A Small Response To "Homosexuality and the Bible by Walter Wink"

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by u-dog

from what I understand, Daniel and his husband are emotionally, spiritually, and psychologically "complimentary" with each other and their bodies echo and amplify that complimentarity very nicely. In what sense do they "not work" together?

I'll have to get back to you on this one.....

Research may be required.....

[scott snedeker]

Words have power "Be impeccable with your word" is the first of the Four Agreements by Don Rene' Ruiz

Impeccable means choosing your words to convey a meaning, a spirit, an emotion, a vision that casts love, affirmation, truth from you so as to activate those things in the person to whom you are speaking. This is a challenging agreement to make. Below is an example of how I try to be impeccable with my word.

Stev0, you are not alone. The part of your nature that is attracted to men is as beautiful as the rest of your being. Here is a sanctuary to express it. By doing so, you need not fear that it will create a catastrophe. There is no need for any part of your belief paradigm to struggle with this beautiful delicate part of your nature. Capacity to love in varied ways is no threat.

Can you feel the genuine love, affirmation and truth in the words?

Phrases like "commit homosexual acts" carry heavy negative judgemental criminalizing intonation and are laced with spiritual poison. The challenge to describe lovemaking between two people in a way that conveys affirmation, joy and light may take some creativity. This is a wonderful exercise! How do I make my words convey these things that I want activated in the one receiving them? First you must genuinely feel what you are trying to communicate.

Perhaps "passionate male bonding" might be an improvement (kind gets me hot actually sounds a little kinky). Or passionate masculine lovemaking (kinda tweaks curiosity) or masculine love expression. Hmmmmm Ok Girls how about "passionate feminine bonding" ? Passionate femine lovemaking? or female love expression? I feel like a Satyr among nymphs in the mountain forest of Arcadia!

Ok! sorry folks! I went of the deep end into Faerie lore once again!

Any way, My point is to explore breaking down barriers to love within and then putting that in your words. Doing this rather than allowing negative feelings to come through (either by using terms that perpetuate status quo of our present homophobic society or by wordcraft) will make the world a kinder place for everyone.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

I feel like a Satyr among nymphs in the mountain forest of Arcadia!

Ok! sorry folks! I went of the deep end into Faerie lore once again!

Any way, My point is to explore breaking down barriers to love within and then putting that in your words. Doing this rather than allowing negative feelings to come through (either by using terms that perpetuate status quo of our present homophobic society or by wordcraft) will make the world a kinder place for everyone.

Oh Scotty!
You are adorable.

And you bear a universal message - one too rarely heard.

Words have immeasurable power. Human society tends to wayyyyyy underestimate the impact of words.

[tdogg]

Stevo

You are hearing from real live people, some who were once in the same shoes as you - is it ok to be gay?? We struggle with this our whole lives until we finally accept ourselves and learn to love ourselves.

I was told my entire life that 'homosexuals go straight to hell'. By family, friends and pastors. It was shoved down my throat and I felt an incredible sense to conform - conform to that which was expected of me. I've had relationship with men, one especially with my ex-husband for 17 years. While sometimes the sex was good (not too often but sometimes), I never connected emotionally or spiritually, and the physical connections were not that strong and more often than not almost 'painful.' But I did 'my duty' to conform.

Finally I reached a place in my life where I could no longer conform. I exlored my true self. I accepted and learned to love my true self. I got past all the crap I was told by others who thought they knew better than my true self or my God. Guess what Stevo??? I found a wonderful person inside myself, true and honest, loving and fun. I discovered that God loves me just as I am, no excuses, no other person in charge of dictating what God is to me.

Best of all? I found a wonderful, incredible miracle of a partner who thinks of me the same way. I connect mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually, and if you want more than 'content' that's what it takes. I will never settle for 'content' as the best option again. I have it all now, I won't ever accept less. Yes, we are two women, but we fit together in all ways perfectly, like puzzle pieces made for each other. And, I have never felt anything as natural as when I am with my love.

Finally finding and accepting myself is all the proof I need to know this is natural, fulfilling, God's plan for me, and nothing less than amazing every single second. I would not change a thing!!

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh Scotty!
You are adorable.

Yes I Know!

And so are you my little Syrinx!

[paul]

Originally Posted by stev0

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this before but I heard a sermon this summer that made me think about homosexuality in regards to Christianity.

As Walter Wink stated "Paul's unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior in Rom. 1:26-27 must be the centerpiece of any discussion."
While looking into Greek definition of the word natural in this context I see something different about this passage than Walter does.

He concluded that the word natural was talking about what we are naturally inclined to do.(psychologically) & and assumed that Paul did not understand what was normal.

Paul wrote that homosexuality is not "normal." If you look up the specific Greek word used for normal here, you would find psuchikos. This Greek word means natural, but what I found interesting here is the specificness of this Greek word. Psuchikos' root word is phusis, which means physical. So the full meaning of the word psuchikos is physically natural; and it's not that Paul said they were psychologically unnatural but specifically stated that it was physiologically unnatural.

Lastly, it means that its just basically not natural for our bodies to work like that and we all know how it fits together "naturally."(psuchikos)

Well I know my words will offend some, but I'm not trying to be arrogant in my words. I pray that if I'm wrong in my words someone will be able to convince me otherwise. I post this out of my love for fellow believers. I pray you'll consider my words.

Gimme some feedback I wanna know how everyone here feels about this.
thanx for letting me voice my heart on this one.

Hiya Stev0,
And welcome

Since you identify as a "fundamentalist" that means you believe in the "inerrancy" of the bible? I really like u-dogs answers to you because they address this part of fundamentalism.

If you are gay (I don't know), you will know sooner or later that it is not a choice. At that point you will have to come to terms with that reality and the faith you espouse. I do wonder, I certainly don't know, why you are here? I wonder if, in part, it is because you are not quite certain of your conclusions.
You say:
" So, if my perspective on these things is wrong in relation to the Christian God and His revealed Word...I'd like to be corrected"

I think we can and should dig into the original language. Beyond that, if we believe the bible to be God's word (a fundamental tenet), by what method do Christians discern what God is saying? I see you looking at a portion of scripture and coming up with one interpretation, and I see Steven and U-dog coming up with another. Why is that? It is clear, even in Paul's time, that Christians disagreed. If the bible is the "word of God" and the "natural man" (there's that word again) cannot know it because it is "spiritually discerned," do you think it's possible to actually know from God what God means? Using a method, beyond reason, that all Christians can agree on and therefore can all see the same thing?

[tymejumper]

So you flirted with being openly gay and are now married? To be frank: are you having second thoughts?

I'm married to a man (Oh Canada!), and I don't have any second thoughts.[/QUOTE]




I flirted with being openly "straight", married to a TG man! Now I am married to a woman and openly lesbian. I am not having second thoughts either! LOL LOL

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

I perceive that some here may be speculating about SteveO's sexual orientation. My speculation is that SteveO may be bisexual--at least to the extent that he has reported to us that he has had "inclinations" towards homosexuality in the past.

What I want to caution SteveO and others of similar experience and persuasion is that they not interpret their own apparent ability to "choose" heterosexuality over other "inclinations" that they have or have had as justifying a conclusion that such a "choice" exists for everyone. Some of us have no heterosexual inclinations at all.

SteveO may have "chosen" a spouse of the other sex over possible same sex partners. A bisexual could do that, and might want to, especially if their heterosexual inclinations were stronger. Many of us here don't have that kind of choice having very little or no heterosexual "inclinations."

Still, I challenge the term "choice." Most of us do not experience our love for our partners/spouses as a "choice" so much as a blessing. Something that "just happened." Hopefully that is true also of SteveO--that his marriage is a blessing and not something chosen because of cultural pressures or prejudices. I would not wish that on anyone.

I feel no obligation to convince SteveO of anything, and I hope he doesn't feel obligated to convince us of anything either. I only hope for mutual respect and understanding.

Steven Webster

[stev0]

Originally Posted by u-dog

What do you mean by "work like that"? are you talking about the complementarity of male and female plumbing and the lack of complimentarity of m/m or f/f sexual congress? Or are you talking about the physical/sexual/emotional attraction of one male person to another male person (and one female person to another female person)

Well yes I was talking about the lack of proper "plumbing"

Originally Posted by u-dog

As Steven points out below, If Paul means that same sex attraction and sexual activity is "not seen in nature" then he is simply mistaken. same sex attraction (and in more than a few cases, even same sex life partners) are attested in over 1500 higher order species (mostly but not exclusively birds and mammals). it is especially common among those species most closely related to humans (primates in general and "great apes" in particular).

Well, this will sound totally offensive, but here goes. I've understood that we live in a "fallen world" and I agree this same-sex sexual activity is seen in nature in animals and in humans; but we are also a sinful people and by natural we are attracted to what is unnatural what is sinful. We most find it natural to lash out in anger when someone does us wrong or lie to get out of trouble. By our sinful nature we tend towards usurping God and what He deems as holy and righteous. This is not to say that I am righteous and everyone else is dirt. This is to say that everyone (myself included) is inclined to naturally turn from what God would have us do. I sense this is true throughout my life. Like Paul Christians find themselves battling themselves


Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;


Romans chapter 7 14-19
"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want."

[stev0]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Friends,

I perceive that some here may be speculating about SteveO's sexual orientation. My speculation is that SteveO may be bisexual--at least to the extent that he has reported to us that he has had "inclinations" towards homosexuality in the past.

What I want to caution SteveO and others of similar experience and persuasion is that they not interpret their own apparent ability to "choose" heterosexuality over other "inclinations" that they have or have had as justifying a conclusion that such a "choice" exists for everyone. Some of us have no heterosexual inclinations at all.

SteveO may have "chosen" a spouse of the other sex over possible same sex partners. A bisexual could do that, and might want to, especially if their heterosexual inclinations were stronger. Many of us here don't have that kind of choice having very little or no heterosexual "inclinations."

Still, I challenge the term "choice." Most of us do not experience our love for our partners/spouses as a "choice" so much as a blessing. Something that "just happened." Hopefully that is true also of SteveO--that his marriage is a blessing and not something chosen because of cultural pressures or prejudices. I would not wish that on anyone.

I feel no obligation to convince SteveO of anything, and I hope he doesn't feel obligated to convince us of anything either. I only hope for mutual respect and understanding.

Steven Webster

Thanx Steven Webster
for your awesome replies.

No I don't think I'll convince anyone that I'm right. Just feel the need to talk it out I guess.
I suppose my reasoning for saying that we have a choice, is that several "heterosexual" people I've talked to who are completely happy with their sexual preference say they can relate when I talk about everyone has likely at some point considered homosexuality or it atleast seemed inviting to them.

[stev0]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Words have power "Be impeccable with your word" is the first of the Four Agreements by Don Rene' Ruiz

Impeccable means choosing your words to convey a meaning, a spirit, an emotion, a vision that casts love, affirmation, truth from you so as to activate those things in the person to whom you are speaking. This is a challenging agreement to make. Below is an example of how I try to be impeccable with my word.

Stev0, you are not alone. The part of your nature that is attracted to men is as beautiful as the rest of your being. Here is a sanctuary to express it. By doing so, you need not fear that it will create a catastrophe. There is no need for any part of your belief paradigm to struggle with this beautiful delicate part of your nature. Capacity to love in varied ways is no threat.

Can you feel the genuine love, affirmation and truth in the words?

Phrases like "commit homosexual acts" carry heavy negative judgemental criminalizing intonation and are laced with spiritual poison. The challenge to describe lovemaking between two people in a way that conveys affirmation, joy and light may take some creativity. This is a wonderful exercise! How do I make my words convey these things that I want activated in the one receiving them? First you must genuinely feel what you are trying to communicate.

Perhaps "passionate male bonding" might be an improvement (kind gets me hot actually sounds a little kinky). Or passionate masculine lovemaking (kinda tweaks curiosity) or masculine love expression. Hmmmmm Ok Girls how about "passionate feminine bonding" ? Passionate femine lovemaking? or female love expression? I feel like a Satyr among nymphs in the mountain forest of Arcadia!

Ok! sorry folks! I went of the deep end into Faerie lore once again!

Any way, My point is to explore breaking down barriers to love within and then putting that in your words. Doing this rather than allowing negative feelings to come through (either by using terms that perpetuate status quo of our present homophobic society or by wordcraft) will make the world a kinder place for everyone.

I'd like to talk about it but i don't think i should have to be confined to making everyone think i'm okay with it by using comfortable language... I can be cordial ...i think and still convey my opinion without doing that

Just because I have a firm stand on a position that may offend some doesn't mean i should change it because it is offensive. Honestly, the only reason I would come to anyone about this subject and to talk about it without ranting and raving that I'm right and cursing everyone who didn't agree is because I would seek to show them love because God has given me that grace.
I don't claim that I'm perfectly loving or even able to show it well here on this forum, i'm sure i've stepped my bounds somewhere or been harsh with my words in one my posts and for that I apologize because in that I don't represent Christ in the light He should be.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by stev0

Well yes I was talking about the lack of proper "plumbing"

Well, this will sound totally offensive, but here goes. I've understood that we live in a "fallen world" and I agree this same-sex sexual activity is seen in nature in animals and in humans; but we are also a sinful people and by natural we are attracted to what is unnatural what is sinful. We most find it natural to lash out in anger when someone does us wrong or lie to get out of trouble. By our sinful nature we tend towards usurping God and what He deems as holy and righteous. This is not to say that I am righteous and everyone else is dirt. This is to say that everyone (myself included) is inclined to naturally turn from what God would have us do. I sense this is true throughout my life. Like Paul Christians find themselves battling themselves

But Stevo, many/most of us here are at a point where we know God loves us and has created us very special, GLBT people. We do not feel that we are fallen or sinning. That's the point many are trying to get across. I know personally that by being a lesbian, being in a relationship with a person of the same sex that I love, cherish, admire and respect, is not carnal or sinful. I know it is blessed by God. God is in our lives and we are blessed by being together. The only battle waging inside me was trying to conform to what others thought I should be or do. Not God, but other people. Once I got over that, the battle waged no more inside me.

Jesus said the truth will set us free. The truth that love triumphs law, that love triumphs evil, that love triumphs hate.

By the way, the 'plumbing' in my relationship is a completely natural perfect fit. Much more natural and perfect than other plumbing I tried to live with. No words can begin to speak the truth as someone's heart and life journey. Please continue sharing yours as we are sharing ours with you.

Blessings,

Tdogg

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by stev0

I suppose my reasoning for saying that we have a choice, is that several "heterosexual" people I've talked to who are completely happy with their sexual preference say they can relate when I talk about everyone has likely at some point considered homosexuality or it at least seemed inviting to them.

Personally speaking: I never found sex with a woman to be inviting in the least- no offense to the ladies among us. And my own discussions with my straight identified colleagues tell me that what people talk about and what they actually will do when push comes to shove are two different things.

By-the-way: I've known quite a few straight men in the course of my life who LOVE to be flirted with by gay men. Seems they have a need to bask in the attention of others, not matter their sex.

Stevo- I wonder if you're making the assumption that everyone is straight and is tempted into doing something naughty- that is- same-sex sexuality.

Sure. Anyone can perform any sexual act under the sun, but that doesn't mean you love the person you are doing it with. And for me, love and sexual desire go together. As Christopher Isherwood said:

“It seems to me that the real clue to your sex-orientation lies in your romantic feelings rather than in your sexual feelings. If you are really gay, you are able to fall in love with a man, not just enjoy having sex with him.”

I can imagine those who might be enticed by the thought of homosexuality. And that would be straight men who fantasize two women together.

[tdogg]

Christopher Isherwood is exactly correct! Loving someone is so much more than sex. Being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, or yes, even heterosexual is so much more than sex. When those who might not understand us begin to see past that, then how and who we love makes much more sense.

Until I found a person to connect with on all levels of my being, especially as that connection works both ways, I never knew what true love really was like. It's more than my words could describe. To really connect and love someone that way, a person must first have learned to love themselves just as they are. IMO anyway.

[NathanATX]

You agreed to be in compliance with the Soulforce rules when you registered for the Forums.

I believe you have been possibly violating the rule about posting inappropriate conduct.

Please reread the rules and make sure all of your posts are in compliance in the future.

Here is the text of the rule, and here is a link to the rules.

Anti-Gay comments
We welcome people who are on the journey to understanding and accepting gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender (GLBT) people. However obvious anti-gay comments will not be allowed in the public forums. Such comments are not merely opinions, but rather a way to demean and oppress GLBT people. Any posts deemed by the Soulforce staff or moderator team to be anti-gay will be responded to with a warning and, in most instances, the removal of the offending post. Members who continue to post anti-gay comments will lose their right to post messages on any of the Soulforce Public Forums and also their right to send private messages to other members.

Materials promoting "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy"
Some homosexual persons claim to have experienced a change in their sexual orientation. Their stories are their stories and we should not try to change them if they are sincerely happy. With that said, however, the vast majority of these brothers and sisters entered "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" under the belief of a homosexual orientation being morally inferior and a heterosexual orientation being morally superior. Such a belief is a falsehood that is used by many to deny GLBT people equality in society and full membership in our churches. Thus the promotion of "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" is not permitted on the forums and will be handled as anti-gay comments.

If the Moderator team feels you are consistently posting with disregard for our community's rules, your posting privileges will be removed.

Thanks for your help,
Nate

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by stev0

I'd like to talk about it but i don't think i should have to be confined to making everyone think i'm okay with it by using comfortable language... I can be cordial ...i think and still convey my opinion without doing that

Just because I have a firm stand on a position that may offend some doesn't mean i should change it because it is offensive. Honestly, the only reason I would come to anyone about this subject and to talk about it without ranting and raving that I'm right and cursing everyone who didn't agree is because I would seek to show them love because God has given me that grace.
I don't claim that I'm perfectly loving or even able to show it well here on this forum, i'm sure i've stepped my bounds somewhere or been harsh with my words in one my posts and for that I apologize because in that I don't represent Christ in the light He should be.

I would be privileged indeed if something I can say will help you feel love for the part of yourself that your interpretation of biblical verse tells you is not lovable. All of you is lovable. Keep working to let it in. You will succeed one day!

[paul]

Originally Posted by paul

Hiya Stev0,
And welcome

Since you identify as a "fundamentalist" that means you believe in the "inerrancy" of the bible? I really like u-dogs answers to you because they address this part of fundamentalism.

If you are gay (I don't know), you will know sooner or later that it is not a choice. At that point you will have to come to terms with that reality and the faith you espouse. I do wonder, I certainly don't know, why you are here? I wonder if, in part, it is because you are not quite certain of your conclusions.
You say:
" So, if my perspective on these things is wrong in relation to the Christian God and His revealed Word...I'd like to be corrected"


I think we can and should dig into the original language. Beyond that, if we believe the bible to be God's word (a fundamental tenet), by what method do Christians discern what God is saying? I see you looking at a portion of scripture and coming up with one interpretation, and I see Steven and U-dog coming up with another. Why is that? It is clear, even in Paul's time, that Christians disagreed. If the bible is the "word of God" and the "natural man" (there's that word again) cannot know it because it is "spiritually discerned," do you think it's possible to actually know from God what God means? Using a method, beyond reason, that all Christians can agree on and therefore can all see the same thing?

Okay, Here's a simple example of my point. What am I saying in the following sentence: The boy is blue.

Off the cuff, I can think of three interpretations:
1. The boy is sad or depressed.
2. The boy needs oxygen.
3. The boy is an art object.

Again I ask, what method do you use, that anyone could use, to truly know what "God" is saying? How do you assure your self that you have no bias that effects that interpretation? If you don't have that confidence, where does that really leave you?

[u-dog]

Stev0 said:

Well, this will sound totally offensive, but here goes. I've understood that we live in a "fallen world" and I agree this same-sex sexual activity is seen in nature in animals and in humans; but we are also a sinful people and by natural we are attracted to what is unnatural what is sinful. We most find it natural to lash out in anger when someone does us wrong or lie to get out of trouble. By our sinful nature we tend towards usurping God and what He deems as holy and righteous. This is not to say that I am righteous and everyone else is dirt. This is to say that everyone (myself included) is inclined to naturally turn from what God would have us do. I sense this is true throughout my life. Like Paul Christians find themselves battling themselves

Stev0,

The doctrine of "the Fall" is Paul's solution to the problem, "If God is good and the creation is good why do we suck so bad" I don't by any means reject Paul's formulation but it is problematic. How do we KNOW which of our behaviors are part of our "created nature" (what God intended for us to be/do) and which are part of our "fallen nature" (those things in ourselves and in nature which have been distorted by our idolatrous disobedience)?

Your example above (which I have bolded) is a good case in point. Is our tendency to respond in anger a result of our Fallen nature? or is it part of what biologists call "the fight or flight" response? When any creature in nature is threatened it must decide "shall I flee or shall I fight?" The same mother creature will decide differently when young are present than when they are not. Even a normally timid creature will fight when injured if it is unable to escape or percieves that it is unable to flee. When I am surprised by an attack (even a verbal or emotional one) I come out swinging hoping to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible to the one who "injured" me. Is this because I am sinful by fallen nature? or because God created my ancestors this way in order that they might survive in a dangerous world? What is "lying" other than an attempt to flee emotionally from a truth that I percieve as a threat?

I look around the creation and I see that MOST creatures that are sexually dichotomous are attracted to the opposite sex, but that SOME in MANY species are NOT. Is this because original sin has warped God's intention for the world? Or do these behaviors serve some purpose of God's that we have yet to fully understand? how do we tell the difference. In dolphins, for instance, adolecent male homosexuality seems to create and cement emotional bonds between groups of males who form defensive pods that live and fight and 'fornicate' together for life. these pods also work together to defend females and young. created order? or fallen nature? Among mice, male homosexuality is part of a complex mechanism for controlling population in the warren. When overcrowding occurs it triggers a hormonal change in females who begin to give birth to higher percentages of "gay" male pups. When over-crowding eases, the percentage returns to normal (near zero) Does homosexuality in humans serve a biological purpose? I dunno. It seems to be universal across cultures and it seems to have physical/physiological roots (rather than merely psychological/emotional ones) Identical twins are BOTH gay more often than would be expected statistically even when they are raised apart by different families (but NOT as often as you would expect if it were a strictly genetic phenomenon).


My point here is simply this: It is NOT always easy to know WHAT is a result of my (or your) sinful fallen nature and what is simply a part of what God made (which is therefore "Good" along with everything else that God does.)


To complicate matters further, the fact that a thing is "natural" and therefore "good" doesn't mean that I ought to continue to act on it. Again, your example is a good case in point. My tendency to "lash out" iss probably natural and good but I am more faithful to God when I redirect into more constructive behaviors. The bible contains at least TWO DIFFERENT modifications to this behavior. "Eye for an Eye" was a VERY enlightened principal that served to limit endlessly escalating clan vendettas (you kill my brother, I kill all your siblings, you kill everyone in my family, I kill everyone in your family and pee on their bodies ... ad infinitum). Jesus introduced an even MORE RADICAL modification to "fight or flight". He commended "turn the other cheek" to us. If I absorb the initial blow and return kindness the opportunity for true reconciliation is created. In this case, doing the "naturally good" thing... creates evil in the form of escalating emnity. Jesus recommends that we substitute a different behavior. In an age of nuclear weapons we can see the sense in this eh?

Now, lets assume that I am homosexual by nature and that, for reasons of His own, God created male human homosexuality to serve a purpose. Does this AUTOMATICALLY mean that I should behave homosexually? I don't think so. Perhaps, homosexuality served a godly purpose in the past (like fight or flight did) but no longer does. Perhaps it now creates evil side effects (like nuclear annihilation in the other example) and should be repressed. what would those be? What purpose does it serve to resist our God-created homosexual nature? To make squeemish hetero-sexuals more comfortable? Frankly, thats not a compelling enough reason.

I'll stop now --- almost nobody is still reading this anyway. My point is: The doctrine of the Fall is not helpful in untying this moral knot because we cannot KNOW what aspects of our nature are "created" and which are "fallen". So... try another tack.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

Okay, Here's a simple example of my point. What am I saying in the following sentence: The boy is blue.

Off the cuff, I can think of three interpretations:
1. The boy is sad or depressed.
2. The boy needs oxygen.
3. The boy is an art object.

Again I ask, what method do you use, that anyone could use, to truly know what "God" is saying? How do you assure your self that you have no bias that effects that interpretation? If you don't have that confidence, where does that really leave you?

and further, how do you know that there are ONLY three answers?

4. the boy is a member of an internationally famous mime troupe

(this is a serious response to Paul's post. What do you do with the possibility that you have failed to even CONSIDER what God would truly have you know?)

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by stev0

Thanx Steven Webster
for your awesome replies.

No I don't think I'll convince anyone that I'm write. Just feel the need to talk it out I guess.
I suppose my reasoning for saying that we have a choice, is that several "heterosexual" people I've talked to who are completely happy with their sexual preference say they can relate when I talk about everyone has likely at some point considered homosexuality or it atleast seemed inviting to them.

SteveO,

I think my point still stands. The fact that the heterosexuals that you know have had fleeting inclinations towards same-sex attractions does not mean that they "chose" to be heterosexuals over some EQUALLY ATTRACTIVE CHOICE. The majority of people I know feel pretty definitely that they are either predominantly heterosexual or homosexual.

Also PLEASE keep in mind that most of us aren't just attracted to just anyone of a particular sex (or both sexes)---we discover ourselves to be especially attracted to ONE PARTICULAR PERSON. That's love!

The "plumbing" argument that has been mentioned here is particularly insulting. Human beings and human love is not a matter of plumbing fixtures. Some of opponents try to elevate this stupid argument by giving it the high-falutin' term "complementarity." My husband and I have "complemented" one another in myriad ways for over a quarter century--and sex is a very small part of it. (Sorry, you young romantics out there--it ain't all sex all the time! As you mature with your spouses over time you'll know what I mean.)

SteveO, I don't think it's your intention to be insulting. I'm just pointing out how such things come across.

Another argument you bring up is the "fallenness of nature." Some folks would like to believe that their heterosexuality belongs to the "perfect world" that God created. Eve ate the apple and BAM--the whole world was corrupted. Therefore homosexuality belongs to the fallen world while heterosexuality belongs to perfection. HOW CONVENIENT! Sorry, I think if you apply some intellectual honesty to this question, you need to admit that Adam, Eve, the Snake and some perfect, all-heterosexual world that existed in the past is nothing but a myth. Homosexuality has existed since BEFORE human beings existed--it's existed at least as long as birds and mammals have existed, and maybe longer. I think there are important spiritual meanings expressed in the first chapters of Genesis. I read and ponder these chapters in my devotions and benefit spiritually from them---but I don't buy the interpretation that this myth establishes the "fact" that heterosexuality is superior to homosexuality in any way.

"Fundamentalist" arguments just aren't going to carry much weight with me.

Steven Webster