A Small Response To "Homosexuality and the Bible by Walter Wink"

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by stev0

Thanx Steven Webster
for your awesome replies.

No I don't think I'll convince anyone that I'm write. Just feel the need to talk it out I guess.
I suppose my reasoning for saying that we have a choice, is that several "heterosexual" people I've talked to who are completely happy with their sexual preference say they can relate when I talk about everyone has likely at some point considered homosexuality or it atleast seemed inviting to them.

REALITY CHECK !!!
Your "heterosexual" friends are either:
1. Liars. or
2. NOT HETEROSEXUALS (bi-sexuals perhaps?)

There are no other options. Those of us who are HOMOSEXUALS are here to tell you:

1. Some of us can "perform" hetero-sexually and for some of us that can even be a pleasant thing. but for many (if not most) of us it is self-destructive. we know this because we have lived it.

2. Almost all of us have spent months or years or decades (as in my case) trying to "choose" hetero-sexuality.

3. All of us have suffered emotional, pyschological, and spiritual injury in this attempt. Some of us have died from it (among the dead... a lot of beautiful children and young people)

4. Most of us have been alienated from God by this attempt and most of us have experienced reconciliation to God when we STOPPED the attempt.

5. Many of us have injured innocent heterosexuals (in many cases children -- in all cases, people we love!) in this attempt.

6. It is arrogant and criminal for your bi-sexual friends to pass off their bisexual experience as universal. Sorry if this seems harsh... but its true.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by tdogg

But Stevo, many/most of us here are at a point where we know God loves us and has created us very special, GLBT people. We do not feel that we are fallen or sinning. That's the point many are trying to get across. I know personally that by being a lesbian, being in a relationship with a person of the same sex that I love, cherish, admire and respect, is not carnal or sinful. I know it is blessed by God. God is in our lives and we are blessed by being together. The only battle waging inside me was trying to conform to what others thought I should be or do. Not God, but other people. Once I got over that, the battle waged no more inside me.

Jesus said the truth will set us free. The truth that love triumphs law, that love triumphs evil, that love triumphs hate.

By the way, the 'plumbing' in my relationship is a completely natural perfect fit. Much more natural and perfect than other plumbing I tried to live with. No words can begin to speak the truth as someone's heart and life journey. Please continue sharing yours as we are sharing ours with you.

Blessings,

Tdogg

Tdogg,

If you were a guy... I would SO HAVE A CRUSH ON YOU!! You are not only a marvelous human being... you are a subtle and capable theologian. Bless you

[Pablo Rafael]

Just a side thought on the topic of the fall into sin.

I believe that God is love. His "image" is love. All mankind was created in His image. Though we have all been tainted with the stain of sin, we are still in the image of God. When we show that love to others, we are showing forth a little of the image of God. Those of us who have been redeemed from sin by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, show forth that image of love as the Holy Spirit works in our lives.

I never did like the phrase in "Amazing Grace" that said. "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me." We are not wretches but beloved children, who have gone astray, yes, but who bear the family resemblance of God. I like the Catholic revision of that phrase in "Amazing Grace" that says, "...saved and set me free".

I aslo believe that when we use love and grace as our keys to Biblcal interpretation, the condemming of loving, faithful homosexual relationships based on Paul's writings vanish. Paul writes against those things that prevent us from establishing relationships of love with God and with people around us. Loving homosexual partnerships are a part of the love of God, not a rejection of God's love.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

Just a side thought on the topic of the fall into sin.

I believe that God is love. His "image" is love. All mankind was created in His image. Though we have all been tainted with the stain of sin, we are still in the image of God. When we show that love to others, we are showing forth a little of the image of God. Those of us who have been redeemed from sin by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, show forth that image of love as the Holy Spirit works in our lives.

I never did like the phrase in "Amazing Grace" that said. "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me." We are not wretches but beloved children, who have gone astray, yes, but who bear the family resemblance of God. I like the Catholic revision of that phrase in "Amazing Grace" that says, "...saved and set me free".

I aslo believe that when we use love and grace as our keys to Biblcal interpretation, the condemming of loving, faithful homosexual relationships based on Paul's writings vanish. Paul writes against those things that prevent us from establishing relationships of love with God and with people around us. Loving homosexual partnerships are a part of the love of God, not a rejection of God's love.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Pablo,

I beleive that the foul stinking heresy that you are espousing here is called "Pelagianism" It is the crazy notion that the divine image is merely "obscured" by the Fall. The Pelagian Biships were all ruthlessly purged in the 3rd or 4th century by the Augustinian Bishops who maintained (as your Catholic Church does to this day) that the divine image was actually CORRUPTED by the Fall.

don't get me wrong, I'm a card-carrying Pelagian myself. which is why Paul doesn't think I am a "real" Calvinist.

But Stev0 does NOT go to our church. He is an Augustinian to the core (and a Calvinist if I'm not mistaken) Is that true Stev0?

Personally, I think the time is RIPE for a Pelagian revolution in the Church! Are you with me?

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by stev0

Well yes I was talking about the lack of proper "plumbing"

proper plumbing??? I'm not sure what "improper plumbing" would be in human beings. It's not about the plumbing, as so many have already stated. It's about the attraction and the love. Without being crass, I can tell you that after having been in a straight marriage and producing 3 children, that most of the sex acts are pretty much the same, and when the lights are out....well, some experiences could be performed by a man or a woman and one couldn't really tell the difference.

Well, this will sound totally offensive, but here goes.

you're right, it is offensive

I've understood that we live in a "fallen world" and I agree this same-sex sexual activity is seen in nature in animals and in humans; but we are also a sinful people and by natural we are attracted to what is unnatural what is sinful.

so it's natural to be attracted to the unnatural, which would then be natural??
[quote]We most find it natural to lash out in anger when someone does us wrong or lie to get out of trouble. By our sinful nature we tend towards usurping God and what He deems as holy and righteous. This is not to say that I am righteous and everyone else is dirt. This is to say that everyone (myself included) is inclined to naturally turn from what God would have us do. I sense this is true throughout my life. Like Paul Christians find themselves battling themselves
[quote]

Originally Posted by stev0

No I don't think I'll convince anyone that I'm write. Just feel the need to talk it out I guess.
I suppose my reasoning for saying that we have a choice, is that several "heterosexual" people I've talked to who are completely happy with their sexual preference say they can relate when I talk about everyone has likely at some point considered homosexuality or it atleast seemed inviting to them.

I'm still a bit confused as to your purpose here then. You have no plans to convince anyone that they are wrong or sinful, yet you continue make those kinds of statements. Many have already told you that their relationship to God is stronger now that they are in a homosexual relationship and no longer trying to "choose" a heterosexual orientation. Is it that you think your understanding of God is better, or more highly evolved than those who have not only wrestled with God but also their orientation, and now have reconciled the 2?

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

SteveO,

I think my point still stands. The fact that the heterosexuals that you know have had fleeting inclinations towards same-sex attractions does not mean that they "chose" to be heterosexuals over some EQUALLY ATTRACTIVE CHOICE. The majority of people I know feel pretty definitely that they are either predominantly heterosexual or homosexual.

Also PLEASE keep in mind that most of us aren't just attracted to just anyone of a particular sex (or both sexes)---we discover ourselves to be especially attracted to ONE PARTICULAR PERSON. That's love!

The "plumbing" argument that has been mentioned here is particularly insulting. Human beings and human love is not a matter of plumbing fixtures. Some of opponents try to elevate this stupid argument by giving it the high-falutin' term "complementarity." My husband and I have "complemented" one another in myriad ways for over a quarter century--and sex is a very small part of it. (Sorry, you young romantics out there--it ain't all sex all the time! As you mature with your spouses over time you'll know what I mean.)

SteveO, I don't think it's your intention to be insulting. I'm just pointing out how such things come across.

stev0, have you made the choice? can you tell us the date you chose heterosexuality? what could have persuaded you to choose homosexuality? was it simply a matter of the plumbing fixtures that won you over?

Love, as Steven points out, is much more than the sex. I've already stated that the sex acts themselves aren't all that different. The difference for me now is that I am in love with the person in my life, I am especially attracted to him, and all of those things work together for greater fulfillment than I ever experienced while trying to be "straight."

[paul]

Originally Posted by stev0

I suppose my reasoning for saying that we have a choice, is that several "heterosexual" people I've talked to who are completely happy with their sexual preference say they can relate when I talk about everyone has likely at some point considered homosexuality or it atleast seemed inviting to them.

Stev0,

I note that you placed "heterosexual" in quotes...do I detect a note of doubt regarding the veracity of their claims?

I am trying to imagine these conversations with the "several"...

Scene: Church last Sunday

straight one: I sure am happy I married a woman

straight too: yeah, me also, I'm so completely happy...hey, check out the behind on that guy, sigh.

straight one: whew, hot stuff, I think I need to go talk to my wife...see ya.

[scott snedeker]

Fears created by childhood trauma are in my experience the most severe and the most debilitating.

Each of us at one time experienced the trauma of discovering that we all are going to die. As children we have an intensive will to survive.

For many this fear is addressed with belief that after dying we continue a sentient existence in heaven. To strengthen this faith many look to church leaders. Fundamentalist verse interpetation provides strong relief of this fear to many folks

"Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear"
"And in Grace my fear is relieved"

Then many of us discover that we are "worthless deviants" according to church leaders because our attraction to the same sex during our emerging sexual awareness early in adolescence is an aboinmation. I have found this to be fundamentaly absolutely untrue.

Again our survival is threatened at an early age creating another psychological trauma and resultant self-loathing. When we see what we fear or dislike about ourselves in other people, they become the personification of our internal struggle. Our fear now has another target.

Many of us retreat to the sanctuary of celibacy, heterosexual acts despite lack of interest, and heterosexual marriage. And many because of this crippling fear created during childhood. For many of us this retreat was a necessary step to over come our fear of self love and living true to our nature. To emerge from this retreat prematurely potentially could also be traumatic. Staying too long is tragically empty.

Overcoming fear evaporates these barriers to love, joy, and living.

Fundamentalist verse interpretation is not an absolute practice. Otherwise we would be stoning urban rape victims to death. So where does one draw the line? My guess is as with all living things where our sense of self-preservation (punctuated by fear) directs us.

I have a metaphorical mental image of a gay person with fundamentalist belief sliding down an ice precipice. To keep from falling into the bottomless abyss he has driven a spike through his hand into the ice wall. Suffering from the pain yet terrified to remove it. He doesn't fall but neither can he climb out. Only when he gets a secure enough foot hold can he painfully extract the spike, and only after some healing of the wound in his hand will the pain subside. Only then can he climb out of his trap of fear

I only hope That I can reveal footholds that are within reach. Some of which I have used my self.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Tdogg,

If you were a guy... I would SO HAVE A CRUSH ON YOU!! You are not only a marvelous human being... you are a subtle and capable theologian. Bless you

I can attest to you that Tdogg is a goddess.

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Fears created by childhood trauma are in my experience the most severe and the most debilitating.

Scotty!

I have a metaphorical mental image of a gay person with fundamentalist belief sliding down an ice precipice. To keep from falling into the bottomless abyss he has driven a spike through his hand into the ice wall. Suffering from the pain yet terrified to remove it. He doesn't fall but neither can he climb out. Only when he gets a secure enough foot hold can he painfully extract the spike, and only after some healing of the wound in his hand will the pain subside. Only then can he climb out of his trap of fear

I only hope That I can reveal footholds that are within reach. Some of which I have used my self.

&$@! I am cringing at the image. Is *that* what it felt like to you?

[tymejumper]

/quote=u-dog]. we are not attracted to members of the opposite sex. Some of us can "perform" hetero-sexually and for some of us that can even be a moderately pleasant thing. but for most of us it is self-destructive. [B]we know this because we have lived it.[/quote]



It is a terrible thing to have to force yourself to have sex with your husband and feel like it is a chore or get up and vomit afterwards. After 17 years of selling myself on the hetero dream, I finally got out and met the love of my life, my true soul mate. I am more secure, happy and well adjusted now that I have accepted me being gay, I don't drink as I did before to numb the pain. Sex is the most complete and wonderful, amazing thing I have ever experienced with her and I don't feel it is a sin nor that I have fallen. I feel that I have been in fact lifted up on Gods love and found the path I was suppost to be on.

I'm sorry, I just can't find it in myself or others that who I love is a sin, God is love right?

[tdogg]

U-dog, Zerbie

Gosh....thanks...You are both amazing people as well and have my love.

Nothing much to add at this time, except..Isn't it true, when we love our partner with our minds, hearts and souls as well as our bodies, intimacy is so much more than sex. It can be a spiritual experience. Yeah, Scotty you do have a point here!

Stevo, any thoughts of what everyone has shared here with you? Can you begin to see things through our eyes yet?

[stev0]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Pablo,

I beleive that the foul stinking heresy that you are espousing here is called "Pelagianism" It is the crazy notion that the divine image is merely "obscured" by the Fall. The Pelagian Biships were all ruthlessly purged in the 3rd or 4th century by the Augustinian Bishops who maintained (as your Catholic Church does to this day) that the divine image was actually CORRUPTED by the Fall.

don't get me wrong, I'm a card-carrying Pelagian myself. which is why Paul doesn't think I am a "real" Calvinist.

But Stev0 does NOT go to our church. He is an Augustinian to the core (and a Calvinist if I'm not mistaken) Is that true Stev0?

Personally, I think the time is RIPE for a Pelagian revolution in the Church! Are you with me?

Yep...well I'm Reformed doctrinally with a charismatic dimension.
(God's Sovereign over all things/the Bible is inerrant/The "J" man is the only way/the only thing that saves you is belief in God-repentance-and turning your life over to Him/We believe the spiritual gifts are for today)...summary anyhow.

[stev0]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I'm still a bit confused as to your purpose here then. You have no plans to convince anyone that they are wrong or sinful, yet you continue make those kinds of statements. Many have already told you that their relationship to God is stronger now that they are in a homosexual relationship and no longer trying to "choose" a heterosexual orientation. Is it that you think your understanding of God is better, or more highly evolved than those who have not only wrestled with God but also their orientation, and now have reconciled the 2?

I specifically said that I don't think I'll change anyone's ideas...I don't think my poor attempt to explain myself and what I believe the Bible clearly states will be able to change the hearts of anyone in their own write. If my words are convicting it is the Holy Spirit's work not mine. Lol...and no i'm not more highly evolved lol.

[stev0]

Originally Posted by paul

Stev0,

I note that you placed "heterosexual" in quotes...do I detect a note of doubt regarding the veracity of their claims?

I am trying to imagine these conversations with the "several"...

Scene: Church last Sunday

straight one: I sure am happy I married a woman

straight too: yeah, me also, I'm so completely happy...hey, check out the behind on that guy, sigh.

straight one: whew, hot stuff, I think I need to go talk to my wife...see ya.

the quotes for ....(well if i'm wrong about me assumptions of sexual orientation being a choice then maybe their homosexuals not quite ready to burst out of their hetero shells)

Hmmm well not really...I draw my conclusions from the years of not being a Christian or even near the Christian church...When I was into Buddhism, Druidism, Taoism and similar beliefs...basically religions all about me. But I did like your speculation. It's funny. But seriously...that's how we talk at church. so quit oppressing me.

[stev0]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

"Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear"
"And in Grace my fear is relieved"

That song line is about the when Christians truly receive from Holy Spirit the conviction of their sinfulness (that God's grace's us with...He opens our eyes to it's truth) And knowing that God is infinitely just and must punish sin...We fear him because we see that we truly deserve His wrath. But in the same breathe we can say that it was Grace that relieved our fear...because that same Grace is what gave us the faith to believe in our need for Christ's propitiation(removal of wrath) for our sins....

[stev0]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

/quote=u-dog].
I'm sorry, I just can't find it in myself or others that who I love is a sin, God is love right?

no God is not just love...God is Holy (set apart)
perfectly
loving,
just,
good,
wise
so on....

[Daniel]

Freudian that is....

Originally Posted by Stev0

I specifically said that I don't think I'll change anyone's ideas...I don't think my poor attempt to explain myself and what I believe the Bible clearly states will be able to change the hearts of anyone in their own write.

I think you meant 'right' not 'write'.

Our experience is written on our hearts and expressed in our words here, to be read by those who have eyes to see. See it or not, I have the sense that you may not be around here much longer, judging from these lastest posts.

Originally Posted by Stev0

religion's all about me

That's a nice swipe. I would have thought that you might have gleaned something about compassion when you 'studied' Buddhism.

Your slip is showing. That would be a different kind however. You're showing everyone here the same tired old rhetoric and thinking.

Guess what? The compassionate thing for this once Pentacostal Buddhist is to give you a wide berth. For your good as well as his own. You'll be in my thoughts before I go to bed- when I say my prayers:

Buddhist Prayer for Peace

May all beings everywhere plagued
with sufferings of body and mind
quickly be freed from their illnesses.
May those frightened cease to be afraid,
and may those bound be free.
May the powerless find power,
and may people think of befriending
one another.
May those who find themselves in trackless,
fearful wilderness---
the children, the age, the unprotected--
be guarded by beneficial celestials,
and may they swiftly attain Buddhahood.

[stev0]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Freudian that is....



I think you meant 'right' not 'write'.

Our experience is written on our hearts and expressed in our words here, to be read by those who have eyes to see. See it or not, I have the sense that you may not be around here much longer, judging from these lastest posts.



That's a nice swipe. Guess you didn't learn squat about compassion when you 'studied' Buddhism, did ya?

Your slip is showing. That would be a different kind however.

i suppose so. I guess i'm just letting my real feeling about what buddhism was to me. and every other path i took in that realm of things....no i didn't learn much from buddhism to be honest. I was more interested in the duality of life and what i considered to be the neutrality of the universe I was enthralled by it and i chased the peace i found in meditation.

Well, I'll give you that....I am giving the same old same old, but there's truth to it. Now I don't want to come off like I hate homosexuals or that I want to make them feel bad, nor do i agree with all the people on the UT campus yelling at students on the street that their going to hell cause their gay(with t-shirts on saying the same) It's sickening. though I'm surely coming off as an ol' bible thumpin' "fundamentalist" myself.

lastly, all this talk is culminating into bickering, I'd like to get along with ya even if we do disagree. My view offends the most of you and I get a little self righteous in my posts at times, but I'd like relate that I am aware that I'm not mister Bible guru or even mister I have life all figured out. Just like you I feel like I'm on the right path...or we wouldn't be on it.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by stev0

I chased the peace I found in meditation.

One learns pretty quickly- if one is meditating with the right kind of motivation and instruction- that chasing states of mind - ie peace & bliss- is counterproductive for the simple reason that in chasing them, one becomes even more blind. Meditation is a tool, and like all tools, need to be used with circumspection and awareness. It's rightful use leads to many things, a peaceful mind being one of many, but that doesn't mean it can be popped like a pill.

Perhaps you didn't know even Christian monks and nuns sit Zazen (a form of Buddhist meditation) these days. It's called it Centering Prayer.

I don't know your reasons for being here, and won't speculate. But if you don't want to get yourself banned you are going to have to start listening to what people are saying here and stop the knee-jerking statements. More curiousity would do wonders. That said, I still have serious doubts about your future here.

You may not be able to help yourself.

[stev0]

Originally Posted by Daniel

One learns pretty quickly- if one is meditating with the right kind of motivation and instruction- that chasing states of mind - ie peace & bliss- is counterproductive for the simple reason that in chasing them, one becomes even more blind. Meditation is a tool, and like all tools, need to be used with circumspection. It's rightful use leads to many things, a peaceful mind being one of them, but that doesn't mean it can be popped like a pill.

Perhaps you didn't know Even Christian monks and nuns sit Zazen (a form of Buddhist meditation) these days. It's called it Centering Prayer.

Well I still do some meditation.. but the center of it has changed. some mediation for centering calming some for reflection on the Word...and most of the time.... I can't find time for anything but working and sleeping...but so it goes.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by stev0

Just like you I feel like I'm on the right path...or we wouldn't be on it.

I hear what your are saying, but I don't think our experiences are the same. For starters, I don't consider myself on a 'path'. Why not? Because the word implies that there is somewhere to get to. And at this point in my life, I've put aside the whole idea of getting somewhere. My sense of things is that only the present moment is at hand. There is nowhere to 'go'. Yes. I can look back at the history or story of my life and say that it has taken certain turns, and gone certain ways, but for me to assume that there is a certain 'path' that I must take above all other paths just doesn't do it for me anymore. I've seen too much death, had too much joy, and had too much life experience to posit that any 'path' to be the Only True One and all others False. I'm not saying that all the religions are the same. Surely not. I'd just rather live with some paradox.

But some people are incapable of this. They must live in certainty that they are as right as right can be. Well. That's nice for them. Problem is, they drive the rest of us nuts.

In the end, I'd rather be happy than right. Too much ego in the latter.

My point here is this: is your path making you a more loving person? To your gay brothers and sisters in Christ? Does it allow those same gay persons to love and be loved by other gay persons?

Just how big is your love?

You may have gleaned this from Buddhism, but if you didn't, please allow me to tell you:
The practice or extention of love and compassion starts with one's self, for properly speaking, you can't give what you don't have.

I'm off to bed...and I'll be saying my prayers.