A Small Response To "Homosexuality and the Bible by Walter Wink"

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Eventually, they are going to have to accept our love for what it is in all it's gay glory.

Capital L. Capital O. Capital V. Capital E.

GIMME AN "L"
GIMME AN "O"
GIMME A "V"
GIMME AN "E"

WHAT'S IT SPELL?

LOVE

LOVE

LOVE

LOVE

LOVE

LOVE

LOVE

Yay! Fanfare! Whohoo!

Brought to you by your local queer cheer brigade.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Emproph

Brought to you by your local queer cheer brigade.

Cheer away!

How did you know that green was my favorite color?

[stev0]

Originally Posted by tdogg

New question: "Well, you can't take every word as completely literal. That's insane." Who gets to decide what to take literal or not??

Well, the only way to answer that is. You've got to decide (or discern) who's teaching or what teaching is logical and trustworthy and worth following. I believe God directs us if we allow His Spirit to work in us. We may not know perfectly God's will for us but we try and if we're really concerned with doing His will, we will study those things that are unsure. so really at some point you do have to decide things for yourself.

Originally Posted by Emproph

So in Exodus we were commanded not to kill, then in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, killing is back, and now we’re not supposed to kill again. Don’t kill, kill, don’t kill. Rather fickle for an unchanging God, don’t you think? So your own claim of inerrancy is dead, you killed it.

We are commanded not to murder
I struggled with understanding these passages myself...I've come across teaching that explained this better.
It was sinful to murder someone in your own tribe or group of ppl, over your own passions, to get what you want or to get revenge for some percieved wrong. That is what I believe "Thou shalt not kill" is about.
Leaving open the ability (biblically) to kill someone out of defense or in the sense of the old testament your talking about, They were under commission from the Lord to take over lands to fulfill covenant promises from God.

Originally Posted by Emproph

A clear warning – on the last page no less – not to cause error to something that is incapable of containing error, which would be NOT ONLY another error, but a direct admission of the potential for error.

Want proof? Check out the different versions of that verse alone.

Revelations 22:18-19
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

I see your reasoning, but I believe that you broke this passage down too narrowly.
This passage could also be understood to say that people such as preacher's today when preaching the word they preach everything in the word like all about God's wrath and leave out all the parts about his love for us. or on any subject... if someone is consciously trying to leave certain things out of the Bible or tries to add his own twist to it like what I believe the Mormon church does. (their doctrine adds that your works are what get you to heaven)
So the ground you've based your argument on is unstable. (and yes i do understand that Bible is interpreted differently by lots of different ppl so it makes my argument shaky as well but the bible does give me a more stable ground than most. I must say).

Originally Posted by Emproph

Furthermore, you ignored my complaint and simply repeated you position. My point was that we haven’t agreed that your riddled with errors “authority” is authoritative in the same way. This needs to be established before any meaningful communication regarding it can occur.

At the moment I'll be honest. I don't know where to begin with establishing the authority of the Bible there are many different ways.
Do you need reasons to believe that it is inerrant?

Originally Posted by Emproph

Your answer was content free. After 130 posts in this thread we’ve amply established your “feelings” about the Bible. In addition to that, you outright IGNORED my questions, which has been a common complaint in this thread. So let’s try this again:

If homosexuality were not a sin, what problem would you personally have with it?

Homosexuality in and of it's self? None.
Some of the homosexual individuals that I've come in contact with... most were living a lifestyle that is self-destructive.
I've never personally met a homosexual Christian so I'd have to comment on that when I do.

Originally Posted by Emproph

To put it another way:

What personal evidence or experience, outside of the Bible, do you have that shows you HOW our love is sinful, and therefore harmful?

Outside of the Bible...There is no sin....The Bible is the Word of God. and Through His words we have the Law and through the Law came sin.
Romans 3:20
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
It is considered sinful "out-side" the Bible by most Christians because it is a man made twist of God's design.

Originally Posted by Emproph

If you need to be told that self-destructive addictions, lying, cheating, stealing and murder are wrong, things that harm ourselves and others, then you’ve got WAY bigger problems than whatever you think is morally wrong with same-gender attraction.

This goes to the heart of what you believe sin is. If you believe that something that is not harmful to ourselves or to others is the same as something that is harmful to ourselves or others, then that’s the essence of “anything goes” moral relativism – but worse than that, in this case, it's attributed to the Bible in an effort to define it as "absolute truth."

Just because it's not specifically harmful to others or yourself does not mean it is not a sin...simple put.
Just talk to other people on this form and they can tell you that it has been harmful to their wives and their loved ones...their desires for it were so powerful and overwhelming that it tore apart their marriages.
...that's not harmful to others....

Originally Posted by Emproph

I put that as specifically as I could so that it would be answered specifically. Friends can “love” each other, is this what you mean when you say that we “can” love each other, or are you saying that you agree that we experience REAL TRUE ROMANTIC LOVE within our relationships?

I suppose you do... I have no evidence otherwise...
If you say you do I have to take you at your word...just as you have to take me at mine when I say that I love my wife. it may show in my actions but only God discerns the heart.

Originally Posted by Emproph

If you’re perfectly equal to us in your “love of sin,” then you have nothing to add and are in no position to be judging us, in which case, what are you doing here?

I think you misinterpret it. I enjoy sin as much as anyone else...so that makes me somewhat understand of sin struggles other go through. I'm trying to say no I'm not high and mighty only God is.

Originally Posted by Emproph

So AGAIN, let’s try this again. I’ll make it even easy for you:

1. Are you, Steve0, claiming that same gender attracted persons have “exchanged” or “abandoned” our opposite gender attractions?

2. If so, do you then also claim the following about same-gender attracted persons?:

Rom. 1:28-32


3. And if you also claim the above about us, what is the connection between "choosing" same-gender attraction, in and of itself, and the desire to harm others?

1.yes.
2.I'll have to think on this some... but to my best understanding is that like all people... We struggle with different sins... and maybe someone's sin is only same-gender sexual relations and none of the others; and who is not at sometimes arrogant or boastful or alittle bit of any of those things if not only in thought.
3.I don't think that is the implication of that passage. Maybe it is but I don't think so and I will continue to mull over this verse.

[Alecto]

I'm gonna make at least a part of this real easy for you. You've already said that there are certain things you need to take our word for. Which is wise, and is something that a lot of people don't get. (I think I mentioned before here that's a pet peeve of mine: something that is wholly in my experience being invalidated by someone who couldn't possibly know). That said, let me tell you that for me personally, there was never attraction to the opposite sex. I didn't trade anything in. Nothing was exchanged or abandoned. Did I try for a year or two just to "make sure" that there was nothing there? Absolutely. Thankfully, I don't believe I hurt anyone in the process, but the fact is: the attraction was never there. The "behavior" is there for some people only because everyone around them expects it of them.

**I don't claim to speak for everybody, or every gay person, or every gay person on this forum etc. I'm only telling you my personal experience as one anecdote to prove that, at very least, not all gay folks have "changed" to be gay. Around the same time my classmates started noticing girls, I started noticing guys. Always been.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I'm gonna make at least a part of this real easy for you. You've already said that there are certain things you need to take our word for. Which is wise, and is something that a lot of people don't get. (I think I mentioned before here that's a pet peeve of mine: something that is wholly in my experience being invalidated by someone who couldn't possibly know). That said, let me tell you that for me personally, there was never attraction to the opposite sex. I didn't trade anything in. Nothing was exchanged or abandoned. Did I try for a year or two just to "make sure" that there was nothing there? Absolutely. Thankfully, I don't believe I hurt anyone in the process, but the fact is: the attraction was never there. The "behavior" is there for some people only because everyone around them expects it of them.

**I don't claim to speak for everybody, or every gay person, or every gay person on this forum etc. I'm only telling you my personal experience as one anecdote to prove that, at very least, not all gay folks have "changed" to be gay. Around the same time my classmates started noticing girls, I started noticing guys. Always been.

I want to personally thank you for sharing. I only wish more people in my life would listen to those that live your life and then just lovingly accept you, them, others, etc...
The problem with stevo, one of them, is he can not accept your life story, he believes it is faulted and even though you believe your story, you are wrong and have abandoned you "normal" sexual attractions.
Me? I believe you.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Notice of moderator action:

Dear stev0,

The moderator team has made the decision to limit your access on the Soulforce forums. You will not be able to post further messages in the public forums or send private messages to other members.

Your profile states you are 22, so we remain hopeful that one day you will accept and affirm people who are not heterosexual. Somehow I think that a lot more water will need to flow under the bridge before that happens. After 145 posts in the A Small Response to "Homosexuality and the Bible by Walter Wink" thread, you still state that we are really heterosexuals. Your comments are, at best, skeptical and dismissive of our relationships and our testimonies.

Soulforce is a civil-rights organization. We have come to see that anti-gay comments are not merely opinions, but rather a way to demean and oppress LGBT people. As long as the anti-gay groups can keep homosexuality positioned as a public "debate" they can successfully keep society from recognizing our marriages, our ordinations, our worth as people who happen to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.

I would suggest that you read Mel White's Why we can't wait to end this debate. Rev. White's case for ending the debate is one of the primary reasons why Soulforce does not host anti-gay comments on our own website.

Jamie McDaniel
Forum Administrator