. I can't deny God to agree with what you want me to agree with. The best I can do is offer you my love, compassion, and my hand as your brother, in spite of the fact that we disagree. I am able to do that because I realize that my understanding is not as complete and perfect as God's is. I am just a humble child of God and my judgment doesn't count for anything. I hope that when we all get to heaven that we will find out that you were right because I don't want anyone to be condemned. My hope is that God will pardon all those who love his Son even if they behaved according to what they falsely believed was true, whether that be you or me. Until then I'm happy to agree to live together as brothers in Christ.

I would stand with you, against any group that truly advocates hate, violence or oppression of any kind. Hate, violence, and oppression are evil and I stand with God, against any evil.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but my feeling is that most people here that disagree with you do so out of love, concern, and fear for your soul, not out of hate. I imagine some people are also a little agitated that you are trying to convince other people that what is labeled as sin in the Bible is not sin. You are therefore trying to lead people into the sin of homosexuality by making into something that is acceptable.

What do you think would happen if someone came to us and tried to convince us that adultery was not really sin, that God gave the law against it only because of the cultural context the Israelites lived in? How do you think Christians would react to someone actively trying to convince other people that adultery is an activity that God loves? Of course they're going to react with agitation and frustration because that basically amounts to teaching heresy, which God commands us to fight against, which is what we’re doing, but you call it hate.

I'm going to remove myself from this discussion and any like it that may start. I need to recover from the agony I feel when I simply repeat what God said in the Bible because I know I'm offending people by standing with God and reiterating what he said. I feel like simply repeating what God said in the Bible is seen as hate. If I were simply to post Romans 1:27 in a message by itself, simply the words that God inspired Paul to write and that are in all of our Bibles, that it would be seen as hate. If the word of God is seen as hate here then it is time to close this church because it no long serves Christ. It serves its own desires of the flesh.

I also fear that people such as myself, may be removed from this board for repeating God’s words and his warnings, because God’s word is seen as hate. Isn't that a situation of true irony, where the word of God is suppressed in favor of idolatrous human “wisdom” and the desires of the flesh, even in Christ’s own church.

I pray that God's love will remain with all of you.


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Bill, Again this is a very loving response. I appreciate that.

When I first came out I had intense anger towards the church. My own mother disowned me because of what she was taught... exactly the same stuff you are bringing up, Bill.

I am not foreign to the church or to Christianity. I grew up attending church & church functions probably at least three times a week. As I got older and became more committed & involved, I was at church all the time.

I've been on worship teams, I've led bible studies, I've been on missions trips, I've led & been a part of numerous church ministries.

I went to Bible school and then to Oral Roberts University.

I know the Bible inside and out. I love God with all that I have. I absolutely love praise and worship. I feel an intense & compelling call to the ministry... to bring God's love to people.

And I am gay.

I have always been gay. When I was a toddler, my mom's sisters would tease her because I was acting like such a cute little "princess." I would be caught often walking around church or a restaurant with some random woman's purse. (I've since given up that habit.)

I knew I was gay from as young as I can remember. And I knew the church's teaching. I knew what would happen to me if they found out. I sometimes wonder if I was subconsciously being super-involved in order to prove myself to them... to be accepted in the church and in my family, even if I was gay. My fears were very well founded.

After coming out, I no longer existed to people at my church. There wasn't any outright condemnation... just a stark and cold difference in the way I was treated. I wasn't welcome in ministry roles. People would hold their children a little closer as I walked by.

My own mother said she didn't want to talk to me again. She didn't want me talking to my family, especially my younger brothers. She said she wouldn't help me financially through college. She said I was no longer welcome at home.

And you wonder why I have a problem with the condemnation of homosexuality? It destroys people. It destroys families. It is absolutely, without any doubt, NOT from God.

I used to be so angry with my mother and my church. I could rip her to shreds with my words and feel no guilt.

Then, one of my brothers died. He was also gay, about a year and a half younger than me. The only person I felt connected to in the world at that time.

I can't begin to describe the trauma, the sense of aloneness I felt. I had begun to believe the message of my mother and my church... that God didn't love me. And now I was left in the world with nothing and no one.

My life was pretty bad for a few years. I had little integrity. I was partying & drinking too much. I was being promiscuous.

Let me be clear. I was then and am now entirely responsible for my own actions. The problem is that I was a kid when I was going through all this. I can't imagine enduring it as an adult with the self-development and training I've had now... but to endure the abuse as a child. I am so thankful I wasn't more out of control.

What changed for me... about 3 years ago I was driving to Dallas and I heard the song "I can only imagine" on the radio. I instantly got this image of my brother in the loving presence of Jesus. I was bawling and had to pull over.

At that point, I knew I had to start forgiving people in my church & family. I knew that I was blaming all of them for my life and my actions. I knew that I had let myself start to believe their ideas about God. I decided to get my spiritual life back on track.

It took baby steps. I was desparate for a place to worship God the way I used to... and to be safe. I finally found MCC Austin.

I already knew God did not condemn me for being gay. I resolved those questions around 13 years of age. But I wasn't strong enough to be around people who would condemn me.

Since that time, my life has transformed. I absolutely love my life. Even my mother and I get along... most of the time. I'm successful. I'm currently preparing to go to seminary to answer the call of full time ministry.

I have become more and more compassionate as time goes by. And Bill, I do have compassion for you. I think you're still attached to incorrect ideas about God, but I don't blame you for it. I hear you wrestling with what you know in your heart and what the church has told you.

My prayer is that you will be led by peace and by love.

The peace of God that passes understanding. And the love of God that is without condition.

Blessings,
Nate

[keltic63]

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On 3/22/2006 6:34:32 PM Asburyguy wrote:
Zoe,


To answer your question, YES I do believe that a sexual act between two people of the same gender is a sin. Yes I do believe and know several people that have been brought out this lifestyle by the Love of Christ. They will all tell you the same thing, that it is not God's intended plan for humanity.


It really saddens me to hear people say that they can read scripture and discern that God is OK with homosexuality. God's plan was never for two people of the same gender to be together in a sexual way. If that was the case wouldn't they be able to reproduce? It would not be the cause of serious medical issues and that have nothing to do with HIV/AIDS.


For centuries the Church has spoken out against homosexuality, and it has been until recently when society has pushed the issue on the church that various groups have 'folded'. But those who stand up against society and refuse to live as they do will not fold. This is an issue that has destroyed church after church, and family after family and I don't think in either of our lifetimes will we see an end to this debate. The only day we will truly know the answer to this issue is a day when we are no longer here, in this life.



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So you take the word of these who tell you that they are now straight, yet once were gay, and you give great creedance to their testimony. I do not know them, so I will not make a judgment about their sincerity. However, what about the testimony of those who say "I am christian and I am gay." ? Why do you wish to discount the experience of these children of God?

As far as the church having spoken out against homosexuality for centuries: what about St. Serge and St. Bacchus? Early icons show the 2 men as participating in a marriage rite in which Christ himself is the pronobus, or "best man' overseeing their marriage. The "church" also performed marriage rites for same-sex couples in the 8th through the 18th centuries.

Biblical marriage= one man+ one woman? Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines; Jacob had Rachel and Leah; David had 8 wives, and possibly children to women who were not his wife. Paul says that it is best not to marry; are we all bound by that piece of scripture?

Churches and families, AND God's Gay and Lesbian children have been destroyed because of the narrow interpretation of a few, and I mean a few, select verses that some have chosen to apply literally, while disregarding other verses. The Bible has a lot more to say about divorce, and yet, not one of you "true followers of Christ" would dare bring it up in your church because the offerings would dry up immediately! Many of Your pastors, your parishioners are divorced and remarried, totally disregarding the clear teaching of scriptures. None of you even think of talking about it because it is financial suicide. It remains clear that spiritual violence against gay and lesbian Children of God is acceptible because they are a minority, a scapegoat, and as such not valuable to the church. If you truly wanted to protect the family, and keep the faith pure, you would lobby the legislatures to pass laws banning divorce, and instituting stiff penalties for adultery. You take the coward's way out and blame the ills of society on a small group of people who are now claiming their rightful place at the table. God help those who deny them.

[NathanATX]

I'm drawing a blank with how to respond to this one...
__________________________________________________ ________

Nate, Show me a scipture, just one, that says that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle for believers. I have been inb these dialogues and conversations on many occasions and never never never has any one from the homosexual community been able to show me a passage that indicates that sexual sin by either heterosexuals or homosexuals is alright with God. If there were such a verse that showed no judgment consequences to sexual sin then the homosexual community sould have brought that up time and time again. No such verse exists. While countless verses can be applied to sinful lifestyles for all human beings (including heterosexual and homosexuals) as needing God's grace, reconciliation, redemption and change to transform our actions and our mind to do the will of God. Paul did need to single out gays as being the only ones not inheriting the kingdom of God. Paul was equally against incest, temple prostitution by males and females and a variety of other sinful practices covered by porneia.

Orthodox Christianity as a whole has preached against homosexuality for 2000 years. The last few years people have done some creative eisogesis to suggest that what God really meant was people should be in committed relationships whether heterosexual or homosexual. I will not be one who says that the church's understanding of scripture for 2000 years was wrong on this issue.

Bring me such a scripture and I will discuss it with you.

[suzer1013]

My knowledge of scripture, its context and exigesis is limited, but I've always sort of read the Ruth and Naomi story to be supportive of a same sex relationship (whether it was sexual or not, it was a commitment between to people of the same sex to each other). Isn't there also a story about a Roman centurion and his slave/lover that is also believed to be homosexual in nature -- Jesus heals his slave/lover or something like that?

Nate -- I've just gotta say "thanks" and you are really awesome! I think you've really gotten some people to THINK on those boards. I think even Pastor Steve has been forced to deal with his thinking process. I thank God for your education, your background, your wisdom, and your desire for change and willingness to speak out.

Susan
("Zoe" over on the UMC boards -- I've wanted to keep some degree of anonymity over there)

[NathanATX]

thanks Susan... Your posts ARE brilliant and compassionate! You should post more!

Here's what I came up with...

So instead of agreeing to look at the texts you use to condemn me, you suggest I find some to defend myself with.

Weren't we just talking about your integrity?

From www.truthsetsfree.net/study.pdf

"...The Bible really does not fully address the topic of homosexuality. Jesus never talked about it. The prophets never talked about it. In Sodom homosexual activity is mentioned within the context of rape (raping angels nonetheless), and in Romans 1:24-27 we find it mentioned within the context of idolatry (Baal worship) involving lust and dishonorable passions. 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 talk about homosexual activity in the context of prostitution and possibly pederasty.

Nowhere does the Bible condemn a loving and committed homosexual relationship. To use the Bible to condemn such a relationship, as we see, involves a projection of ones own bias and a stretching of the Biblical text beyond that of which the scriptures speak. Historically, however, the Bible has been taken out of context and twisted to oppress almost every minority one could imagine including women, African Americans, children, slaves, Jews, and the list goes on. Do we truly understand the greatest commandments? “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” (RSV Mat. 22:36-40)"


"The bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 to heterosexuals. This doesn't mean God doesn't love heterosexuals, it's just that they need more supervision." - Lynn Lavner

[Vanessa White]

I am a member of a UMC church in small town PA, and have not yet checked out these forums that you are speaking about, but of course, am very concerned about this going on on the website for UMC. I have not yet had a chance to check it out, and I am disheartened by what you are saying here because we searched for a local church for years before we found our welcoming UMC. I felt kind of insulated all this time, but my mistake I guess was generalizing the warm feeling we get as a gay family as the church at large. BIG mistake I guess!! Anyway, I am not yet very literate in the stories and verses of the Bible, that support/not support us as a gay community. Am I going to be getting in way over my head if I decide to participate in these forums? I mean, I sometimes feel out of my league here among friends, because I am in the baby stages of getting familiar with Bibleteachings and interpretations. ANy thoughts or advice out there? PS I may not respond for a day or two because I have some busy days ahead, but any thoughts are surely welcome. THanks all for everything, Vanessa

[suzer1013]

Nate -- I like your answer. Of course, what Pastor Steve is trying to do is, instead of listening with an open heart, change the subject and force everyone to play the game by his rules. There's a part of me that really likes Pastor Steve -- I think he is actually a good hearted person, who is terribly misguided in some ways. It frightens me that he is a pastor. I am not necessarily wanting to change his mind -- God will do that. What I hope for him is that he will be able to listen to and understand the "other side" so to speak, and perhaps stop actively discriminating against GLBT folks. It might be more than I could hope for. Of course, nothing happens overnight, either. Perhaps God will touch his heart and he will, someday, be changed in a positive way.

I lifted the following from the Whosoever.org website. You may have already checked out their information, but they've got a listing of scriptural references, etc. that are helpful.

Blessings,

Susan

There are two Biblical same-sex relationships (one between two women, the other two men) reported in the Bible in a positive light. They appear to have progressed well beyond friendship. They were likely homosexual affairs, although not necessarily sexually active relationships:
+ Ruth 1:16, 2:10-11 between Ruth and Naomi
+ 1 Samuel 18:1-4, 1 Samuel 20:41-42 and 2 Samuel 1:25-26 between David and Jonathan. (Some translations of the Bible distort the original Hebrew text, particularly of 1 Samuel 20)

[Zerbie]

Vanessa,

I don't see any reason why you shouldn't join those forums if they interest you, and lend your personal insights to the conversations. It's up to you - I don't think it's necessary to be a Biblical expert, if you have something to say, then it's probably of some value as your personal insight. I am one who hasn't even got the inclination to pore over and agonize over the Bible when having discussions here on this forum - I will share when it seems relevent, that which I have to say. So it's really up to you if you decide you feel comfortable posting there or not.

PS: Look forward to having you come back and post some more after your busy days settle down.

[suzer1013]

OK, "Pastor Steve" will probably completely tear me apart when he reads my response, but here it is.

Susan

Pastor Steve -- I would suggest that there are two places that I know of in scripture where same sex relationships appear without condemnation. First is the relationship between Ruth and Naomi. While not clearly sexual in nature, their relationship is clearly blessed and, in fact, one passage in Ruth is popularly used in marriage ceremonies to this day. It is one example of a blessed same sex relationship that may or may not have been similar to committed homosexual relationships today.

Another relationship that appears is the one between David and Jonathan in 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel. David expresses his love for Jonathan, and this relationship does appear to be a sexual one.

You are, of course, free to (and probably will ) disagree with my interpretation of these passages, but the way I see it, there are two clear same sex relationships that are not condemned.

I agree with you that what is important is that God loves us all, and I appreciate your sincerity and honesty about what you believe. I appreciate that even if you don't agree with my viewpoint, you have "listened" to what I've written. I do not seek to change your mind, or anyone else's. I seek to share what I know of the love of Christ. I think it's up to God to change our minds and our hearts, and I believe He will do that at the right time.

Like James (Dewdrop), I see much value in mutual understanding, in addition to challenging and thought provoking conversation. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Peace,

[suzer1013]

Ugh. Sometimes it feels so toxic over there, it's hard to remember these folks are also children of God and are not hateful themselves, but are misled by hateful teaching. The UMC boards, in my opinion, are not a "safe" place for most gays and lesbians. Or, perhaps, it's just because I'm feeling extra sensitive today. For some there, it doesn't matter with what loving message you approach them, they still come back angry and hateful. <sigh>

I'm spiritually and emotionally exhausted.

Susan

[Zerbie]

Maybe it's time for a break Suze. If it consistently drains you to read that forum, stay away for a while. Voices of kindness and strength come and go on public fora, and everything moves in cycles. Even the sap in trees. Maybe this is your down time.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by suzer1013

Ugh. Sometimes it feels so toxic over there, it's hard to remember these folks are also children of God and are not hateful themselves, but are misled by hateful teaching. The UMC boards, in my opinion, are not a "safe" place for most gays and lesbians. Or, perhaps, it's just because I'm feeling extra sensitive today. For some there, it doesn't matter with what loving message you approach them, they still come back angry and hateful. <sigh>

I'm spiritually and emotionally exhausted.

Susan

and they turn it around on the other person, projecting their anger and hatespeech onto others who are trying to show them that what they've said isn't exactly loving. I'm sensing that it's time for a break as well.

[NathanATX]

Exekiel 33:6 wrote:
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On 3/24/2006 3:34:07 PM nate@nateblack.us wrote:
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I agree... safe, legal & rare.

My mother almost aborted me.----------------



nate...there you go, giving me cause to rethink my opposition to all abortions! Yuk yuk yuk!

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Exekiel 33:6 wrote:
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On 3/24/2006 3:34:07 PM nate@nateblack.us wrote:
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I agree... safe, legal & rare.

My mother almost aborted me.----------------



nate...there you go, giving me cause to rethink my opposition to all abortions! Yuk yuk yuk!

yeah, that was the Christlike thing to say.

[Daniel]

Susan,

You mentioned in your first post about dealing with anger. I can identify with this very much.

It tool me 4 years to get health benefits for my partner at my place of work. What I learned in the process was that I had to have the courage to stand up for myself and be insistent about the matter at hand without letting the siutation get control of my life overall. I often found myself spending days and days being angry. It was painful and I worked at keeping it in check (The 'don't let them see you sweat' thought echoed in my mind). But it did get me motivated. A good thing.

In brief: I don't think anger is necessarily (Jesus routing the money changers form the temple comes to mind). Its what we do with it that's the issue perhaps.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

What changed for me... about 3 years ago I was driving to Dallas and I heard the song "I can only imagine" on the radio. I instantly got this image of my brother in the loving presence of Jesus. I was bawling and had to pull over.

Nate,

Reading your story made me cry...

Thank you for sharing it with this person and he forum. It's very powerful.

Music has been my salvation- and profession- for many years. I count myself blessed in that. Your words above remind me of the many times when I've listened to a beautiful piece of music and felt connected to all those that I love who have gone on before me- and to the All that is.

Daniel

[Emproph]

If I write any more than a few lines here I’m going to end up writing an essay. I have a thread in the works (hopefully to finish), but specifically in regard to this thread and in relation to your efforts in the UMC bulletin boards.

This caught my eye the other day, Nate’s post #22. This guy is a perfect example of my point here, and Nate your response was as perfect as could be.

Originally Posted by NathanATX

...My heart is truly broken by this conflict. I agonize over it, about how to bring it to some conclusion that everyone can be happy with. I feel the pain if inflicts on both sides and it feels like a knife in my heart. I want us all to exchange words of love instead of words of conflict. But, God will not have us compromise on his word. I have to stand firm on what God said. I can't deny God to agree with what you want me to agree with. The best I can do is offer you my love, compassion, and my hand as your brother, in spite of the fact that we disagree. I am able to do that because I realize that my understanding is not as complete and perfect as God's is. I am just a humble child of God and my judgment doesn't count for anything. I hope that when we all get to heaven that we will find out that you were right because I don't want anyone to be condemned. My hope is that God will pardon all those who love his Son even if they behaved according to what they falsely believed was true, whether that be you or me. Until then I'm happy to agree to live together as brothers in Christ...

That whole letter was is heartbreaking. If anyone is reachable it is people like him, as opposed to those who worship pride, need someone to feel better than, fear death and/or eternal hell, or worse, no life after death. They're much more likely to believe in the Bible no matter what.

(in the first person) The issue is why do you feel the need to believe in Biblical inerrancy? The answer is, Because I can’t see the truth of God and until I do, the Bible is all I have.

Homosexuality is understood by heterosexuals as inherently unnatural because they look at same sex attraction the way we look at opposite sex attraction. When we claim that it is fundamentally the same, the idea is that whatever caused him to “think” he was attracted to men in the first place must be the same thing that deludes him into thinking it's fundamental. To them, delusion is both the cause and effect of homosexuality. Somehow, someway, you are so deluded, you think you are not deluded, and since the only safety/certainty of truth that I have confirms this (the Bible), you must be wrong.

Couple that with a God (the Bible), who thinks so too, and we're in a dilly of a pickle when it comes to convincing someone else to understand otherwise.

I heard this the other day and I thought of this thread. Jesus said: "Meet them at their point of need," I believe in relation to the disciples, anybody?

Even those who believe in Biblical inerrancy for the sake of supremacy are afraid.

Their point of need is where their fear lies. The purpose of the belief of Biblical inerrancy is solely to avoid fear, whether it be the fear of avoiding hell or no life after death, or not being special, as long as the Bible cannot be wrong, they don’t have to fear uncertainty.

The question is, why must their faith in the infinite Love of God be contingent upon the Bible? A book orated, written and interpreted by thousands of humans at every step of the process, all of whom were under the influence of original sin.

As long as salvation is understood as the avoidance of hell, the “safety” of salvation will be equated with the “fear” of hell. Safety = fear is a state of confusion, the basis of all fear.

The challenge is, how do we present such a notion without appearing to devalue the meaning of the truth of God. If their definition of God is less than only Love, they have no need to look outside the Bible, illogic itself makes sense.

Originally Posted by NathanATX

...I wish I could believe that homosexuality is acceptable to God, because my heart is broken by your situation...

Bigotry is not believing homosexuality is wrong, it’s wanting to believe it. This guy is not a bigot, he’s a victim too. Like family members of gay people forced to choose between their love for their child and their love for God. People like him are reachable, but again, it comes down to the belief in Biblical inerrancy.

Asking them to accept us is asking them to relinquish the certitude of salvation. If the Bible’s wrong about us, it might be wrong about everything else. Thus, their point of need. Get it?

I so want to jump in and help you guys out, but I’ll slice ‘em six ways from Sunday if they pull that Bible out on me. I’ll cause more fear and confusion vs the certitude of Love and understanding you guys are so adept at expressing and demonstrating. So I’ve got my own work to do on that front.

Again, I’m proud of you guys.

P.S. -So much for avoiding an essay, eh?

[Emproph]

There's some excellent resources and information here on biblical interpretation especially in regard to homosexuality, avoiding the whole potentially inflamatory questioning of Biblical authority/inerrancy issue that I'm famous for.

http://www.ecwr.org/resources/homosexuality.html

[dewdrop_world]

I've been pretty busy at umc.org myself. Here's my latest.

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On 4/3/2006 3:30:52 PM True to Him wrote: Is it your position that God only works through those who are without sin and therefore if God works through someone they are sinless? Does this work for all sins or just the sin of homosexual conduct?----------------

Ah, a substantial question--very much appreciated!

I think grace doesn't depend on a sinless quality (if it did, we would all be in trouble!). I think there are lots of other things it doesn't depend on: church rules and regulations; people's opinions about Scripture*; human conceptions of what is sin; obedience to this or that authority--I could probably think of some more if it weren't so late.

* This is kind of a big point, and I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge its contentiousness. After something of a crisis of faith in my early 20s, I arrived at the position that human language is not capable of expressing the full mystery of God, which put Scripture in what is for me a more viable perspective: a source of wisdom, but one that requires careful study and whose meaning depends in large measure on the spiritual background one brings to it. I'm aware that many people here disagree very strongly. Some disagree so strongly that they seem unable to respond rationally (though I don't get that impression from you).

I also believe that spirituality is highly personal, and that no matter what your spiritual practice is, somebody somewhere is going to think you're doing the wrong thing. But none of that has any bearing on grace! The most important and hardest won lesson in my life is that God does not need anyone's approval to help me as I work to grow in love within and through my sexual orientation; nor do I need approval to cultivate my spirituality in a way that works for me. God is simply there for me.

I suppose I could sum it up (though any summation is an approximation!) as a view of grace beyond sin, or at least beyond the notion of sin as defined in terms of fixed rules. If I had to pin down what I consider sin, it would be failing to live up to my fullest potential to love. To take this seriously requires deep reflection and an ever-expanding vision of what love means, continual self-interrogation and raising the standard.

My capacity to love was tightly constrained when I was younger and felt I was unlovable--"something was wrong with me." Then I came out and (slowly) learned to stop fearing the unworthiness I felt, and through that process my capacity to love began to bloom. In my case, and in the case of millions of others, staying in the closet or staying celibate to appease a religious authority would be like cutting off the nose to spite the face--winning approval as a "good Christian" but failing to discover the best God has for us. To me, it's obvious which would be the worst sin

That got longer than I expected... good night!

hjh