A Small Response To "Homosexuality and the Bible by Walter Wink"

[stev0]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this before but I heard a sermon this summer that made me think about homosexuality in regards to Christianity.

As Walter Wink stated "Paul's unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior in Rom. 1:26-27 must be the centerpiece of any discussion."
While looking into Greek definition of the word natural in this context I see something different about this passage than Walter does.

He concluded that the word natural was talking about what we are naturally inclined to do.(psychologically) & and assumed that Paul did not understand what was normal.

Paul wrote that homosexuality is not "normal." If you look up the specific Greek word used for normal here, you would find psuchikos. This Greek word means natural, but what I found interesting here is the specificness of this Greek word. Psuchikos' root word is phusis, which means physical. So the full meaning of the word psuchikos is physically natural; and it's not that Paul said they were psychologically unnatural but specifically stated that it was physiologically unnatural.

Lastly, it means that its just basically not natural for our bodies to work like that and we all know how it fits together "naturally."(psuchikos)

Well I know my words will offend some, but I'm not trying to be arrogant in my words. I pray that if I'm wrong in my words someone will be able to convince me otherwise. I post this out of my love for fellow believers. I pray you'll consider my words.

Gimme some feedback I wanna know how everyone here feels about this.
thanx for letting me voice my heart on this one.

[tdogg]

Stevo

First, a very warm welcome to the SF forums to you.

Second, you want us to consider your words. Which words would that be? Why do you so strongly want us to 'consider' them? In other words, what is your true motivator for posting?

Lastly but certainly not least, you will find a myriad of posts to answer your questions if you just take the time to read through the forum threads. They have been answered and re-answered, explained and explained again and again. All you gotta do is take the time to read them. Then perhaps you can come back to this thread and let us know what you have learned, and give us some new questions. We've all put down our thoughts, experiences and explanations all throughout the forum threads. There are also numerous posts regarding Biblical translations in respect to the scriptures you quote and others. I think you'll find the information quite useful.


Happy reading.

Tdogg

[u-dog]

Welcome Steve,

Before long our resident Greek Scholar, Andrew Little (another straight guy) will be along to engage you around your parsing of the Greek. that is not my area of expertise particularly.

My analysis of the Romans passage is Rhetorical in nature. Paul is making a subtle and complex argument that begins in Romans chapter one and concludes in Chapter two.

The first thing to realize is that Paul is not really addressing the immorality of the gentiles. He's setting them up as bait in order to catch a different quarry. Paul is addressing a mixed population of Jewish and Gentile Christians who undoubtedly already agree with him that a lot of the stuff thats going on in the surrounding culture is gross (including but not limited to certain undefined homoerotic acts). Paul makes the point that the SOURCE of these outrageous behavior is IDOLATRY. They do these things because they have worshipped the creature rather than the creator.

Once Paul has got the Roman Christians (especially the Jewish ones) sufficiently enraged over the nastiness of their Roman Pagan neighbors and has made the connection between Idolatry and these behaviors, Paul does an interesting thing. He turns the tables on them. In the beginning of Chapter two he warns them not to judge their neighbors because "you are doing the same thing"

Homoerotic sex acts? no. Idolatry. Only THEIR idolatry is an idolatry of the Law. they are worshipping the law rather than the God of Grace and are trading the truth for a lie.

Paul's REAL targets are the Jewish Christians who can't quite escape from a reliance on the law and wish to impose it upon their gentile brothers and sisters.

Kind of Ironic don't you think? That fundamentalist Christians with a pharisaical love of the law use this argument to bludgeon gay Christians? Its amusing to me that whenever right wing Christians lift up the Romans passage they ALWAYS stop reading before Chapter two (where the Apostle is waiting to drop a brick on their heads)

I hope you don't find THIS offensive.

[stev0]

lol
Thanks for the post

[scott snedeker]

being true to one's nature requires love of one's self. I can't imagine God wanting me to live any other way. Making love to men connects me to my basic primaeval heart of innocence, Innocence of judgement by myself or others when my natural capacity to love passionately was a beautiful thrill of discovering the joy of sex. This is God's design. Innate feeling followed by laughing and joy and sharing something wonderful.

Lucky for me I'm a Pagan. We not only see sex as spiritual wholeness but not having sex as disconnection from God. So far this repeatedly rings true to my soul. How can joy be wrong?

[stev0]

"Kind of Ironic don't you think? That fundamentalist Christians with a pharisaical love of the law use this argument to bludgeon gay Christians? Its amusing to me that whenever right wing Christians lift up the Romans passage they ALWAYS stop reading before Chapter two (where the Apostle is waiting to drop a brick on their heads)"

Well, I suppose I would consider myself fundamentalist
I don't so much prescribe to a legalistic view of the law. My only point is that it is considered sinful or to my knowledge it is. Being gay doesn't mean your not saved or (going to hell). Not trusting in Christ as the propitiation for our sins, and turning our lives over to him is what leaves God no choice but to justly punish us.

I don't seek to bludgeon anyone for being gay. I've had inclinations of the same myself and I would hope that if anyone genuinely thought I was going against what God would have for my life He/She would attempt to direct me as best they could as part of God's sanctification of my life (and the life of any other believer {to become more Christ-like as we grow in our faith})

We won't be judged by any of our sins if we are truly saved (ie. faith/repentance/perseverance of faith)

I am most deserving of God's wrath and yes, Paul does through the Holy Spirit does drop a brick on our heads and convicts us through the Word and by fellow believers such as yourselves.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by stev0

Well, I suppose I would consider myself fundamentalist
I don't so much prescribe to a legalistic view of the law. My only point is that it is considered sinful or to my knowledge it is. Being gay doesn't mean your not saved or (going to hell). Not trusting in Christ as the propitiation for our sins, and turning our lives over to him is what leaves God no choice but to justly punish us.

Hi Stevo- you lost me here. What is the 'it' referring to in the second sentence? The fact of being gay?

Originally Posted by Steve

I don't seek to bludgeon anyone for being gay. I've had inclinations of the same myself and I would hope that if anyone genuinely thought I was going against what God would have for my life He/She would attempt to direct me as best they could as part of God's sanctification of my life (and the life of any other believer {to become more Christ-like as we grow in our faith.]

Inclinations of what? That you are gay yourself?

Originally Posted by Steve

I am most deserving of God's wrath and yes, Paul does through the Holy Spirit does drop a brick on our heads and convicts us through the Word and by fellow believers such as yourselves.

And because you fear you might be gay you think you deserve God's wrath?

Well...you've come to the right place if you to discuss these matters, but you won't find anyone here telling you that you deserve of God's wrath because of your sexuality, whatever it is.

Which begs the question: what you you hope to get out of your interaction here? What's your goal my friend?

Oh.....I grew up Pentacostal....as did quite a few other people around here. We 'get' the whole thing re fundamentalism, if you know what I mean.

[Steven E. Webster]

Steve,

I'm another Steve---common name.

What do you make of Paul's other uses of the same word (phusikos--or however you spelled it). Later in Romans Paul says that God has grafted the Gentile Christians into the Jewish people "contrary to nature," just like someone would graft a wild olive tree onto a domestic olive tree "contrary to nature."

Paul also describes short hair on women and long hair on men as "contrary to nature." Seems to me that if you let it, hair just naturally grows.

I think your analysis of the word Paul uses is a little too simplistic.

Further, if Paul claims that homosexuality is unnatural, then Paul is just simply mistaken. Homosexuality is natural. It would not be the only time that the Bible has been shown to be mistaken about some factual matter relating to the natural world. The Bible isn't, after all, a book about science--it was never intended to be that.

Many of us here believe that our road to sanctification, to maturity in Christ, is not hindered by our acceptance of our homosexual orientation and our commitment to our same-gender spouses. Quite the contrary, we have found that we cannot "go on to perfection" (sanctification) without embracing our sexual orientation and our love of our spouses.

Steven Webster

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Many of us here believe that our road to sanctification, to maturity in Christ, is not hindered by our acceptance of our homosexual orientation and our commitment to our same-gender spouses. Quite the contrary, we have found that we cannot "go on to perfection" (sanctification) without embracing our sexual orientation and our love of our spouses.

I resemble that remark!

[stev0]

to: Daniel

"Hi Stevo- you lost me here. What is the 'it' referring to in the second sentence? The fact of being gay? "

Yes.

"Inclinations of what? That you are gay yourself?"

When I was younger I explored the idea of pursuing a gay lifestyle, but I no longer pursue that lifestyle or want to.

"And because you fear you might be gay you think you deserve God's wrath? "
No. Not that I "fear" being gay. That sounds kinda silly. But I feel that everyone on the face of the planet including myself deserve God's wrath because we have sinned against Him in numerous ways (lieing, lusting, killing, stealing, etc.)

"Which begs the question: what you you hope to get out of your interaction here? What's your goal my friend?"

I've never had any real conversation on this topic with anyone who considers themselves to be Christian and homosexual. I wanna know what people think. Also, I obviously believe my perspective is a correct from what I've gleamed from scriptures and my pastors. So, if my perspective on these things is wrong in relation to the Christian God and His revealed Word...I'd like to be corrected...along with all that mumbo jumbo I just want to hear varied responses (thus the forum here).
----------------------------------------------
To: Steve

"I think your analysis of the word Paul uses is a little too simplistic."

You may very well be right. thank-you for your thoughtful response.
But I still think the words used in that passage are very specific and your response to it does not take away from my first post's point... or I'm mistaken and haven't understood you correctly.


thanx again to everyone who's replied

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Steve,

I'm another Steve---common name.


Many of us here believe that our road to sanctification, to maturity in Christ, is not hindered by our acceptance of our homosexual orientation and our commitment to our same-gender spouses. Quite the contrary, we have found that we cannot "go on to perfection" (sanctification) without embracing our sexual orientation and our love of our spouses.

Steven Webster

alas, it is oh so common. I called BrentRichards last night and used my full real name to identify myself. It turns out that he knows someone else by that same name and was surprised that I didn't sound like the guy he knew....well, I wasn't the guy he knew.

It is very clear to me that my living out the natural orientation that God has gifted me with is extremely important on my spiritual journey. I was most hindered by attempting live as a straight man. I see the blessings of God on a daily basis, and soon my partner and I will be married! It will be our chance to declare our love for each other before God and our friends and family.

Originally Posted by Daniel

I resemble that remark!

soon, I will too! although, I must say that in so many ways, we feel that bound together as one already.

Originally Posted by stev0

I don't seek to bludgeon anyone for being gay. I've had inclinations of the same myself and I would hope that if anyone genuinely thought I was going against what God would have for my life He/She would attempt to direct me as best they could as part of God's sanctification of my life (and the life of any other believer {to become more Christ-like as we grow in our faith})

Sweetie, closets are for clothes, not people.

[stev0]

Hehe, thanks keltic
but it looks like i'll have to live life in the closet till I die or my wife does.
since i got married last dec. woot

[stev0]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Stevo

First, a very warm welcome to the SF forums to you.

Second, you want us to consider your words. Which words would that be? Why do you so strongly want us to 'consider' them? In other words, what is your true motivator for posting?

Lastly but certainly not least, you will find a myriad of posts to answer your questions if you just take the time to read through the forum threads. They have been answered and re-answered, explained and explained again and again. All you gotta do is take the time to read them. Then perhaps you can come back to this thread and let us know what you have learned, and give us some new questions. We've all put down our thoughts, experiences and explanations all throughout the forum threads. There are also numerous posts regarding Biblical translations in respect to the scriptures you quote and others. I think you'll find the information quite useful.


Happy reading.

Tdogg

To: tdogg

thanks for the welcome and I hope by the other posts i've answered most of your questions, but as for my questions already having been answered...

I know they have and I'm sure the information is hear and all over the internet for me to dig through, but it's much simpler and more interesting to get live up to date responses and is a spark for conversation with real people rather than quietly drudging through search engines....that's my reason for posting something i'm sure is an out dated question, but my curiosity beg that i ask it again.

[Daniel]

Stevo- You will want to learn how to quote another poster. This will help you keep your own from being confusing, that is, who is saying what when. You can learn how to do that here:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325

So you explored the idea of a gay lifestyle?

You may have heard that gay persons don't exactly have a lifestyle. We have lives. This word 'lifestyle' is most often used by those who endeavor to make a distinction between their seemingly holy lives and those of others which is deemed sinful. In that sense, the word is used pregoratively. While you may not have intended this distinction, you nevertheless invoked it.

So you flirted with being openly gay and are now married? To be frank: are you having second thoughts?

I'm married to a man (Oh Canada!), and I don't have any second thoughts.

[Alecto]

I've mostly stayed out of this thread for the simple reason that I don't identify as Christian, and as such I don't have much to contribute to what you propose. One thing I will say, though, is that if you're looking for someone to tell you that you're perspective is "incorrect", or to tell you what the "correct" perspective is, I think that's kind of not the point. If you'd truly like to understand (and respect) a different perspective, whether or not you end up fully believing it yourself, that sounds a little more on target.

::recedes back to shadowy corner::

[stev0]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Stevo- You will want to learn how to quote another poster. This will help you keep your own from being confusing, that is, who is saying what when. You can learn how to do that here:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325

So you explored the idea of a gay lifestyle?

You may have heard that gay persons don't exactly have a lifestyle. We have lives. This word 'lifestyle' is most often used by those who endeavor to make a distinction between their seemingly holy lives and those of others which is deemed sinful. In that sense, the word is used pregoratively. While you may not have intended this distinction, you nevertheless invoked it.

So you flirted with being openly gay and are now married? To be frank: are you having second thoughts?

I'm married to a man (Oh Canada!), and I don't have any second thoughts.

sorry, I didn't realize that it was an incorrect way to address being homosexual or ingaging in homosexual acts I'll try to be a little more choosy with my words. I was just making the distinction that if you do decide you are homosexual and that is okay for your life it will influence many aspects of your life. Which is why i used the term lifestyle.

Well, I don't believe I am "holier than thou" for any reason.

and to clarify I wasn't flirting with being "openly gay" I was struggling with whether or not that was an option for me. (sorry if this too is unclear it's the best way i can describe it)

No, I'm not having second thoughts in my marriage - in relation to sexual identity. I'm very content with my wife.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by stev0

sorry, I didn't realize that it was an incorrect way to address being homosexual or ingaging in homosexual acts I'll try to be a little more choosy with my words. I was just making the distinction that if you do decide you are homosexual and that is okay for your life it will influence many aspects of your life. Which is why i used the term lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Stev0

Decide you are homosexual?

If would say that for the vast majority of gay folks that I know, including myself, the self-knowledge of our sexuality, in this case same-sex sexuality, came, not as a 'decision', but rather, as an awareness, a discovery, an unfolding of inner truth, a recognition of an essential part of who we are as living beings.

It's not an arbitrary matter, like figuring out which brand of yogurt to take off the shelf. Nor is it a matter of picking out the most colorful attire when can find just to get attention, as if the attention one got was favorable, especially from religious conservatives who deem being gay a sin worth than death.

The choice is this: one either accepts one's same-sex attraction or not.

One either accepts to be happy as God made one or not.

One lives in truth and wholeness or not.

Of course, if one can't bring oneself to even contemplate these matters or face one's feelings for whatever reason, there aren't any 'options'. One then simply decides to push the whole matter away and go with the flow- the flow being what others want- what others think- what others believe.

I think they call that herd mentality.

Moo.....

Originally Posted by Stev0

Affect many aspects of your life

Well....I certainly hope so. Accepting I was gay has led me to have 15 really wonderful years with the man I call my husband.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by stev0

sorry, I didn't realize that it was an incorrect way to address being homosexual or ingaging in homosexual acts I'll try to be a little more choosy with my words. I was just making the distinction that if you do decide you are homosexual and that is okay for your life it will influence many aspects of your life. Which is why i used the term lifestyle.

I like to cook. I like to go to Art exhibits. I like to sit in the sun and read books that are collections of humorous short stories. I like to sing and dance, and go antiquing and joke around with my dad, and listen to my kids make music, and watch movies from netflix, and the list goes on and on. This is my LIFESTYLE. Some of these things are influenced by my orientation, and many are not.

I never decided that I am a homosexual. It just is as it is. However, I did try to decide that I was straight. It was a disaster. Trying to live life as a straight man did damage to me, a woman, and left some scars on my 3 kids, although, they are doing very well.

Well, I don't believe I am "holier than thou" for any reason.

hmm. glad to hear that. So what's your motivation for visiting us here? I'm a gay christian. or maybe I'm a christian who happens to be gay. God certainly doesn't seem to have a problem with me. Do you?

and to clarify I wasn't flirting with being "openly gay" I was struggling with whether or not that was an option for me. (sorry if this too is unclear it's the best way i can describe it)

It's very clear to those of us who have wrestled with this issue that being gay or straight is not an option. Is there some reason you felt that you had to make some sort of decision? Maybe your attraction is to men, but you feel the need to conform to society, or family pressures, or religious pressures and therefor you "chose" to be straight. If that's the case, I'm really worried about you. I did the same thing. It nearly killed me.
Maybe your attraction is to women, and you really thought that you had to make a choice. For most straight people, there is never a need to even think about their orientation. It's accepted and even celebrated.

there are variations of orientation, and a few here claim "bisexual" as their gift. Maybe that is where you lie along the orientation curve.

No, I'm not having second thoughts in my marriage - in relation to sexual identity. I'm very content with my wife.

wow. that's a ringing endorsement of marriage! I hope that when I marry my bf next summer that I'll be more than content.

[u-dog]

Stev0 said:

So the full meaning of the word psuchikos is physically natural; and it's not that Paul said they were psychologically unnatural but specifically stated that it was physiologically unnatural.

Lastly, it means that its just basically not natural for our bodies to work like that and we all know how it fits together "naturally."(psuchikos)

What do you mean by "work like that"? are you talking about the complementarity of male and female plumbing and the lack of complimentarity of m/m or f/f sexual congress? Or are you talking about the physical/sexual/emotional attraction of one male person to another male person (and one female person to another female person)

What, exactly to you think that "natural" means? Does "unnatural" mean "never seen in nature"? or does it mean "counter to God's plan"?

As Steven points out below, If Paul means that same sex attraction and sexual activity is "not seen in nature" then he is simply mistaken. same sex attraction (and in more than a few cases, even same sex life partners) are attested in over 1500 higher order species (mostly but not exclusively birds and mammals). it is especially common among those species most closely related to humans (primates in general and "great apes" in particular).

You seem to be saying that you think Wink has gone wrong by translating the greek word "Psuchikos" to mean "psychologically unnatural" and that it ought to be translated "physiologically unnatural" instead. Is that even a meaningful distinction? Is the body REALLY neatly divided between the "physiological" and the "psychological"? I have struggled with depression all of my adult life and I can tell you... there is no clear boundary between the two. If the physiology of my hormones and neurochemicals is off... so is my psychological outlook. the two are really one.

from what I understand, Daniel and his husband are emotionally, spiritually, and psychologically "complimentary" with each other and their bodies echo and amplify that complimentarity very nicely. In what sense do they "not work" together?


Steven said:

What do you make of Paul's other uses of the same word (phusikos--or however you spelled it). Later in Romans Paul says that God has grafted the Gentile Christians into the Jewish people "contrary to nature," just like someone would graft a wild olive tree onto a domestic olive tree "contrary to nature."

Paul also describes short hair on women and long hair on men as "contrary to nature." Seems to me that if you let it, hair just naturally grows.

Below you suggest that what Steven says above doesn't "take away" from you original point. but I think it does. Clearly, short hair is not "natural" to men and long hair is not "natural" to women. The Nazarites (like John the Baptist and Samson) did not cut their hair and it grew long. they were men and Samson, at least, was a hetero-sexual (and look where it got him!) If "Psuchikos" means "physiologically natural" then why would Paul use it to describe what is clearly a cultural norm (hairstyles)? And if doing something "physiologically unnatural" is such a terrible thing... why would Paul use it as a metaphor for how God is building the Church?


Stev0 said:

To: Steve

"I think your analysis of the word Paul uses is a little too simplistic."

You may very well be right. thank-you for your thoughtful response.
But I still think the words used in that passage are very specific and your response to it does not take away from my first post's point... or I'm mistaken and haven't understood you correctly.

Finally, is it possible for Paul to be mistaken about a fact of "nature" without invalidating the truth of scripture? Even if Paul thinks that ALL homosexual behavior is unnatural and therefore immoral and is MISTAKEN about that... does it invalidate the argument that he is making to the Roman Christians in Chapters one and two of his letter?

[RedneckDyke]

My lifestyle is this: I pet mules' noses, scratch hogs' back with a stick, hug sheep (not THAT way, I know I'm a redneck...but ). I love crosswords and hate sudoko. I read lots of books about history. I love food way too much. I love my neighbors and they love me and my partner.

I too didn't want to be gay because I thought I was bad. I didn't decide to go gay, I decided to accept myself. My old Korean War vet neighbor talked about how they punished left-handed kids in school and made them write right-handed. SChools don't do that anymore. there's nothing wrong with being a leftie, it's the way people come out ( hee hee a pun )
Just the same with my orientation. Why fight it?
As for being a Christian.... I am much more christian now in a lifetime monogomous marriage to a woman than when I was getting high and having one-night stands with dudes because I was trying not be gay.