Honesty.

[mmalm]

I recently transferred from Trinity Bible College in Ellendale, ND, a stop on the 2007 Equality Ride, for which I was present. I recently read a blog on this site from one of the members of SoulForce that came to Trinity. I must say I was very disappointed on how the blog twisted so much what really happened. It was first stated that the group was only given a small fenced off area at the edge of campus where the surrounded streets were barricaded from traffic. You must understand that Trinity is a tiny campus- the road was the only road that runs by the campus, and it was barricaded for the groups' safety, not to isolate them. It was also stated that the Vice President stood between the group and the TBC students most of the time they were there, to make it awkward for students to approach the group, which is untrue. Students were not restricted to any area, and could have talked to any of the group members at any time- most just chose not to. I don't think it was unreasonable for our Vice President to be present as it was a matter concerning the students of our college. The one thing said that really offended me most in the blog was the statement, "We had been greeted by the Vice President in the morning, who had told us that the students had neither been told to talk to us, nor to ignore us–that it was of their own volition if they wished to enter into dialogue with us. We found out the next day through the local newspaper that this was not the case. The students had been told not to leave campus." The local newspaper was not present because one does not exist- the closest media came from Aberdeen, SD, which is 40 minutes away. It makes me very sad that this group would jump to the conclusion that the Vice President of our Bible College told a bold-faced lie, and that the news reporter from 40 minutes away knew better. As I student I will tell you that at absolutely no point in time was I ever told not to leave campus.
Although I may not agree with everything this group represents, I do respect it, as do the rest of the students and faculty at TBC. Although the visit was unwanted because the protesting went directly against our doctrine, the school still willingly accommodated the group by giving them a safe place to protest our own values. It makes me sad that reports in the newspaper and even blogs on this site would stretch the truth to make their Christian brothers and sister look guilty of things they did not do.

[Dash]

Hello mmalm,

I'm glad you stopped by to express your reaction. Was this the article to which you were referring?

http://www.soulforce.org/article/1176

From this article:

On Monday, April 23rd, Equality Riders along with 6 friends from CoffeeLoft.org, a progressive campus ministry at the University of South Dakota, held vigil in a small 'free speech zone' set up on campus at Trinity Bible College in Ellendale, North Dakota. Working with local emergency services, the school put up metal fencing around our zone. All streets leading up to our vigil were barricaded and one student told the local paper that, though she wanted to talk with us, she felt she needed to 'respect the school's wishes' and refrain.

In this article, I didn't see anything about the Vice President of Trinity, but you may be referencing another article, which I would like to read. If you can provide that link, I would be grateful.

In any case, I think your emotions and your indignation deserve full respect. You are experiencing the same kind of feeling that gltb folk have experienced for many, many years when listening to some of the awful, misleading rhetoric that comes from religious leaders and their followers. This pain at hearing someone say something that is in direct contradiction to your own experience of Truth...something that colors you, or those you love in less than flattering light...feels like an attack for which you have no defense. If you can add to that feeling the dread of losing your mother's or your father's love, the respect of your faith community, the trust and company of your friends, the civil protections of your community...then you will understand how much deeper our pain is as we bear the burden of untruth that is laid upon us by generations of religious anti-gay thought.

I'm sure those who blogged about their experience as Equality Riders were speaking from a place of honesty. Their perspective is the only one they saw. If you arrived in a location and metal fences were put up to house your group, would feel in your heart that they were for your protection? Would you not find them to be more cage-like?

I guess it depends on which side of the cage you stand.

Which side do you stand on, mmalm? Inside? Outside?

How does that change your perspective?

Peace...Dash

[Daniel]

mmalm- Welcome to the Soulforce forum.

Like Dash, I would be interested in any information that you could provide regarding your assertions.

You mentioned that Soulforce was barricaded for their own safely, which seems rather implausible, unless they would be in danger from the law abiding students of Trinity. Do you really mean to make the case that Soulforce was in danger?

Three members of Soulforce were arrested for nonviolent resistance. This speaks for itself.

http://www.kxmb.com/Life/116996.asp

[sailaway58]

Wouldn't chapel be open to anyone?
3 arrested for wanting to attend a service?

And the sign said anyone caught trespassing would be shot on site,
So I stood on the fence by my bus and said, what gives you the right?
What gives you the right to keep me out and to keep heterosexuals in?
If God were here he'd tell you to your face, man you're some kid of sinner!

Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs...

[mmalm]

http://www.soulforce.org/blogs/author/wick-thomas/

The above link is the blog to which I was referring. In reference to Dash's comment, I do understand the feeling of hearing someone say something that is in direct contradiction to your own experience of Truth. I face it every day with friends and family who are not saved, and who have lost respect for me now that I am. I was in no way in my post meaning to be ignorant of the feeling of the people representing this cause. Again, I may not agree with all that the group stands for, but I very much respect the people involved, even after the demonstration.

In response to Daniel's comment- the barricades were set up by the Ellendale Police Department, not by the school. When I said they were set up for safety, it was because the protest happened right on the street, which is like I said the one street that goes past campus, so it has a lot of traffic. The safety I was referring to would be from the traffic that would have been going through all day.

I'm not sure how much of Sailaway58's comment was meant to be serious, but I'll respond to it anyway. The three that were arrested were not trying to attend a chapel service. They were arrested during one of the class periods during the day, which is why many of the students were present, because they did not have class that period. I will assume the poem wasn't meant to be literal, as there obviously was no such sign.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I do have a question that has been burning in my mind. This is a completely serious question, not meant to be biting or offend anyone. I am wondering why, when the group is not allowed on campus, it still comes to make a big show of getting arrested and making sure the media is there to show it. From my perspective, it seems like the main thing the group was trying to accomplish was to make the college look bad. If that wasn't the case, then why call up the media and make sure to let law enforcement know so that arrests can be made? Why make our fellow Christians look badly to the public, who then, if they are not Christians themselves, will have an even worse view of Christianity? It just seems like it is driving the lost further away from Christianity by making it appear so judgmental. I fully understand the groups values and goals, but I don't understand the means. Dash spoke about losing the love of a father or mother...but would you go to their place of work and make a scene to protest that they do not accept your views on homosexuality?

I do have one more serious question. I am wondering if SoulForce has a policy on how to respond if a group comes to their headquarters to protest, and if so, how would it be handled?

Again, I am in no way trying to be offensive, I am just trying to understand.

[Daniel]

MM- Thanks for the link.

Originally Posted by MM

In response to Daniel's comment- the barricades were set up by the Ellendale Police Department, not by the school. When I said they were set up for safety, it was because the protest happened right on the street, which is like I said the one street that goes past campus, so it has a lot of traffic. The safety I was referring to would be from the traffic that would have been going through all day.

Does this mean that the school would have preferred to have Soulforce's visit unbarricaded, but the police thought otherwise? For their safetly from traffic?

It would be more honest to say that the goal on the part of the school was not crowd control, but rather, to keep Soulforce as far away from possible. This is understandable when one considers the fear that can can surround issues such as sexuality and matters of faith.

Originally Posted by MM

The three that were arrested were not trying to attend a chapel service. They were arrested during one of the class periods during the day, which is why many of the students were present, because they did not have class that period.

MM- I'm sure you are making a point here which I fail to understand. Your words seem to contradict themselves. It was a class period....but they didn't have class?

The link you've provided from this site reports this...

After we held a short ceremony blessing each one of the shawls, we handed them to two students from USD and one of our Equality Riders. These three women carried the shawls onto campus, intending to place them at the foot of the chapel cross and to continue to pray.

Attending chapel...going to chapel. This hardly seems a point worth fighting over. That said, I'm not surprised that media often get the facts muddled.

Originally Posted by MM

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I do have a question that has been burning in my mind. This is a completely serious question, not meant to be biting or offend anyone. I am wondering why, when the group is not allowed on campus, it still comes to make a big show of getting arrested and making sure the media is there to show it. From my perspective, it seems like the main thing the group was trying to accomplish was to make the college look bad.

Tthe answer to your question is found in an understanding of the methods of nonviolence, which you can find on this site.

That said, it is unaccurate to suggest that Soulforce's motives (I do not speak for SF btw) have anything to do with shaming your school. Their presence was an honest attempt to reach those who, through no fault of their own, have little understanding gay persons and matters of faith.

Originally Posted by MM

I do have one more serious question. I am wondering if SoulForce has a policy on how to respond if a group comes to their headquarters to protest, and if so, how would it be handled?

From what I gather, you would be welcomed with open arms. Does anyone know if such a thing has taken place?

[mmalm]

This is understandable when one considers the fear that can can surround issues such as sexuality and matters of faith.

I don't believe it was fear at all, but simply the fact that the protests go directly against our doctrine. If you have a child that you are nurturing and teaching as they grow, I don't think it is unreasonable to not want someone who teaches something directly against what you have been teaching them to come try and undo what you have done. I'm not saying that college students are like little children, but simply that Bible College is a place where students grow tremendously on their relationships with the Lord, and learn (in most cases) much more than they have ever known through Bible classes, daily chapel, etc.

Also, Trinity had been in contact with other schools that SoulForce has visited when trying to decide whether to let them on campus. One specific visit was to the North Central campus, where students had difficulty getting to class because the protesters sat/stood right in front of the doors to the classroom buildings. I don't think it is unreasonable for the administration to not want that to happen at our school.

To clear up the question about my chapel statement, at every college that I know of, not every student has a class every period. For example some students may have class 4th period, some may not, it depends on their schedule. The reason I specified that they were not trying to attend a chapel service was because Sailaway58's comment said that that was the exact reason why they were arrested, was for trying to attend a chapel service.

That said, it is unaccurate to suggest that Soulforce's motives (I do not speak for SF btw) have anything to do with shaming your school. Their presence was an honest attempt to reach those who, through no fault of their own, have little understanding gay persons and matters of faith.

If that is the case, then why call the media from a town 45 minutes away to make sure they will be there, if their sole purpose is to reach the students at Trinity Bible? Also, I realize that there is little to no chance of either of us convincing the other that their position is wrong, but I do find it offensive for you to tell me that I and my fellow students "have little understanding gay persons and matters of faith." I have read through the entire Bible and have a sound knowledge on what it says about these issues. I have not once attacked or insulted your knowledge of the Bible, even though your perspective is different from what I believe is truth. You are right, that I cannot personally understand the feelings and emotions of gay persons, but please do not insult my knowledge of the Bible and "matters of faith."

[marutidas]

First of all, you kinda go it back words, It's that Gays and Lesbians are become something that you don't want them to be, its they are become who they were ment to be.

If God has a plan for everyone, then would that not mean, at least from my point of view, that he made gay people to teach others how to love, and learn to except all kinds of love. If a church cannot understand how to this then they are the one's who need help, not us. Unfortunately when two sides of an opposing arguement come clash, it is very rarely peaceful on either side. What is Docterine to Love, can you truely annylize or subjegate these feelings, In the end its a bunch of words, with no substance. But to live in Love and want others to feel loved, is truely doing the Lord's work.

Marutidas

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by mmalm

I, but I do find it offensive for you to tell me that I and my fellow students "have little understanding gay persons and matters of faith." I have read through the entire Bible and have a sound knowledge on what it says about these issues. I have not once attacked or insulted your knowledge of the Bible, even though your perspective is different from what I believe is truth. You are right, that I cannot personally understand the feelings and emotions of gay persons, but please do not insult my knowledge of the Bible and "matters of faith."

But it is true that many people, especially many young people raised in environments where being gay is not "allowed" or talked about, do NOT understand gay persons.

I am at a public university. Not long ago, a lovely young woman entered our degree program at the masters level having done her undergrad at a religious school. In conversation, she repeated something that she had always been taught about gay people, something which happens to be false, and frequently used as a weapon for denying gay people equal protection under the law (jobs, housing, and much much more). In her case, it was simply something she had been taught by everyone around her before. There was a gay man listening, and he shook with hurt and anger while trying to remain calm and polite, explaining to her that it is simply NOT SO. I witnessed the conversation and tried to help mediate the hurt, angry feelings he had and the feeling of being "on the spot" and embarassed that she had at being caught by his reaction. She is a lovely person, and meant no harm by what she said, but it hurt someone nonetheless. And she appeared embarassed and confused.

That incident illustrates a compelling need for students at these religious schools to at the very least be EXPOSED to real information about what life is like for actual gay people. For everyone's sake. Otherwise, when these people graduate such a sequestered environment, they will have no idea what they're walking into in the "real" world.

[mmalm]

In response to Zerbie, why are you under the impression that "students at these religious schools" are not exposed to what life is like for gay people? I have friends who practice a homosexual lifestyle, as do many of my friends at Trinity. There are even students at Trinity who used to practice that kind of lifestyle, including one of my best friends. Just because students at Trinity may not agree with the lifestyle, certainly does not mean they are not exposed to it. We do not live in a box at Bible College. True, those of us who do not practice that lifestyle may not know the feelings and emotions of gay persons, but a protest is not going to solve that. Also, I think it is very wrong and offensive to conclude that because a student goes to a religious school, that they are not living in the "real world."

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by mmalm

It makes me sad that reports in the newspaper and even blogs on this site would stretch the truth to make their Christian brothers and sister look guilty of things they did not do.

MM, you are on thin ice here. Your posts are highly anti-gay, in my opinion. I'm willing to let this conversation procede, for the moment.

The bottom line is this. Your school, like many other religious schools that are protected from regulation in spite of their students receiving federal financial aid dollars, is advocating philosphies, dogmas, and prejudices that we believe are incredibly harmful to gay & lesbian young people... the LGBT students at your school and the young people whom your graduates will affect through their careers, ministries, etc.

These philosophies, dogmas and prejudices are the cause of much emotional, mental and spiritual dysfunction in the lives of LGBT young people. We use the term "Spiritual Violence" because of the very real harm that is done to God's precious LGBT kids and their families.

You're throwing a tantrum because your bubble was penetrated for a few moments.

Put your seat belt on, because we are committed to bursting the bubbles that keep the hearts and minds of God's people insulated from the violence of their actions, words, and dogmas towards LGBT people.

The goal isn't for you to be comfortable... the goal is for the violence to stop.
(and I speak only for myself, as a volunteer, as a person committed to social justice... and not on behalf of this organization)

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by mmalm

In response to Zerbie, why are you under the impression that "students at these religious schools" are not exposed to what life is like for gay people? I have friends who practice a homosexual lifestyle, as do many of my friends at Trinity. There are even students at Trinity who used to practice that kind of lifestyle, including one of my best friends. Just because students at Trinity may not agree with the lifestyle, certainly does not mean they are not exposed to it. We do not live in a box at Bible College. True, those of us who do not practice that lifestyle may not know the feelings and emotions of gay persons, but a protest is not going to solve that. Also, I think it is very wrong and offensive to conclude that because a student goes to a religious school, that they are not living in the "real world."

Allow me to reiterate Nathan's warning about your posts being anti-gay. The words that I've highlighted in red indicate your lack of knowledge about gay and lesbian people. There is no lifestyle. To continue to frame your argument using these words diminishes all gay and lesbian people to their sexual activity. Reducing people to a sex act is an insult. It is this kind of spiritual violence that we fight. For all the talk from the religious right about glbt people wanting "special rights" based on their behavior (ie, not a "real" minority) it really is the religious right that wishes to define us as such, especially when they use those terms to cut living, loving people down to mere sexual behavior. Please review the Forum Guidelines to which you agreed when you joined the forums.

[Dash]

Originally Posted by mmalm

I have friends who practice a homosexual lifestyle, as do many of my friends at Trinity. There are even students at Trinity who used to practice that kind of lifestyle, including one of my best friends.

And...no need to burnish your gay-friendly credentials, neighbor.

Honestly...try telling your gay "friends" that they are "practicing a homosexual lifestyle" and see how many of them appreciate it.

I practice singing.

I love my boyfriend.

[paul]

mmalm,

Zerbie was trying to help things along not insult you, her illustration was really good.
you asked:
In response to Zerbie, why are you under the impression that "students at these religious schools" are not exposed to what life is like for gay people?

You are giving that "impression." As has been pointed out, your choice of words demonstrates ignorance at best...I don't mean that as an insult. The example Zerbie gave was of a wonderful person who simply didn't realize she was hurting someone, and you are repeating the illustration yourself.

Shall I assume you are practicing a heterosexual lifestyle? No? Never thought of it that way? Just doing what comes naturally? Or were you really born gay and are just choosing to be heterosexual?

[mmalm]

First, let me say that I in no way meant to offend anyone with any of the terminology I have used. I thought I was using terminology that was not offensive, which is clearly not the case, so would those who have posted in reply to that please tell me what non-offensive references I can use? Keltic63, I did read the Forum Guidelines you provided (I'll admit I hadn't read them before) but I'm don't see any of them that I am violating. If you could please tell me which specific ones I have, I will make sure it does not happen again. The Guidelines do say "Any posts deemed by the Soulforce staff to be anti-gay will be removed. First time offenders will always receive a warning via private message." As I said, I in no way meant my posts to come off as anti-gay, and since they have not been removed I will assume that my intent is understood by the staff. Also, I have not received any private messages warning me against what I have been posting. But once again, I apologize for anything that may have offended anyone.

NathanATX, I am sorry you feel I am "throwing a tantrum because your bubble was penetrated for a few moments." If you will refer to my first post, my purpose of posting was because I felt a blog that was written about a visit to my school stretched the truth to make my college look like they acted in a way that they did not. I'm not sure what you mean by my bubble being penetrated- as I said, I am friends with gay persons, so certainly if I am understanding you correctly, my bubble has already been penetrated. You are right, it is not about me being comfortable, but it is about sticking to the truth of the events that happened.

To clear up any questions, that is the sole reason I started this thread, was just to say that during these protests, participants should be careful not to stretch the truth in what really happened to make their cause look better. I in no way meant to begin an argument about what doctrine is right and wrong. If it seems that that is what it has been reduced to, it is only because I wanted to throughly respond and explain things that were talked about in replies to my posts.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by mmalm

I recently transferred from Trinity Bible College in Ellendale, ND, a stop on the 2007 Equality Ride, for which I was present. I recently read a blog on this site from one of the members of SoulForce that came to Trinity. I must say I was very disappointed on how the blog twisted so much what really happened. It was first stated that the group was only given a small fenced off area at the edge of campus where the surrounded streets were barricaded from traffic. You must understand that Trinity is a tiny campus- the road was the only road that runs by the campus, and it was barricaded for the groups' safety, not to isolate them.

So what is questionable is the number of streets...

It was also stated that the Vice President stood between the group and the TBC students most of the time they were there, to make it awkward for students to approach the group, which is untrue. Students were not restricted to any area, and could have talked to any of the group members at any time- most just chose not to. I don't think it was unreasonable for our Vice President to be present as it was a matter concerning the students of our college.

So, he *was* there. You're simply asserting his "intent" wasn't to "make it awkward."

The one thing said that really offended me most in the blog was the statement, "We had been greeted by the Vice President in the morning, who had told us that the students had neither been told to talk to us, nor to ignore us–that it was of their own volition if they wished to enter into dialogue with us. We found out the next day through the local newspaper that this was not the case. The students had been told not to leave campus." The local newspaper was not present because one does not exist- the closest media came from Aberdeen, SD, which is 40 minutes away. It makes me very sad that this group would jump to the conclusion that the Vice President of our Bible College told a bold-faced lie, and that the news reporter from 40 minutes away knew better. As I student I will tell you that at absolutely no point in time was I ever told not to leave campus.

So you're questioning the integrity of the Equality Riders because of an article a reporter wrote? Nice.

Although I may not agree with everything this group represents, I do respect it, as do the rest of the students and faculty at TBC. Although the visit was unwanted because the protesting went directly against our doctrine, the school still willingly accommodated the group by giving them a safe place to protest our own values. It makes me sad that reports in the newspaper and even blogs on this site would stretch the truth to make their Christian brothers and sister look guilty of things they did not do.

You clearly have an issue with said reporter and not with us. Demonstrate some, how did you say it... "honesty" and take your problem up with him/her.

[mmalm]

My problem is, as I stated in my post, that the author of the blog basically wrote that our Vice President had lied to the group, based on what the reporter said. In his mind it obviously wasn't that the reporter was confused, it had to be our administration being dishonest.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Dash

And...no need to burnish your gay-friendly credentials, neighbor.

Honestly...try telling your gay "friends" that they are "practicing a homosexual lifestyle" and see how many of them appreciate it.

I practice singing.

I love my boyfriend.

A gay auntie of mine -- and an author of some repute, though far be it of me to name-drop -- once told me, when asked whether he was a "practicing homosexual" said:

oh, darling, no; I perfected it long ago.

[Harrumph.]

[mmalm]

I also practice Christianity. As I said, I wasn't trying to be offensive and have apologized.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by mmalm

My problem is, as I stated in my post, that the author of the blog basically wrote that our Vice President had lied to the group, based on what the reporter said. In his mind it obviously wasn't that the reporter was confused, it had to be our administration being dishonest.

Again, you're being dishonest.

Instead of getting clear with the author of the blog AND the reporter about what was said or done, you're throwing a tantrum here, attempting to defame US because you are apparently reading the mind of a blog author, a reporter, and a university vice president... all at the same time. (I went to ORU and didn't learn mind-reading... did I miss out?)

Demonstrate some integrity. Get your facts straight. Get this resolved with the actual people involved.