Equality Ride's visit to BYU

[maklelan]

Hi everybody. My name's Dan. I just joined this forum after getting an interesting e-mail about a future visit to my college campus. I attend BYU here in Provo, Utah. Reading the mission statement of this organization got me a little concerned about the assumptions that both sides of this issue seem to be making. I'd like to comment on Tobi's concerns first, sharing what I believe about the situation.

I don't believe I am defined by my sexuality. I don't believe it's a concrete thing that I'm born with, but I do believe genetics gives us a propensity toward one or the other ends of the spectrum of sexual orientation. I believe that, to some degree or another, almost everyone has entertained (at least mentally) sexual desires that fall oustide the particular orientation they generally subscribe to. These urges come and go inexplicably, but I don't believe the Lord holds us responsible for mere urges. A leader in our church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) compares various kinds of sins to birds flying around over our heads. It's ludicrous to think we can keep them from swooping down and swatting us from time to time, but what we can do keep them from building a nest in our hair. In every single sin ever committed there is a choice. The choice is not whether or not we will have certain desires, but whether or not we will act on them. Therein is the responsibility. Is it a choice? To have those tendencies - of course not. To act upon them - absolutely.

I joined the Mormon church when I was twenty, and I dabbled in a lot of different things before I became religious. My conversion was a very special experience for me, and I've never looked back, but I know how strong certain desires can be. I have a friend who is barely able to control some of the urges he has. He feels a very strong attraction to some mebers of his own gender, even though he is very happily married. He has spoken with ecclesiastical leaders about his concerns on many occasions, and the counsel is always the same: we all have difficult struggles. Some struggle with alcoholism, some with gambling, some with pornography and some with homosexual proclivities. There's no reason to be depressed or self-condemning because we suffer from these afflictions, we just have to live every day the best way we can and know that those with bigger hurdles to overcome in this life will be the ones with greater recompenses in the life to come.

I have to go, but I'd like to continue discussing the mission of this organization and its goals.

[awediot]

Hi Dan, Hope your experience with this group is a comfort and challenge....Dated a guy who attended BYU. Good school, good people, peculiar rules.

I appreciate your openness and less than damning attitude. I also see that you underestimate homosexuality and lump it into a fairly trivial catagory. I think we all at some time in life ponder "experimenting" and have the chance to satisfy a natural curiousity. Its called HORNINESS. Growing up gay is more like discoverring those birds already built that Birdhouse in your Soul with your hair. Swatting them away wasn't given as an option. It is not about a simple desire or lust, friendship with perks or lack of will to abstain, it is what you can't help but to Love and want to Love you back. And it is as deep and difficult as if you HAD to change your desire for the ladies (I assume). Is the feeling you have for them mere urges that come and go? Do you remember wanting to be straight? If you couldn't turn gay, could you turn celibate, give up the idea of finding someone and be alone the rest of your life? Could you Fake it enough, ogle guys to not look suspicous, flirt with the waiter or get a phony partner to keep in school, or keep your parents, or friends, job, house or keep from getting the hell beat out of you, or tied to a fence and left to die? Could you fake it to your other half to get all these things? Would you try to fake it to a God that wouldn't help you change it?--If this is not worthy of depression, nothing is.-- At sixteen I wanted my license and car mostly so I could hit a train on accident to fool God it wasn't suicide (ah, the good old days)... But I chose instead to eventually ACT on my proclivity and found acceptance, Love, warmth, companionship and a desire to survive for the first time. I also found God still there, telling me to treat my boyfriend well. That's all, same rules apply...

I do not want to presume anything about your friend, but if he is experiencing the normal, gay turmoil, I would suspect he would prefer to be a drunken, gambling straight perv if God would only remove the anguish likely going on in His Soul. Your sympathy for him is kind. But your comprehension of his struggle is so far nonexistant... Your time on this site may not be meant only for you... Tell him about it.

[Zerbie]

Awediot makes several important points, and I'd like to lend support to one. He mentions that maybe Dan's friend would rather be a gambler and an alchoholic and be straight, than be gay and living a well-adjusted life. It's entirely possible, I know b/c I went through something like that. I'm bi, but wasn't attracted to men at all when I was very young. Only ladies. When I was 19, a much older married man became interested in me and though we were NOT being physical, we did become inseparable for a couple of years and everyone around us assumed that we were having an affair. I remember the night it started, I was about to pull away in order to avoid getting entangled and letting people think I would do such a thing, when I had this lightning bolt of brilliance: 'If everyone thinks I"m having an affair with a married man, then they won't think I'm homosexual!' And so from then on, I encouraged it, because I would rather have been perceived as an immoral straight chick, than as a moral lesbian. I shake my head at all that now.

[maklelan]

If you want to live that life that's fine with me. I'd never tell anyone how to think, but that brings me to my next point. The mission statement I read for this Equality Ride is this:

"The Soulforce Equality Ride will take thirty-two young adults on a seven-week bus tour from New York to Los Angeles to confront nineteen religious schools and military academies that ban the enrollment of GLBT students. Their journey is unique - never before have young activists banded together to challenge homophobia at the institutions that are largely responsible for GLBT discrimination."

Your "confrontation" appears to be designed to get policies to change. You have your religious beliefs, and we have ours. To go to this school you have to sign an "honor code" that states the mission of our school. We are trying to provide an education for people who want to do so in an atmosphere consistent with the values and beliefs we hold. There are many things we agree not to do. We agree not to be in the apartment or house of a member of the opposite sex after midnight. We agree not to view pornography, drink alcohol, and engage in many other activities our faith is not consistent with. We are a private University, and we have the right to require that our students abide by these principles. If you want to come to this school you have to sign that agreement. If you don't want to abide by the policies, don't come to this school. You're in effect, telling us that we are not allowed practice our religion even in our own space and on our own dime. The policies we subscribe to are the doctrine of our church. They are the same standards that we have anywhere else.

The other problem I have with this statement is the assumption that what we promote is homophobia. We teach and believe that all people, no matter what, are our brothers and sisters, and all sons and daughters of a father in heaven. We teach acceptance and love for all. It's inevitable that some grow intolerant, but that exists among every single group on the planet. Gays and lesbians have just as much a tendancy to be intolerant as anyone else. I do not fear gays and lesbians. My aunt is a lesbian and I lived with her and her wife for a summer. I am perfectly comfortable around them, but I find it hypocritical to come to our campus to tell us that we must change so that you don't have to. I must respect your right to believe and practice what you want, but you don't have to respect mine?

Our school does not ban gays and lesbians, but we do not allow anyone to enroll who won't abide by certain principles, and homosexual activity happens to be one of them. Many gay students put their extra cirricular activities on hold during enrollment, and many students have to do the same for other activities. You can be gay here, we just ask that you don't participate in homosexual sex, just like we ask that unmarried students don't participate in pre-marital sex. Why should your urges be granted sanction while ours are not?

[Jamie McDaniel]

Dan, from your posts I am guessing you are not homophobic, but you are dealing with heterosexism. Homophobia is a fear of same-gender attraction, whether it is one's own attractions or anothers. Heterosexism, on the other hand, is the belief that a heterosexual sexual orientation is superior to a homosexual one. Heterosexism is often tied up in religion, and so it becomes a belief that one sexual orientation is the morally superior one.

You said that you and your school had your religious beliefs and that you should be entitled to those beliefs. Ok, there is certainly some truth in that. But Dan, you are also part of Christianity, a valued member of the body of Christ, the Church (with a capital "C"). And there are things that are not ok for Christians to believe. It is not ok to believe that black people cannot be full members of a church. It is not ok to believe that women cannot be preachers. It is not ok to excommunicate divorced people.

Now these are all things that some Christians believe and in one sense they are free to believe these things -- after all, everyone has free-will and this is a free country. However in a much larger sense, these beliefs are not ok because they violate the work of the inclusive Spirit of God.

Here's my statement and it may shock more than a few.
Not all religious views are equal. Those of us who identify as liberals can sometimes get tripped up with inclusiveness that it actually becomes a danger to justice. In our fight for inclusiveness, we include views that are wrong.

I feel that Martin Luther King argues this point in his article titled “Pilgrimage to Nonviolence” (A Testament of Hope, page 35) where he actually says that he found some aspects of liberalism in his day wanting.

Among those who hold anti-gay beliefs, this is sometimes argued like such: “You liberals champion tolerance yet you are intolerant of my religious views.” Dan, I feel that this echoes your complaint about the Equality Ride coming to BYU.

Yes, we all should be on a journey towards truth, and indeed we all have components of the bigger truth -- but if one's religious views are such that they make a legitimate group of people second-class, then those beliefs deserve to be challenged in hopes of positive change. One can hold such beliefs, of course, but they should not be seen by the larger community as being equal.

Bottom-line: People should be equal, not beliefs that keep us from being equal.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

But Dan, you are also part of Christianity, a valued member of the body of Christ, the Church (with a capital "C"). And there are things that are not ok for Christians to believe. It is not ok to believe that black people cannot be full members of a church. It is not ok to believe that women cannot be preachers. It is not ok to excommunicate divorced people.

This is where I disagree. Not on the issue of race or divorce. I disagree with the assertion that homogeny is Christ's will. I also disagree with the idea that you speak on behalf of Christ's Church. Your idea of Christ's Church and mine are completely different. I'm not telling you you're not allowed to believe those ideas, but your doctrine is not universal. It doesn't claim to be revealed truth either; it has come from a human interpretation of the scriptures, guided by the fickle system of ethics that is blown by the winds of moral relativity. I do not believe in moral relativity and I do not believe that everyone should have all the same roles. Men and women are different for specific reasons. The scriptures give women certain roles and men others. I can't give birth to a child, but I don't argue, fuss and fight about how God delegates privileges and responsibilities. I believe His will is beyond us, and I don't question it. Rather than change the scriptures to fit my values, I try to change my values until they are in line with the Lord's. This is, I believe, is the problem with much of religion today. I am not a slave, and I am not a sheep. I seek out divine confirmation and knowledge of every tenet I subscribe to, but I put His will above my own.

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Not all religious views are equal.

I agree with you here, but I see your goals as trying to apply a uniform value system onto the world's different religions. I believe in absolute truth, and I believe that there is one true religion and thousands of others that are really good guesses, but I don't force my values upon those that disagree with me. I live my life and I hope you are happy living yours; but what you ask is for me to compromise my values to put them in line with yours. There is no compromise on your part. It is complete and total surrender that you seek, and, this may surprise you, it may not, but that will never happen at BYU. We believe our University to be under the general administration of men of God, and they are guided by revealed principles that are non-negotiable.

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Among those who hold anti-gay beliefs, this is sometimes argued like such: “You liberals champion tolerance yet you are intolerant of my religious views.” Dan, I feel that this echoes your complaint about the Equality Ride coming to BYU.

My concern with the Equality Ride is similar, but I do not oppose it entirely. If you want to bring awareness and tolerance that's perfectly fine. I'll show up and I'll wear one of your T-shirts, but to say that you're on a journey to "confront" our University and try to change its policies is a violation of the very same principles you hold to. You demand equal rights. We ask that you respect our right to practice our religion according to our own beliefs. We afford you that right. We are not coming after you, but you are coming after us.

The right to attend a University is not a natural right. It is not a natural right because you must qualify to attend any university. You do not have a natural right, no matter who you are, to attend our university. Our university sets ethical standards as a qualification, and our standards reflect the values that we hold very, very sacred. One of those is that homosexual relations are a grevious sin. You are demanding that we overturn the values we believe God has revealed to us. You are telling us that we are not allowed to believe that homosexuality is a sin. You are infringing upon our natural and constitutionally protected right to practice our religion as we see fit. You mask this argument in "equality," but you would have equality only for you. If you were allowed into BYU then you would be given license to break our Honor Code while everyone else must adhere to it. Is that equality? Your rights are to be fought for and taken, but ours are to be dashed to pieces because you feel we are discriminating against you. We also discriminate against murderers, rapists, and thieves. I'm not putting you in their category, but we believe all these things to be sin, and we have a right to do so.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Our university sets ethical standards as a qualification, and our standards reflect the values that we hold very, very sacred. One of those is that homosexual relations are a grevious sin.

To say that homosexual people, when they love and care for their partners, is a "grevious sin" is not just another opinion -- it is a way to make a whole group of people less-than, both in church and in society. It may be a value of yours, but it's source is not the Divine.

Every group has values. The White Citizens Council had values. That's why they came together, so they could promote those values to society. But those values were immoral.

[Jamie McDaniel]

At this point, it is appropriate to remind everyone of the Soulforce Community Guidelines. GLBT people have few safe places and I will not allow these forums to be used in order to give new life to those same, tired, old arguments that demean homosexuals.

[maklelan]

I don't mean to demean homosexuals at all. I would fight alongside you for your right to equality, but I just don't see this as an example. We believe that homosexual sex is a sin. We are allowed to believe this, and just because you think we're wrong does not give you the moral or legal right to demand it be changed. I respect your feelings on homosexuality. I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop, but please respect our right to practice our religion as we see fit. You ask the same of us.

[zephyr013]

"The Soulforce Equality Ride will take thirty-two young adults on a seven-week bus tour from New York to Los Angeles to confront nineteen religious schools and military academies that ban the enrollment of GLBT students. Their journey is unique - never before have young activists banded together to challenge homophobia at the institutions that are largely responsible for GLBT discrimination."

Perhaps if you can detach yourself for a moment, and view this mission statement and the equality ride as something other than an offensive, I sincerely hope that you can lower your defenses and see what the mission statement really is about.

In Luke 4:18-19 (KJV), Jesus said:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

There are brokenhearts on BYU campus. They are broken-hearted for a number of reasons. One reason is definitely the perceived attack on their right to happiness to live life married to someone of the same sex, in complete equality with heterosexual couples. That is something that BYU cannot offer them with the obvious discriminatory restrictions on homosexual marriage relationships. There may be some broken hearts at BYU who no doubt feel the oppression and captivity of such restrictions.

Equality riders visit to have dialogues (preaching the gospel of love and equality if you will) with students and hopefully administrators in hopes of opening their eyes to such oppression. We seek to do this because we have our truth and we believe that you are a victim of untruth. We do not wish to forcefully change your minds, but we hope that by meeting with us and discussing openly the issue, your eyes, or another's eyes will be opened and that by accepting our truth you may more fully experience God.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -MLK Jr.

I admit this sounds a bit bigoted, as if we have the monopoly on truth. But we don't. And that is the paradox! We may very well be suffering form the untruth.

Open dialogues are the only way that you will be able to help us, your fellow humans to fully live, if this is indeed the case.

Please, Dan, open your mind so that perhaps you will change ours.

In love,
Kyle

[maklelan]

Let me explain a little about our religion in general, so you understand why that expectation is a little presumptuous.

We believe that the Church that Christ established during the meridian of time, and all the ordinances and authority thereof, was lost at the time the Bible ended. We believe man injected Christ's gospel with the philosophies of the imperfect human mind. Fourth century Christianity and the creeds that go along with it are the predecessors of almost all Christian churches today, but those creeds and that brand of Christianity was heavily, pero heavily influenced by Neo-platonic, Gnostic and Aristotelian philosophies. Basically, it was no longer Christ's Church, it was man's church.

We believe this apostasy was predicted, and that a restoration would take place in the which all authority, ordinances and blessings of Christ's Church would be restored. We believe that these prophecies were fulfilled in the early 19th century, when God the Father and Jesus Christ visited a boy by the name of Joseph Smith and called him to be the prophet to restore all that was lost. We believe those principles found in the Bible (prophets, apostles, scripture, revelation and prophecy) have been restored. We believe the president of our church (currently Gordon B. Hinckley) is a prophet just as Moses, Isaiah, Paul or any other prophet from the scriptures. We believe they have the authority to say 'Thus sayeth the Lord" and really mean it.

I joined this church because I was looking for truth. I found it in bits and pieces all over the place, but I read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it, and I received an answer. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and so does every faithful Latter-day Saint on the BYU campus. We don't base that belief on research, science or logic, we base it on the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and I have received that testimony. We believe (because we've prayed and received confirmation from God) that our leaders are inspired men that have received divine appointments to guide the Church. This is how we feel about our Church and our school.

What you are asking all of us to do is deny that testimony and accept that our leaders are not inspired, guided or called of God. You ask us to deny the veracity of all of our church. We often le tothers know that our church is either the very Church of Christ, restored in our time, or the biggest hoax to ever fool mankind. You may believe the latter, but I do not, and I do not appreciate people trying to convince us of it. You will not succeed at that. Ever. I cannot speak for everyone, but I believe these things are true because the Spirit of the Lord has confirmed them in my heart and in my mind. I cannot and will not deny that testimony for any reason whatsoever. I know it is true, and (as Paul said in Galatians 1:8) even an angel from heaven couldn't convince me otherwise.

You may believe what you want. One of our articles of faith states that "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." I take that very seriously. I have spent years of my life in third world countries sharing the Gospel, and I have grown to respect and love many different faiths as a result. I would never tell another person what they should believe. I show them the light we have and invite them to investigate the truthfulness of it themselves.

Our last article of faith, and the basis for our honor code, states the following: "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed we may say we follow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

I would never tell anyone what to believe or who to love. I would never try to convince another that they must change or be living contrary to God. I would never go out of my way to try to make someone else's life harder. I also would never deny the actuality of the testimony that I have received, nor do I accept that I must do so in order to be living in accordance with the will of God. I pray several times every single day that I may understand His will better, and I believe I am getting there. I do not agree with you, but (as the saying goes) I would die to protect your right to believe that way. I really would. All I ask is that you respect our rights and our beliefs.

Coming into my school in an effort to try to convince me that my faith is a lie is not something that I take lightly, nor do I believe such a course to be a noble one. I hope you can understand how our faith precludes any of the concessions you intend to be granted. You will be frustrated if you expect to achieve them. I'm not saying that to be vindictive, I'm just telling you that it cannot happen, so don't get your hopes up, and don't get upset when it doesn't happen.

[Zerbie]

What an amazing conflict. It's entirely possible that this one never will resolve. As sure as you are of what you received from the holy ghost, I am just as sure of a mutually exclusive set of spiritual certainties. I appreciate your heart to care for others and hope it applies to all of us on this board, also when we run into these Butt Heads moments. I hope if you saw someone hurting me you would speak out and say it's wrong, and take steps to defend me, and I hope if I saw someone hurting you I would do the same. But we may never resolve the differences in belief.

I think it's okay to have different beliefs. Whatever The Truth is, it is whether we believe it or not. . .what's important here is how we treat one another. I can't possibly speak for the Equality Ride, only for myself. But it's worth wondering if their mission is to get you to change your highly valued beliefs, or if it might rather be to lend visible emotional support to any conflicted gay students there might be on your campus who feel lost because of a conflict between how they perceive themselves and what their religion teaches. If that is the goal, I wholeheartedly support them in that.

Personally, I tend to believe that a private organization should be allowed to create it's rules, even if they are rules I disagree with. There was a big feud where I am about a religious club at the university that was sued for excluding homosexuals from membership - and I supported that group for a long time until I learned that they were using public funds (funds to which I personally contributed) to exclude gay Christians. Only then did I stop supporting their right to define membership to exclude gay people. On your own turf, yes, you should do as you please, just don't do it with MY money, and the public's money. I would never consider joining such a group or attending a university like yours, because it would be so unbelievably wrong for me and such a poor fit. But I also recognize that there might be legitimate reasons why a gay student might end up there at your school. And I wish those people to be supported.

[Jamie McDaniel]

It should at least be noted that one of the Equality Riders grew up Mormon and also that members from the gay and lesbian Mormon group, Affirmation, will be participating during the stop at Brigham Young University.

[DoofSFNYC]

I'm very interested in your explanation of the unity of belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm a cradle Catholic myself, and have been taught something similar (by no means identical) about my own Church - that denying even the smallest part of the doctrine of the Church is denying the Church's authority as a whole, from the Pope on down to the parish priest who I know and love. However, at various times in the history of my church, changes to that doctrine have been made, big and small, without, in our opinion, changing the authority of the whole Church - in other words, the church has the ability to revise it's doctrine as greater revelation is received. Does the Mormon church have the same ability? Have there ever been beliefs or testimony, to use your word, that has been repudiated or changed or edited? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, but I can see how your experience would lead you to a complete rejection of our point of view (theologically speaking) since accepting it would mean rejecting your entire church. I know I wouldn't want to do that, but becuase my church has changed in the past, I know I don't have to. Yet

Originally Posted by maklelan

What you are asking all of us to do is deny that testimony and accept that our leaders are not inspired, guided or called of God. You ask us to deny the veracity of all of our church. We often le tothers know that our church is either the very Church of Christ, restored in our time, or the biggest hoax to ever fool mankind. You may believe the latter, but I do not, and I do not appreciate people trying to convince us of it. You will not succeed at that. Ever. I cannot speak for everyone, but I believe these things are true because the Spirit of the Lord has confirmed them in my heart and in my mind. I cannot and will not deny that testimony for any reason whatsoever. I know it is true, and (as Paul said in Galatians 1:8) even an angel from heaven couldn't convince me otherwise.

You may believe what you want. One of our articles of faith states that "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." I take that very seriously. I have spent years of my life in third world countries sharing the Gospel, and I have grown to respect and love many different faiths as a result. I would never tell another person what they should believe. I show them the light we have and invite them to investigate the truthfulness of it themselves.

Our last article of faith, and the basis for our honor code, states the following: "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed we may say we follow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

I would never tell anyone what to believe or who to love. I would never try to convince another that they must change or be living contrary to God. I would never go out of my way to try to make someone else's life harder. I also would never deny the actuality of the testimony that I have received, nor do I accept that I must do so in order to be living in accordance with the will of God. I pray several times every single day that I may understand His will better, and I believe I am getting there. I do not agree with you, but (as the saying goes) I would die to protect your right to believe that way. I really would. All I ask is that you respect our rights and our beliefs.

Coming into my school in an effort to try to convince me that my faith is a lie is not something that I take lightly, nor do I believe such a course to be a noble one. I hope you can understand how our faith precludes any of the concessions you intend to be granted. You will be frustrated if you expect to achieve them. I'm not saying that to be vindictive, I'm just telling you that it cannot happen, so don't get your hopes up, and don't get upset when it doesn't happen.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I think it's okay to have different beliefs. Whatever The Truth is, it is whether we believe it or not. . .what's important here is how we treat one another. I can't possibly speak for the Equality Ride, only for myself. But it's worth wondering if their mission is to get you to change your highly valued beliefs, or if it might rather be to lend visible emotional support to any conflicted gay students there might be on your campus who feel lost because of a conflict between how they perceive themselves and what their religion teaches. If that is the goal, I wholeheartedly support them in that.

There are many gay and lesbian students at BYU and there are more than a couple support groups here that are aimed at helping those students deal with the situation. I don't pretend to understand what it's like, but those of us who really and truly are trying to foster the pure love of Christ in our lives want to help anyone who needs it. Those who are intolerant don't represent the school or its policies any more than a fish represents the stock market.

Originally Posted by doofSFNYC

I'm very interested in your explanation of the unity of belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm a cradle Catholic myself, and have been taught something similar (by no means identical) about my own Church - that denying even the smallest part of the doctrine of the Church is denying the Church's authority as a whole, from the Pope on down to the parish priest who I know and love. However, at various times in the history of my church, changes to that doctrine have been made, big and small, without, in our opinion, changing the authority of the whole Church - in other words, the church has the ability to revise it's doctrine as greater revelation is received. Does the Mormon church have the same ability? Have there ever been beliefs or testimony, to use your word, that has been repudiated or changed or edited? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, but I can see how your experience would lead you to a complete rejection of our point of view (theologically speaking) since accepting it would mean rejecting your entire church. I know I wouldn't want to do that, but becuase my church has changed in the past, I know I don't have to. Yet

I'd like to talk about this, but I have to do a massage right now. There have been changes in our past of administration, but not doctrine or beliefs. Those changes have come about as a result of growth, and identical changes are found throughout the Bible. I believe a church should change its administration to account for many things, but I gotta go. I'll get back to you on this.

[awediot]

I posted this in another thread and I so enjoy the look of my own words, decided to spread it around a bit where it fits. It sums up alot.

In some belief systems, there is no room for a gay person at all, only levels of messed up straight ones. If one is thought of as a homosexual, they are either acting on it, sinning away and have given up the fight, or obsessed (posessed) with sinful urges, refraining and seeking help. Responsible, acceptable action is never okay. We're either really sick and deserving sympathy and prayer, (gee thanks, not too insulting) or a little less sick but at least we know it. (prayers answered)

Gay actions are done by straight people experimenting and being naughty. Gay people are just trying to love in the only natural way they know how...

[maklelan]

OK, I wanna address two issues that are always brought up when people talk about beliefs changing. Those are polygamy and denying blacks the priesthood. I'm sure a lot of you will be familiar with these issues, but for those who are not, until 1978 black men could not hold the priesthood, and until 1881, the LDS church practiced, in a small degree, plural marriage. People always point to these as examples of us changing our beliefs due to societal pressures. This could not be further from the truth, and here's why.

PLural marriage is a dodgy issue, but it was practiced in the Bible, and for an important reason. God wanted, fro mthe beginning, His people to be a strong and mighty nation. He promised Abraham his seed would be as numerous as the sand on the seashore. As there have always tended to be more women in the world than men, and men can reproduce much more repidly than women, God ordained the practice of polygamy. This was to strengthen the foundation of His people and increase numbers rapidly. This was important from Abraham all the way to Moses. When the people grew strong enough it was done away with. There is a chapter in the Book of Mormon that talks about how God delights in chastity and virtue. He likes His people to be monogamous. He later adds that He will command His people otherwise if He needs to "raise up seed" unto Him. Some see this as inconsistent, but keep in mind the Lord commanded the Levites to kill only four chapters after saying, "Thou shalt not kill." In our church we began as a very small group of people, and we were pillaged and plundered from town to town, until the UNited States succeeded in actually kicking us out. We are the only group of citizens to actually be forceably ejected from the country. Our foundation needed strengthening and the Lord commanded that certain people enter into the practice. When the church was strong that commandment was withdrawn. It was an administrative change made because of issues with growth.

As far as the priesthood goes, when the Lord gave it to Moses and Aaron He let only Aaron's sons administer in it. Later, as more people needed to be administered to, it was extended to all Levites, and still later (in the New Testament) to worthy Jews. The Lord prohibited more than two thirds of his people from holding the priesthood throughout the Bible. In our day similar practices took place. At first only certain men were called to perform priestly duties. Later it was extended to just about everyone except African Americans. Why the restriction? I have no idea. I don't know why the Lord does most of the things He does, but I have faith in Him. Most of the other tribes in Moses' day didn't get upset because they couldn't hold the priesthood. As the church grew and more members needed to be adminsitered to (specifically in the U.S. and Africa) it was extended to all worthy males. Another change in administration to account for growth in the church. Our beliefs and our faith never changes, but our administration must keep up with our size and our scope of influence.

these ar etwo of the examples people often cite when discussing changes. Change is a normal part of God's church, and I don't find in any passage in the entire Bible where God says He will not change His church. Doctrine never changes, but administration sure does.

[maklelan]

By the way, concerning the visit to my campus: I do the editorial cartoon for the BYU newspaper and I've been asked by my editor to come up with some material concerning your visit. It appears many people are concerned about your plan and your intentions. Any suggestions as far as what I should do? Keep in mind my feelings on the issue are pretty consistent with the student body, and I'm not out just to tick anyone off.

[maklelan]

OK, I was just looking over the e-mail I received from y'all about the Equality Ride, and I'm annoyed by something I found.

"This is the result of discrimination taught at Brigham Young University."

Discrimination is not taught at BYU. We are taught to love and accept everyone, and we are taught to be obedient. We have our values and we understand and respect yours. This statement is then made:

"BYU administration has reportedly told the student body that the Soulforce Equality Ride will be allowed onto campus to speak with students. Communication between the school and the Soulforce Equality Ride has been stilted, but we look forward to the opportunity to dialogue with students, faculty and administration about the misuse of scripture to oppress GLBT persons."

The administration has stated that Soulforce is welcome on campus just like anyone else who wants to, but they must follow the same rules that everyone else follows. Soulforce told us to make acceptions so they can fulfill their agenda and BYU said no. What kind of equality comes from exceptions?

The "misuse of scripture" quoted here is a joke. We have our very own canon of scripture and we believe we are guided by prophets. You can't really misuse your own scripture; I personally believe you are misusing the Bible, but that's your prerogative and I would never tell you to stop.

I would appreciate it if your litany afforded me the same equality and rights that you are coming half way across the country to demand from me.

[zephyr013]

On a cynical note:

We do not afford you rights. For one, we can not afford rights, they are not ours to afford or remove, and for another, you have more rights than we do.

I agree with you that "misuse" is the wrong word, because "use" without the "mis-" would have sufficed. Scripture should not be used to deny any God-imagined human equal rights.