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#1
09-01-2007, 12:59 PM
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Bisexuality: images and perceptions
I'm spinning this tangent off of Troy's thread so that one can be saved for Troy's original purpose of discussing the conservative agenda.
Since Tymejumper has gone ahead and stated outright the problem of bisexual stereotyping, I thought we could move that talk over to here. What cultural images come to mind when you hear "bisexual?" What bisexual characters have you seen in film and how did they behave? Have you ever seen a bisexual character portrayed as anything other than a predator? I have not, yet. Maybe some of you can point me to a movie that does. Maybe not. There is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding about what bisexual means. Tyme made a great point when she said that bisexuals are now where gay folk were 20 years ago. I never thought of it that way before, but I think she's correct. 20 years ago, the perceived cultural understanding of a homosexual was a man (lesbians were erased) who did nothing but have sex, and of course they all had AIDS. That was the myth the adults around me tried to teach to me. Now we have gone a long way towards dispelling that myth, but we still have this myth that bisexuals are sexually predatory at worst and deceptive, promiscuous cheaters or "swingers" or polyamorous at their most sedate. That image just effectively erases me. When I was first trying to come out, my first belief was that I was bisexual. But I was a virgin, and not all that interested in dating everyone I saw, more interested in career and spirituality than in hedonism, so I understood it to mean that therefore I did not fit the definition of bisexual. I must be something *else,* that likes both genders but isn't bisexual, yet what could that be? The idea of bisexuality as BEHAVIORAL rather than orientational was so entrenched, I concluded I had to be lesbian. It was YEARS before I really understood that my attractions were to both genders, and even then I chose to identify as a "lesbian who also like men" rather than "bisexual." It could have saved me 5 years of questioning if I had only known you could be bisexual and monogamous, bisexual and a virgin, as I had been at the beginning of the questioning process.
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi 
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#2
09-01-2007, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE"It could have saved me 5 years of questioning if I had only known you could be bisexual and monogamous, bisexual and a virgin, as I had been at the beginning of the questioning process.[/QUOTE]
Zerbie, I am glad you are opening this up to discussion. It is very hard to figure out exactly what you are when you first come out. As I explained on Troys thread, I originally came out as Bi and went to therapy to help me sort through all my feelings and arrived actually at lesbian as the lable that fits me best. I had several of my Bi firends tell me that I was a lesbian! They never said they could not date me or be my friend becuase I was now a lesbian instead of Bi! That is a bit different from some lesbians who when finding out I was Bi, refused to talk to me or befriend me! I still feel that sexuality is fluid and many scientific articles do state this. There are many that find people can go from straight to Bi or gay to straight. An interesting tidbit is that the latest findings is that womens sexuality is MUCH more fluid than mens. That means we can switch and are more likely to than males. It angers me greatly when I know of many happily partnered Bi people that are faithful and such get labled with being promiscuious. I would like to make clear that WHATEVER two adults do in the privacy of their home and marriage/commitment that they AGREE on it OK. There are many straight couples who are in open relationships, polyamourous, swingers, threesomes, and all other types of arrangements. Why didn't they get the lable of being untrustworthy, sleezy etc? Is it becuase Bis are minorities and got labled as it was easy to blame a small group who could not defend themselves? That is my belief. The best thing for Bis to do is to become visible and show they are like the majority. They have families and marriages and partnerships etc. Knowledge is power! If they see you are like everyone else, then they have to see you for who you truly are.
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#3
09-01-2007, 02:56 PM
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Yeah, you've had some journeying not unlike mine, it seems. We've made the same observation too regarding the gender distinction. Men are far more likely than women to orient to only one gender and have that orientation remain pretty solidly fixed over a lifetime. Women, otoh, we can be quite fluid in how our sexuality expresses, to the point of experiencing sexual orientations that shift. I wish I had known, or even heard, of that before mine shifted!
 As it happened, the shock nearly sent me into cardiac arrest. I *still* remember the moment I first felt it for a man - like it was yesterday. I was shocked to the brink of dying. As to being more out, that's incredibly difficult to do when you're bi and partnered. You are automatically and by default perceived to have the orientation that corresponds to your partner's gender. Are you supposed to keep waving your hands in the air and saying "No! No! I'm BIsexual," ?? That only leads to further misunderstandings. Why are you announcing this? I came out to a gay colleague about 2 years ago. He was SHOCKED - SHOCKED! - when I told him I'm bisexual and blurted "And- and- and your husband is OKAY with that??" I did not pick up on the underlying assumption, I just gave him a confused look and said "Of course. Why wouldn't he be?" And the guy said, "Er, er, but he - wowwww, your husband is okay with that?!" Me: "Duh!" So I got home and told hubby about the conversation and it was hubby who explained to me: "Now (colleague's name) thinks that we have an open relationship and you're screwing girls on the side." Me: "Wha!?!? Wha??! What?!!!!!! Omigod, so THAT'S why he was so shocked. " And that basically nipped my coming out as a married bi, right in the bud. Forget it. Let people assume I'm straight. They can fall over in shock someday if I happen to mention an ex-girlfriend then. But no more announcing my orientation. That just doesn't go over well.
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi Last edited by Zerbie; 09-01-2007 at 03:06 PM. Reason: adding paragraphs
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#4
09-01-2007, 09:58 PM
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That is very true. People do have a tendancy to freak out when they find out you are not straight!
When I said to be more out, I didn't explain myself very well. I didn't mean to be insensitive, I just meant to let others know if they are downing bisexual people that you are and that you have a very happy and faithful marriage. People are very ignorant and sometimes it does not seem fair we need to explain or should HAVE to explain to them how we live our lives is NOT so different from theirs. That is the only way they will see us a normal and like them. They will assume you are straight as you are with a man. I also get that. They think I am straight with a lesbian friend when I go out with my wife. I don't fit the lesbian sterotype of being into sports, short hair and no makeup. I hate sports, love makeup and have my hair in a shag. Yes, I maintian my own car and can fix things around the house. Men especially freak out when they attempt to hit on me and I tell them I am married no thanks. "who's the lucky guy?" they say and I have to point to her or say "Ellie". (imagine those looks! LOL LOL) It is worse when you are bi because people are thinking you could "choose" a man if you were with a woman, and if you are with a woman then you are now with a man and you were just playing around. Or worse, cant make up your mind. They act like its all fun and games and that you get the best of both worlds, they convienently overlook that difficulty you have and the confusion and such. Us gay people just dont go killing ourselves for something to do! We have more suicide and drug/alcohol problems becuase we are so unhappy society sees us a monsters or degenerates. I wish there had been some heroes that were bisexual or strong gay heros out there when I was growing up. I think we must be about the same age and it sure would have helped us find ourselves easier. The only ones I can think of that were out a bit were George Michaels, and Rob Holford(Judest Priest). The only Bi I have heard of was Gia, Angelina Jolie played her, but she dies of a drug overdoes I think. Today, female stars are saying they are bi, Angelina Jolie and Julie Cyper(Melissa Ethridges ex), are all I can think of right away. The truly best part is that my daughter is in 10th grade and she has MANY bisexual friends. She has several gay guy friends also. We may have to wait for our childrens generation to vindicate us! Much Metta, Rebekah P.S. Your poor hubby! If the other guys think you have a gf on the side, they will tease him. He needs to tell them he has a "rockin hot" wife. It will shut them up!
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#5
09-01-2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
I can't picture anyone getting away with *thinking* about teasing my husband. He wouldn't have to do anything, either. People would be scared to.
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#6
09-01-2007, 10:34 PM
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we are the same age!
Yup, 38. I wont lie about it. It took me long enough to get here and figure out what I want!
 My friends in HS were mainly guys and butches. Go figure. Even the Heath Ledger and Brokeback mountain was a bad hit for Bis. They made him a greedy ass in it. (could not make up his mind) I say we take over the film industry and put some REAL gay people in it and make our OWN heroes!
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#7
09-01-2007, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
__________________
"Beloved let us tolerate one another. For tolerance is of God and everyone that tolerates is born of God and knows God. He that tolerates not, knows not God for God is tolerance." 1 John 4:7,8
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#8
09-01-2007, 10:39 PM
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The Celluloid Closet--good movie
Quote:
__________________
"Beloved let us tolerate one another. For tolerance is of God and everyone that tolerates is born of God and knows God. He that tolerates not, knows not God for God is tolerance." 1 John 4:7,8
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#9
09-02-2007, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
I heard that was a great movie to see, I have not had the chance to see it yet. Sounds like your therapist was an idiot, like being a well adjusted gay person is an easy task anyhow, like we really need so called professionals telling us were sick! Here is my lack of support story: I actuallly was in a "women supporting women" group, for gay women when I first came out. They told me since I didn't have a gf and had not slept with women(just to 1st and 2nd base, fantisized and got really intensly turned on by lesbian porno and women in general) that I could not "know" I was gay, much less bi. I told them that my teen was not sexually active either and she knew who she was atracted to, men, she knew she was straight, and how did they explain that?. I don't think they liked that answer, and needless to say, I just did not go back to that group.
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#10
09-08-2007, 06:09 AM
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Annoying labels
I'm so waiting the day there won't be any labels on love. You love who you love and that's all.
I consider myself a lesbian because so far I've only fallen for women. But I've never told myself "I will never fall in love with a man", it just never happened in 34 years. It probably won't, but if it would, I won't refuse the relationship (I'm not saying I would not be confused but I'd deal with it). One of my friends had a 8 years relationship with a woman who was married with a man when they knew each other; and when they broke up her ex got hooked up with a man again. Now is this lady straight-with-an-exception, or bi? I say she was just in love with my friend, and my friend happened to be a woman. I've seen very sad attitudes from lesbians towards bisexuals; I've heard some girls talk about "the war against bis" which I was totally shocked to hear  (I think I looked so offended that they must have thought I was bi because they never talked to me again and I don't care, I don't want to hang out with such persons). I was involved in a discussion group for lesbians in the past years (it now does not work anymore, long story), but once we were choosing the different discussion topics for the following year, and one of us would go furious every time someone suggested a topic about bisexuality and say "we are a group for lesbians". We (the others) were like well who does it hurt to talk about it?? I explained that if we were so judgemental about it we were no better than the homophobes (eventually this "anti-bi" girl agreed with the topics, just saying that she would not attend those nights). My girlfriend had a boyfriend for 8 years; they broke up when she realized she wanted to be with a woman. In the beginning of her questioning she identified as bi for a while and told me that sometimes she's not sure that she's not bi. I told her I really don't care; if someday we break up and she's with somebody else, who she will be with is really none of my business - man or woman. I've known a lot of women who came out as lesbians, and then fell in love with a man and had to "come out" again. It's so sad we have to put labels on ourselves. I think we really will have reached acceptation when we won't need labels anymore - we will just be in love. And I know this day is not near.
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#11
09-08-2007, 12:25 PM
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I'd argue transfolk are where gay people were 20 years ago, with bisexuals in the middle somewhere. Or, maybe not even in the middle...I feel like they may or may not be "more oppressed" (oppression olympics is not a game I want to get into anyway), but that they're definitely oppressed differently. And, regrettably, by people from both sides of "the fence". I get really upset when I talk to other gay folks who "would never date a bisexual". This might speak to my inner cynicism, but I don't really expect to much from that great big straight world out there, but when I'm talking to other queer folks...it's really frustrating to me when they don't get it.
As for bisexuals in the media: I'm not sure how it's handled, but I thought there was a bisexual in a lesbian relationship on Degrassi or South of Nowhere. (I'm not able to watch either, really, so I get the two confused).
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#12
09-08-2007, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Zerbie, the fact that society thinks that gay, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgenders are freaks and sexual deviants is that misinformation, especially by mainstream media, still is the problem. I am an advocate of us telling our owm stories rather than letting others do it. A personal testimony goes a long long towards truth, healing, and encouragement. Gennee
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#13
09-08-2007, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Yet, I'll dispute your time-frame a little bit. I'd say trans folk are not now where gay folk where 20 years ago, but more like where gay folk where 30 years ago. Still just at the beginnings of mainstream awareness. That's just my opinion based on what I've seen of these things so far, and of course my memory of 30 years ago is very fuzzy and mostly consists of plush toys and learning to walk, read, etc., so that opinion could easily be swayed by more info. The bisexual thing IS different. There IS the matter of heterosexual privilege, either real or perceived. Then there is the matter of bisexual chic, which reeeeeally has never applied to gays, despite that some on the far right like to claim that being gay is somehow socially popular these days.  As to media: Interesting how this turned into a discussion of what public figures are thought to be bisexual. Keep it going! Yet, what I was focused on was an entirely separate issue: the depiction of bisexuals in popular fiction, film, Hollywood. At very first thought I cannot think of a movie with a bisexual character in which that character is not a cheat, a sexual predator, and maybe a murderer as well. That's what I was getting at with "images and perceptions," which those certainly are. Is that supposed to tell us what a bisexual is?? No wonder I didn't think I could be one! It's such a loaded term, and so conflated with behavior as to make mention of one's orientation appear to be an announcement about having an open marriage or something. Why on EARTH would someone think the two things have to go together? I saw a film a couple years ago, not regular Hollywood fare, a filmed dance production, called Car Man. The bisexual anti-hero swoops into town, gets hired at the local mechanic's shop, seduces the owner's wife AND an outcast young man, maintains sexual relations with both of them, kills his boss, and sets up his male lover to go to prison for it. THAT's the kind of thing I was getting at about the way bisexuals are presented. Just what does that imply about bisexuals? Now if it were just ONE story that would one thing, but there are so many other stories of the predatory bisexual.
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#14
09-08-2007, 06:37 PM
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The media depictions thing, I think, is just another way that bisexuals are "a little behind" on the movement. I mentioned in the movie thread the Celluloid Closet which has something to say about primarily depictions of gay folk (though I think bisexuals are mentioned), and the villainizing that you mention is a common theme for a VERY long time in film history for ANY queer folks. Gay imagery moved on, it seems, but bisexual imagery.... :-/
I don't have a good timeline, all I know I was shocked out of my little New York liberal arts college bubble once I started hanging out with my trans friend. The most I've EVER gotten, while walking with a boyfriend through campus (on parents' day, even) was a dirty look or two. She gets slurs from speeding cars. Worse, it didn't phase her or her girlfriend. "Oh. Yeah. That happens.".
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#15
09-08-2007, 08:35 PM
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Regarding bisexuality in movies, etc... Daniel's thread Torchwood was my first thought: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3647
I first saw John Barrowman in the new series of Doctor Who, where his character, Captain Jack, is decidedly and charmingly bisexual. No predatory implications at all. He is open about his attractions to both the Doctor and the Doctor's female companion. Nice kiss with the Doctor even...something new for a character that has been on TV since 1963!!! About Adam is a cute movie with Stuart Townsend. Mostly about his amorous adventures with all the girls in a family, but there's some strong innuendo about some possibilities between him and the brother of said girls. Good...bad? I'm not sure it has a morality about it, but for me he is a delightful character. He's too winsome to be a bad guy in any way. Both are UK imports.  As for American icons...Leonard Bernstein comes to mind. Pretty openly bisexual, whether or not it was well known.
__________________
There is no law against love.
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#16
09-09-2007, 05:42 PM
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Howdy Zerbie,
May I offer a little observation. Bisexuality is so misunderstood and the differences between the sexes magnifies this greatly. Have any of you read M.D.s, Glenn Wilson & Qazi Rahman's Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation, c2005? If not read it. It's essential. Turns out "Bisexuality" in males is pretty much a myth and it is kinda predatory through NOT like it's portrayed in movies, although I will say that it is done rather sensitively in Latter Days, c2003. Aaron thinks of himself as straight but different, then bi, but then realizes the truth. And in Saved!, c2004. Dean's experience has the ring of truth and Mary's plan is very understandable. Check those out. Here's the deal. Males are pretty much, exclusively bimodal -- majority expression straight, minority expression gay. It is VERY rare that a guy is actually equally attracted to both sexes and therefore bi. Females are SO different. Females are very much spectral in their sexual identity. It is very normal for 50% of females to be equally attracted to both sexes and it really is true that is the person a gal is attracted to, not the plumbing. In the other 50% they can be exclusively bimodal, or attracted to one or the other for extended periods of time and change over time. This makes it VERY confusing. Especially for males and females to arbitrarily enforce the same gender roles and norms for each other. I think this is the major source of confusion and miscommunication. We need to talk and listen to each other more intently and purposefully with compassion and open minds. That's my view for what it's worth. Here's a little plug for Reichen Lehmkuhl's book Here's What We''ll Say, c2006. He presents an honest point of view on his experience. He thought he was bi but then when he began his awakening he realized how wrong he was. He was a late bloomer and coming of age AFTER he entered the US Air Force Academy was a major conflict and trauma to him. The book has many flaws -- although the structure is very good and the storytelling authentic and very moving, it has MANY mechanical errors. Don't let them distract you and move beyond the clunky sentax stumbles. He tells it accurately from a guy's point of view. The ugly and painful pitfalls are laid bare. It made me cry very hard and grow. Thanks, Kev
__________________
--kev "One must live as if it would be forever, and as if one might die each moment. Always both together." --Alexander the Great [Mary Renault, The Persian Boy] "Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world: indeed it's the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Last edited by archyboi; 09-09-2007 at 06:15 PM.
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#17
09-09-2007, 08:29 PM
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Hi Kev,
Yes, agreed. Welcome to the forum, btw.   The fluidity of female sexuality versus the likelihood for male sexuality to be strongly oriented to one sex or the other has been mentioned here a lot. Very often by me.  That's simple observation from experience. I know a lot of females with self-described fluid sexualities, and/or who have drifted insofar as where they place themselves on the desire continuum, though I've met only a very few males who are genuinely bisexual. I'd be careful about stating that most bisexual men "are predatory" though - that plus calling it a "myth" (since for the few guys who ARE bi, it is not a myth) might create a bit of a storm. Why would you say that? I gather it's based on something you read, (maybe the "Born Gay" title) since you are such an avid reader. I haven't come across any of those books you suggested either. Maybe later when I have some more time I'll take a look at them. The one about psychobiology of sexual orientation sounds quite interesting. Oh hey, and Dash, sweetie: thanks for the movie/TV references! 
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi Last edited by Zerbie; 09-09-2007 at 08:29 PM. Reason: crappy writing
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#18
09-10-2007, 11:34 AM
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Zerbie OK didn't mean to use inflamatory language
I get you. But the problem is this. The reason I cited Born Gay is that the studies do not bear your thesis out. Turns out that a 1999 study showed this. 38 self-identified straight males, 35 self-identified gay males and 33 self-identified bi males were asked to participate which they did.
All of the males were pre-interviewed with standardized questions assessing their level of comfort with the subject of homosexuality. The gay males expressed no anti-gay sentiments. So did the bi males. But of the straight males who expressed no anti-gay bias and the others who did a VERY interesting result was observed. All of the males who expressed no anti-gay sentiments physiogenically responded only to the female/female soft erotic stimuli and not at all to the male/male stimuli. As expected. Guess what the other "straight" males responded to??!! Hmmm? Exclusively to the male/male stimuli and not at to the female/female stimuli. That's fascinating. Most males who expresses anti-gay sentiments are actually gay denying their true sexual identity, fabricating a false straight sexual identity and lying to cover this over with anti-gay rhetoric. So watch what people say. Ted Haggard is a classic closetcase. Have you seen Jesus Camp? I have. See it. His vitriolic & virulent anti-gay rant goes to such extremes that he is actually frothing at the mouth and sprays his audience. That's interesting. I have read his resignation letter -- it is pitiful & pathetic. The gay males responded as expected of course. But here's the REALLY interesting result. Of the self-identified bi males only a couple responded equally to both female/female & male/male stimuli. All of the remainder responded exclusively to the male/male stimuli and NOT at all to the female/female stimuli. Why? Because many males who are actually gay are so terrified of self-identifying as "gay" or exclusively "homosexual" that the furthest they can comfortably go is to self-identify as bi. That's interesting. So, I am sorry to use hot-botton language but my thesis remains true. That's all I was saying. Thanks, baby! --kev
__________________
--kev "One must live as if it would be forever, and as if one might die each moment. Always both together." --Alexander the Great [Mary Renault, The Persian Boy] "Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world: indeed it's the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Last edited by archyboi; 09-10-2007 at 01:40 PM.
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#19
09-10-2007, 12:45 PM
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I don't know how I missed this thread. Good discussion.
I identified as Bi for about 10 years, I guess. I was on my own with this, so no witnesses to confirm. And actually, my feeling was/is opposite than the "studies." I would much rather say I'm "gay" or "straight" than "bi." Bi means everyone has a reason to reject you ! Then there's the notion that, okay, being bi means you can choose. Noooooo. I mentioned in Troys thread that that is like saying which arm do you wanna give up, your right or your left. It's easy to see how bi people get the reputation they get, they have no "community," or flag, or churches, instead, they have a secret society. It's called survival.
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#20
09-10-2007, 02:08 PM
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Paul this is interesting
Please share with me your experience if that's not too cheeky of me to ask. If so disregard my inquiry. I know it is but still I'm so interested.
Are you really turned on equally by both sexes? I don't mean you can perform. I mean emotional connection and truely turned ON by both. Is that true for you? I know it never was for me. The closest description of how I always felt inside is portrayed by Reichen Lehmkuhl in his book, Here's What We'll Say. He couldn't get up the nerve for so many years to have sex with a gal. He had TONS of "girlfriends." He was very lucky they never pushed him or treated him badly. It's different for him, though, just look at him -- what guy or gal would kick him outta bed for eating crackers and making crumbs! When he finally got up the courage to have sex with a gal he immediately knew he was just going thru the motions -- he preformed and she felt GREAT -- but, zip, nada, nothing for him, no spark at all. But, when he had his first male experience is was like he was on fire -- totally turned ON and rushing, emotions, feelings, images and sparks like he had NEVER felt before. And it wasn't even sex, it was a highly charged emotional circumstance when the other guy grabbed him into a fierce embrace and buried his face into Rick's neck and it was like nothing he had NEVER felt before. He'd made out with lots of girls but this was radically different. He knew this was how he was hardwired. He just knew. Choice wasn't an option. That's the same for me & suspect most gay men. As it is for straight men with gals. I remember so vividly my first arrousal at 11. It scared the holy f$%# outta me I'll tell you. I lived near the beach growing up and I remember I was MUCH more interested in the men in trunks than the gals @ 12. That scared me cuz I thought it was a phase I'd grow out of -- I never did. I couldn't perform with a girl either. Had "girlfriends" too but nothing goin' on, ya know? I'm not dissing you, I'm just really interested in your view. Is this true for you, really? --kev
__________________
--kev "One must live as if it would be forever, and as if one might die each moment. Always both together." --Alexander the Great [Mary Renault, The Persian Boy] "Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world: indeed it's the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Last edited by archyboi; 09-10-2007 at 02:22 PM.
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