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#21
03-24-2006, 06:38 PM
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maklelan,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your post above implies that your church extended the priesthood to African American men when it became practically necessary to do so (when the Church's scope increased and black people needed to be ministered to.) This to me implies that there was not a sufficiently compelling moral reason why this change had to be made. My question to you: do you feel it was a moral mistake for your Church to deny African American men the priesthood for as long as it did? In fact, is it possible for your church to make moral errors in its policies and teachings at all? I know that it is for mine, and such errors have and continue to be made! The reason I ask is simply that there's little point in having much of a conversation about your Church's teachings and policies if you insist that they are by definition right. Have a great weekend! |
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#22
03-25-2006, 12:03 PM
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[QUOET=themattperry]Have a great weekend![/QUOTE] Hey, you too. |
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#23
03-25-2006, 12:11 PM
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As far as scripture goes, the word "should" is a difficult word to support an argument on. It means you have superior moral judgment. It means you know what's best for me and for everyone else. It arrogates to you a lot more authority over my values than anyone really has. You use the word "rights" like it means something concrete and specific, but it does not. John Kery said Americans have the "right" to import drugs from Canada, but nowhere is that considered a natural right of Americans. You do not have a natural right to come to my University. I do not have a natural right to come to mine either. We are not denying you a "right" that was given you by any authority on this planet. If you want "rights' to be general then I am denied a lot more rigths by being a Latter-day Saint and a BYU student than you are by not being so. Our "rights' are inequal in your favor, but I don't think it's about "rights". |
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#24
03-25-2006, 12:19 PM
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#25
03-25-2006, 12:27 PM
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You make a strong point I have be contemplating my self. What is the difference between a "right" and "Right" or is there any. I think it is best to say a "Right" is something we as Americans thought the Constitution and the Bill of Rights grants us and as humans the Geneva Convention grants us. Namely these are basic rights which state another person cannot come and deprive us of our "Life, Liberty or Pursuit of Happiness." Yet there is a strong confusion when it comes to a "right." Being a freedom we have but is not fundamental to our basic human identity. A perfect case is at Regent University Haven Harren, the co-director of the Equality Ride, stated she had a right to talk to those students. She’s partly correct; she has the right in the freedom to talk to anyone she wants to. But it is not a fundamental right and it is one that can be taken away, as in the school saying "you cannot come on to campus." She still as the freedom to choose to talk to any student but it now carries potential legal repercussions because that right was rescinded. Also the assertion the right is fundamentally hers only shows a deep disrespect for the school and the students. It is tantamount to me as a Pentecostal trying to "witness" to you to tell you LDS is wrong, I am acting in good faith to my conscience that I am trying to save you. Yet when you ask me to stop and I do not I cross the line and impede on your right in favour of my own. Of course this only works in a perfect world... where we recognize what our "Rights" and "rights" are and respect the "Rights" and "rights" of others. -Venari |
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#26
03-25-2006, 12:44 PM
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But in comparison, LDS members can adopt children, serve openly in the military, give blood, and marry each other in all fifty states. |
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#27
03-25-2006, 01:54 PM
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#28
03-25-2006, 01:57 PM
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#29
03-25-2006, 03:07 PM
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I was ecstatic to see that Soulforce was coming to BYU. I am a gay student at BYU (as I write, I look around to make sure that nobody will see). I have been through 4 years of therapy trying to change. I have "fasted" to the point that I weighed 105 lbs. I lost 35 pounds in a year trying to "fast" my sexual desires away, as the prophet suggested in a book called the Miracle of Forgiveness (aka the most depressing book in the world). I apologize for the vagueness of my email, but the paranoia at BYU is incredible, and the vagueness is necessary in order to ensure my continuing student status at BYU. The BYU student editor on your forum expresses a belief that BYU is a sympathetic and caring place. I wholeheartedly believe this. The students at BYU ARE kind, friendly, and do try hard to do what is right. Unfortunately, their right is dictated by a heterosexual man who was born in the early 1900s. If the BYU editor would hold true to his journalistic principles, then he would find that homosexuality wasn’t an issue in the “restored gospel” teachings until the Civil Rights movement and that George Albert Smith was gay (read A Peculiar People), and bi-sexual at the least. I believe that members of the BYU and LDS community have the right to hold to, and practice, their beliefs and standards at their private university. However, change will never take place without people like Soulforce who give voice to those who cannot.
I did not come to terms with my sexuality until I felt like I was too invested in my education at BYU to transfer schools. With a cost-benefit analysis I traded my self-respect and my choice to be authentic with those around me, for an easier route to my educational goals. I did make the choice to attend BYU initially, but when you have been inundated since the age of 18 months with the message that there is a part of you that is unacceptable, when you are 18 and decide to attend BYU, you expect those feelings to go away as a function of your dedication and faithfulness to the LDS teachings, especially with the help of the honor code Nazis as they police the websites you surf and plea bargain with those who have already been turned in for their sexual transgression in exchange for names of others like you. This is not Christ-like. Jesus did not hunt down those around him and force them to turn others in. Jesus did not hold courts of judgment (although by your teachings, He is one of the few with the right to do such) and send letters to parents of adult human beings to tell them that their son/daughter has been expelled from BYU. Jesus did not kick people out of His presence because they challenged His beliefs, or lived lives that were contrary to His way of life. I have been in a committed monogamous gay relationship for many years. I do not understand how a person's actions, commitments, and expressions of love can be seen as sinful and worthy of being expelled from their educational institution. The LDS church preaches about agency and choice and has a history of their own in dealing with oppression and hate from others. I am not asking to have premarital sex. I am asking to be able to show those around me who I really am. Sexuality is such a small part of me, but at a campus like BYU, my sexuality is an indirect topic of discussion 6 out of 7 days of the week. I am not able to share my experiences that I have with the person I love, with my classmates, professors, or anyone else. I have walked across campus thousands of times. I have never heard anyone call another student by racially or culturally derogatory names, with the exception of the words “fag”, and the phrase “that’s so gay.” This is not an exception to the rule. I have heard it dozens of times; on the sidewalks, in the WILK, during classroom discussions and even classroom presentations. I sit and say nothing. And neither do those around me. It is BYU's version of the Red Scare. I have a lunch date with my partner, so I must go, but I want you to know that your visit to BYU is an answer to many, many, many gay prayers. |
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#30
03-25-2006, 04:11 PM
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Wonderful! Thank you too SF
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shamelessselfpromotion |
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#31
03-25-2006, 05:32 PM
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To the BYU stdent: I'm sorry people make you feel like you have to hide who you are, but it's one of the problems of have too sheltered and bigoted a childhood. I grew up surrounded by gays, blacks, Muslims and cult members. the "rights" you mentioned are not dictated by a man. We believe they are dictated by God, and the values we practice haven't changed since the church began. George Albert Smith was not gay. Every person in history (from Abe Lincoln to George Bush), at some point or another, is accused of being gay. Usually it's because they had close friends of the same gender. I have a friend that I would do anything for. We tell each other we love each other, we served missions together in Uruguay and slept in the same room for six months. We are perfectly straight. I suggest you finish reading Miracle of Forgiveness, because the second half of the book lets us know that sin is inevitable, but it doesn't matte, because the Atonement wipes it all away. Some people will never get rid of homosexual desires, but that doesn't mean you have no choice but to engage in homosexual sex. Many people choose lives of celibacy because of one reason or another, and they're perfetly happy. As far as the "honor code Nazis" go, only about 2% of all recorded honor code violations had to do with homosexual conduct. The vast majority of it is just ignored. Your conspiracy theory about some professor bashing his fists into a steel table and demanding names from a cowering little offender may evoke indignation, but it is completely false. There's no such thing as an honor code "plea bargain" and they don't grill people so they can go track down others. If you've heard stories like that I'm afraid you're misinformed. "Fag" and "that's so gay" have just become colloquial parts of speech, and I hear it come more often from gays than from straights. I don't use that kind of language, but if you dont want straight people using it so much then let other gay people know it isn't helpful to use phrases like "breeders" and "gayly forward" and stuff like that. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to be equal then don't use language to try to hold up those barriers. |
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#32
03-25-2006, 05:57 PM
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Welcome closetcougar
Closetcougar, if you don't know about Affirmation, I hope that you'll check them out. Their website is www.affirmation.org
Also, if you haven't seen the movie Latter Days, it is a really sweet movie about a gay Mormon. And Family Fundamentals is a good documentary that tells the story of Christian families with gay members. One of the families is Mormon. Watching that film is the first time I learned about sacred underwear.
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#33
03-25-2006, 05:58 PM
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sounds like we're in agreement here at SoulForce then. |
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#34
03-25-2006, 08:02 PM
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We do not come to tell you that your faith is a lie. We come to look at the pain that your religion causes as articulated by the gay and lesbian students on your campus. We come to talk about human suffering and what we, as the larger community that includes you and me and anyone of compassion, can do to solve that. And, yes, right now, the obvious solution to me is a change in your religion. If we view that the religion is the root of the suffering, then of course we want to address the root. But let's focus on a middle ground where we can come together and establish our common concerns and common pursuits. The is a lot to be learned by everyone concerned, and I hope that we can get to brass tacks, as they say, and engage in civil discourse about it rather than miss this opportunity for dialogue simply because we disagree.
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Haven Herrin Soulforce Equality Ride Co-Director |
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#35
03-25-2006, 09:42 PM
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Thank you.
Maklelan,
At the risk of sounding patronizing, I would like to commend you on your conduct on this board. It is no doubt frustrating to fight for your beliefs when you are so outnumbered. I encounter that daily. I am deeply hurt when I learn of people suffering from misinformation and untruth. I am sorry for religious discrimination you have faced because of untruth of other authorities of other forms of Christianity. I do believe that Mormons are blessed by God. And I am reminded of what King said: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. That's why I will stand for Truth and not for a particular ideology. And not just for my Equality, but for all Equality, for EVERYONE. Maklelan, you deserve to be able to express your beliefs in the way you've found to be honest for you. Don't I deserve to to be able to express my love in the way I've found to be honest for me? Whether or not you believe that the answer to that question is yes, it does not change the Truth that we all deserve equal treatment.
__________________
~~~~~~ Kyle When you get the blanket thing, you can relax, because everything you could ever want or be you already have and are. -I <3 Huckabee's- |
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#36
03-25-2006, 10:23 PM
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I cannot give blood. I have been spit on, shot at, had rocks thrown at me(on several occasions), and several people have attacked me at knife point. My friends have been denied access to schools because they were Mormon, and I have been kicked out of several public places. I used to get harrassed at gay clubs I would go to with my friends because I was straight. They would tell me I wasn't welcome because it was "their" club. That stuff doesn't really bother me, but we all have to deal with unequal treatment.
Maklelan, I have no doubt that you know what it is like to be a minority and I am guessing that if you could have the option of not being spit on, shot at, held at knife point, kicked out of public places, denied entry into some schools, harassed at gay clubs etc. then you would do what you could do change it. That is what we are trying to do. We all have to deal with unequal treatment, but that doesn’t make it right and that doesn’t mean it can’t change. Furthermore, such unequal treatment certainly isn't Christ-like. To the BYU stdent: I'm sorry people make you feel like you have to hide who you are, but it's one of the problems of have too sheltered and bigoted a childhood. I grew up surrounded by gays, blacks, Muslims and cult members. I'm not quite sure I understand what you were trying to say above... but thanks for your apology? Me having to hide who I am is more a result of being at BYU, a community of 30000 people living sheltered lives, rather than a sheltered bigoted childhood. Most kids who come out, before they come out, have been harassed much of their lives about their sexuality. I’m guessing that most gay people, no matter when they came out, didn’t live that sheltered or unbigoted a childhood. I'm not quite sure I understand the meaning of your upbringing, either. Is that to say that you are used to being different? You forget, regardless of times when you feel like a minority, and you may be, the majority of your life is spent as a straight white male. the "rights" you mentioned are not dictated by a man. We believe they are dictated by God, and the values we practice haven't changed since the church began. George Albert Smith was not gay. Every person in history (from Abe Lincoln to George Bush), at some point or another, is accused of being gay. Usually it's because they had close friends of the same gender. I have a friend that I would do anything for. We tell each other we love each other, we served missions together in Uruguay and slept in the same room for six months. We are perfectly straight. I applaud you for being on this site and hope I do not speak hurtfully, as I admire your attempt to be open, and am grateful for the opportunity to have some sort of dialogue with someone from BYU. Regarding George A. Smith, just read the book. Not every person in history has had a book written about their gayness. My brother and his companion, who are both attractive socially adjusted people, post mission have lived together for 6 years, his companion was on the ballroom dance team, my brother (age 27) has never kissed a girl, and they are both planning on attending the same law school. I don’t know about you, but when it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, I call it a duck. It may not be a duck, but I give it my best estimate. Which God are our rights dictated by? Yours or mine? The values that the LDS faith has practiced HAVE changed. . . blacks receiving the priesthood, women no longer standing in ordination or blessing circles, the word of wisdom, the temporal end of polygamy, birth control, abortion, etc… I suggest you finish reading Miracle of Forgiveness, because the second half of the book lets us know that sin is inevitable, but it doesn't matte, because the Atonement wipes it all away. Some people will never get rid of homosexual desires, but that doesn't mean you have no choice but to engage in homosexual sex. Many people choose lives of celibacy because of one reason or another, and they're perfetly happy. Sin is also subjective. The book also states that if you ever engage in a sin that you have repented of, it’s as though you were never forgiven for any of the past offenses of that sin. Some people will never get rid of heterosexual desires either, but MY God will still let you in, as long as you have treated people in a Christ-like manner. Imagine if the prophet came out tomorrow and said that God told him that homosexuality was the new law. You could no longer be with your wife/husband and if you were, you were living in sin. Any psychology book will tell you that social support is a necessary part of a psychologically healthy life and that marriage is good for your health, all around. Why then, would the church discourage such a bond? The best and only reason I have ever heard, is that “it’s a sin.” I can’t really argue with that and I do respect people who have beliefs, but it doesn’t mean that I won’t have a dialogue about it (obviously). As far as the "honor code Nazis" go, only about 2% of all recorded honor code violations had to do with homosexual conduct. The vast majority of it is just ignored. Your conspiracy theory about some professor bashing his fists into a steel table and demanding names from a cowering little offender may evoke indignation, but it is completely false. There's no such thing as an honor code "plea bargain" and they don't grill people so they can go track down others. If you've heard stories like that I'm afraid you're misinformed. I actually don’t have that conspiratorial (I looked that word up on the thesaurus view of most of my professors. Although I don’t have conversations about my personal life with them, many of them seem frustrated by the suffocating nature of the “board of directors” at BYU and the strict code to which faculty must adhere, thereby limiting the hiring options at BYU. Unfortunately the "honor code nazis" DO indeed exist and we hide behind usernames online and fake IDs at clubs, in order to vent without paying a price. To be hones with you, I am surprised that you admit going to a gay club due to the honor code office. My partner was turned into the honor code office by his/her ex-boy/girl friend because the bishop told him/her that in order to be fully forgiven s/he needed to report those whom s/he had sexual relations with. When my partner was called into the honor code office, they showed him/her a file of incidences that they had tracked. My partner was told that if s/he would give names of other students, s/he would only be put on probation, rather than expelled. When s/he refused to do so, they kicked him/her out. S/he had only one semester left in order to graduate, and spent the next 2 years finishing his/her degree at another university. There are all sorts of ways of getting a more lenient sentence from the honor code office; if you are worried that someone has turned you in, go and turn yourself in and they will think that you have felt the guilt of the spirit and would like to change your life. Another popular method is apologizing profusely and thanking them for catching you so that you could turn your life around."Fag" and "that's so gay" have just become colloquial parts of speech, and I hear it come more often from gays than from straights. I don't use that kind of language, but if you dont want straight people using it so much then let other gay people know it isn't helpful to use phrases like "breeders" and "gayly forward" and stuff like that. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to be equal then don't use language to try to hold up those barriers.[/QUOTE] I hear the N word from black people, but I sure as hell am not going to go around saying that because I know that it is hurtful. However, I also don't judge black people who do. They are coming from a different place than myself and using the N word for them, serves a different purpose than it would for me. Being gay has become a way of life that a large part of the world has adjusted to. By your logic, you should no longer consider homosexuality a sin b/c it’s a colloquial part of life in much of the world. Like you, I have taken the example of Maya Angelou and I try to promote tolerance among people by letting my gay friends know that “that’s so gay” “fag” and “breeder” isn’t acceptable speech. I am only saying that a double standard does exist on campus and I hear it MUCH more often from heterosexual people than from gay people. The N word is never used and neither are many other racial epithets, with the exception of gay terms. Even though BYU claims that gay human beings are welcome to attend school as long as we don’t practice, the remarks and other statements made by students, send mixed messages. The students are tomorrows church leaders members and policy makers and the people who I believe that Soulforce will influence. In all fairness I have never heard such phrases or words come from those in authority positions. I am not saying that YOU are to blame for the individual behavior on BYU campus. I'm just saying that Soulforce is something that many of us look forward to. Gotta go prepare my sunday school lesson Soulforce member, Thank you for referrals. I have seen Latter Days and I have visited the Affirmation website. I can resonate with your take on it. Keep up the good work and thank you, thank you, thank you. |
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#37
03-26-2006, 12:44 AM
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I need to make a clarification regarding my earlier post. When I referenced a "sheltered bigoted childhood" I was referring to the proclivity of some LDS parents to teach their children that homosexuals are bad people. My dad hated my Mom's sister beause she was openly gay, and the idea of having me stay with her in San Fransisco for any period of time irritated the crap out of him. I was raised in a somewhat bigoted family, but they've chilled out a ton since then. Many, many students here come from similar circumstances, and they jsut act on the principles they wer eraised with. While we do believe homosexual relations are a sin, we are taught by the church that we need to love and appreciate all people as daughters and sons of God, irrespective of the trials and tribulations they're called upon to go through in this life. If an LDS person judges you personally or forces that kind of dominion over you because of some perceived moral superiority, you can rest assured that they ar not acting in accordance with the principles of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe the church is perfect, but we're well aware of the fat that not a single member of it is. It is a tragedy that that kind of oppression is present, and your visit could do much to change that, but not if your intention is to tell us our religion is wrong. This is where you shoot yourselves in the foot. Come to promote better understanding and we (should) welcome you with open arms. Come to tell us our religion is wrong and must be changed and you only drive the wedge of misunderstanding and inconsideration deeper. Please consider that befor before you tell me I need to open my mind.
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#38
03-26-2006, 03:05 PM
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Your Religion IS wrong. My Religion is wrong. Untill a perfect religion sweeps across this planet, flawlessly fillig in every gap, all we have are reflections... Challenge all Prophets. True ones invite skepticism. Unquestionable declaretion of Law is a sign of corruption. Carefully open your mind.
This is an attack on false teaching anywhere, everywhere, by no means just BYU. You wrote early on that." My conversion was a very special experience for me, and I've never looked back,", and that is deep and True and I would never soil that. I'm hoping that you gain the confidence in God, to start looking back, and with His help, examine where your Church, and their Church and my church, may have certain particulars wrong... They do. They all do. Rooting them out only leads to Truth.
__________________
shamelessselfpromotion |
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#39
03-26-2006, 10:26 PM
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That's an interesting perspective, and I believe my religion does fill all the gaps, but you don't because you're different. We're all different, and to say that a religion will, should, or can fill all the gaps means we have to give up our individuality to be a part of it. God does not develop religion to pander to our will. God creates religion to help us levitate to His. The true religion is not the one that says no one has to change. The tre religion is theone that affords man the pathway by which he may become more like God. I am a student of the Bible. My major is Ancient Near Eastern Languages, and I study the Bible in the original tongues. If there's one thing that is inescapable in the Bible it is that men must conform to the will of God, and not the other way around. From Adam to John we are told that we must become more like Him and forsake all that does not fit. If you want to believe another dogma that's your prerogative, but it is not Biblical. If you would like to engage me in a discussion of Biblical issues or Christianity I would be happy to oblige.
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#40
03-26-2006, 10:44 PM
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Dan,
I don't know if this is in the Bible or the BOM, but we are also told, "men are that they might have joy." I have had personal revelation that my happiness brings me closer to God and he is pleased with my decision to live an authentic life, one which also happens to make me happy (aka gay). |
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