My Call

[u-dog]

Oh... where to start?

"What does God want me to do next?" and the associated question: "how do I pay the mortgage and college tuition?"

Two things have happened. One, I had a really good interview last night with a church. I am reasonably certain that they will want to move forward with me to the next step. I'm not certain that this is what God wants. but I'm not certain that it ISN'T what God wants either.

Two, I was driving to work today (a long drive) thinking about all of the young gay teens who have found their way into our midst in the last month. Some of them are strong and defiant (in a good way) Some of them are hurt and devastated. They are Christian and they are gay. Their churches and their parents (even though they love them) are saying hurtful and untrue things -- about THEM -- and about THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. They are so hungry to hear what is true and what they DESERVE to hear -- which is that they are beautiful and fine and that they are the beloved children of an awesome and loving God who created them just the way they are and has purpose in doing so -- a purpose for their lives. There are hundreds of thousands of GLBT youth like these ones. Most have NOT found their way to a community of people such as this where they will hear that they are precious and beloved.

Thinking about this I found the tears coursing down my cheeks. I had to pull over and wait for them to stop because I AM pretty certain that God doesn't want me plowing into the back of a semi.

My first question for you guys: "Is this a Call?" It feels like it. It feels MORE like a call than anything I have ever experienced in my 25 year career. Thinking back over my life... back even to my own teen-aged years... I have always fantasized about being in a position to support and empower young gay people like the one I was. Also, this feels important NOT JUST because its important to protect young glbt people from being abused spiritually ... but because this assault on beautiful, perfect young gay Christians is an assault on the very essence of the Gospel itself. I feel a passion around this that I have never felt before.

My second question: how do I explore this sense of Call? how do I find the setting where I can follow this call and be faithful to it? How do I pay the mortgage and college tuition while following it and doing it.

There's more... but it will come out when you all ask the right questions. Pray for my discernment because I really feel like God is doing something in me right now. Something that He has been preparing for me for a long time now- maybe my whole life.

I would particularly appreciate the feedback and opinions of the younger set -- even (especially) the new kids.

[Zerbie]

Well, first I would take care of the mortgage and tuition payments. If you aren't solvent, you aren't going to have nearly as much resource at your disposal for helping others. Like the flight attendants say, put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others, kinda thing.

I hear you about having a call. I feel a similar one. Howwwww many hours have I spent crying over what they say to gay people? No point even trying to estimate.

So Dave: Is a move possibly in your future? I'd suggest that wherever you end up, scout around the community for community groups already in existence where you could mentor LGBT youth. Community centers with youth groups, things like that, where they could use a caring mentor to sign up and volunteer. Maybe you could offer to lead a Bible study for LGBT young people, or something like that, at an existing community center or affirming church - maybe the one where you end up pastoring, who knows? (shrug) I am sure there are lots of ways to make that happen. The first thing I would do is see if you get a "click" with an existing organization where you could just sign on and add your services. If you were in Phoenix, I could hand you stacks of brochures right now.

You know, I'm feeling a similar sense of 'call' about blending my spiritual practice more visibly into the stuff I do in the community around here. Thank you for asking such a direct bunch o questions because it's giving me ideas for things I'd like to inquire into doing myself.

[dsdrane]

I'm right there with you, u.

My take, though, isn't limited to young people, but to GLBT folks generally who are either coming back to a religion they abandoned or coming to religion for the first time (as in my case).

In droves.

That said, if we are speaking specifically about a youth ministry, perhaps a position as a college/university chaplain would be an excellent place to start.

Much to ponder...exciting!

[Daniel]

It's the sum of your life at work: ie gay man who is at once mourning his own youth while at the same time having compassion for himself and others. Seeing himself in others actually. One big circle. A young gay person's pain is your pain. Ergo- you want to do something about that.

Can it be a 'call'? Certainly! I'm not one to put things in such terms, but if want to organize your life around this new sense of purpose, I would go right ahead, while at the same time keeping your 'householding' responsibilites intact.

I can't tell you now many times I get a great idea in the shower, or when taking a walk. It seems that these are times when our mind can connect to the All That Is The Everything.

What's important is to keep listening during these daydream times: first comes the yearning and then comes the 'doing'. It's the doing that most of us get hung up on. I think the key is to keep things simple.

Listen. Action.

Over and over again.

~

The only question I can think of is this:

What do you want?

[sailaway58]

That's heavy Dave. I have known people who followed their dream and have seen success and others failure.
Personally I feel pulled into this activist mode I am into.
You have to be dealing with the desire to publicly coming out and then still being able to fully minister. I would check some MCC churches that could support you and allow you to fill your vision.
Keep a pay check is my first advice. Search for opportunity at the same time. When you find it, GO!

[tdogg]

U, it may be a call, it may just be what is in your heart to do (whether or not specifically called by God). I believe that when one's heart is in the right place, one will follow the lead the heart makes, and God will bless the path. In other words, I think God walks with us, through the doors we choose if we allow and blesses us if and when our hearts are loving and gracious.

Should your life journey lead to ministering as you feel being lead to do, then I firmly believe that you are following the love that is in your heart, and God will certainly bless you along the way.

I agree, figure out how to keep the paycheck, but not at the expense of doing nothing and breaking your heart. Where there is a will, there will always be a way. Keep the faith and love, and God will see you through U.

Probably not much help in making any decisions, but just know I'm praying for you!! I believe you have so much to offer.

[Pablo Rafael]

Dave,

It seems like you and I are both at somewhat of a crossroads; we must decide what to do concerning our sexual orientation and our careers in church work. How can we best serve the Lord? Is it to be closeted or not? Is it to be in one place or another?

I have no doubt that you are open to the voice of God. I can't tell you to do one thing or another. My advice is relax and listen. I will join my prayers for myself with prayers for you. God's leading will surely become apparent.

Your unselfishness has become very apparent on these forums. Some people seem to be unusually connected to the love of God. I think you are one of those people.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by u-dog

"What does God want me to do next?" and the associated question: "how do I pay the mortgage and college tuition?"

One, I had a really good interview last night with a church. I am reasonably certain that they will want to move forward with me to the next step. I'm not certain that this is what God wants. but I'm not certain that it ISN'T what God wants either.

What makes you uncertain? What is the small voice saying to you about this position, in particular? What passions - deep, spiritual passions - are amplified, or dulled, by this prospect?

Two, I was driving to work today (a long drive) thinking about all of the young gay teens who have found their way into our midst in the last month... Their churches and their parents (even though they love them) are saying hurtful and untrue things -- about THEM -- and about THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. They are so hungry to hear what is true and what they DESERVE to hear ... There are hundreds of thousands of GLBT youth like these ones. Most have NOT found their way to a community of people such as this where they will hear that they are precious and beloved.

Thinking about this I found the tears coursing down my cheeks.

What passions were amplified that caused you to cry. Was it a deep-seated NEED to help others? Was it a deeply-hidden cry from a young, gay child that never got the kind of support you're talking about - from his family, peers or himself?

My first question for you guys: "Is this a Call?" It feels like it. It feels MORE like a call than anything I have ever experienced in my 25 year career.

Why? What about this feels like a call? You're ne of God's "frozen chosen", and don't use "call" language lightly - so what is it calling out?

My second question: how do I explore this sense of Call? how do I find the setting where I can follow this call and be faithful to it? How do I pay the mortgage and college tuition while following it and doing it.

Examining a call takes a little time, and is best done without a knee-jerk reaction. If you take a little discernment time, you do not necessarily put your livelihood in jeopardy. We both know, however, how security and comfort can imprison us and make us set aside dreams.

If it is a "call", then the hows and wherefores will be dealt with in the discernment process. Delve deeply - use others to delve even more deeply. Be prepared to (possibly) be required to deal with some of your own, possibly as yet unresolved issues. Have courage. Keep talking to us and others.

I would particularly appreciate the feedback and opinions of the younger set -- even (especially) the new kids.

And then you wonder why you had to PM to get a response - duh! Of course, that would be the case if I had actually seen this thread before.

[BrentRichards]

I've not been ignoring this ... but I didn't want to jump right in and say anything trite or useless, which I feared I might. You've also challenged me... what am I going to do?

I happen to have watched a DVD episode of Queer as Folk yesterday in which Ben and Michael take in a young hustler to help him out ... apparently, the kid becomes part of the ongoing plot in season 3, which I am now working through. I thought of you. There are kids (not just hustlers) who need us.

I recently ran across a guy (http://www.tjparsell.com/) whose whole work is about preventing prison rape ... he was incarcerated as a juvenile and brutalized. He is gay, and much of his motivation is that gay inmates are the prime targets for sexual violence in jail. Now what am I supposed to do with THAT information in my new job?

I am digressing, this has nothing to do with your question. I will say that the first two things that came to mind with your post were two existing efforts, which you may be able to get some info from, or even tie yourself to, avocationally if not professionally: HRC has a Religion & Faith Program (http://www.hrc.org/issues/religion.asp) that I know values clergy involvement ... in what forms I don't know. GLSEN (www.glsen.org) is the big player in GLBT youth issues. Maybe check out their sites for some ideas?

The old expression is "money follows ministry" ... that being said, I don't think you can take the possibility of losing your regular income lightly ... and I suspect that, in your circumstances, God would not ask you to. I'm thinking that perhaps the first question to ask is "What can I do locally?" and then see what God asks you to do next. Starting an exclusively focused ministry may not be the right first step, or at least not the necessary first step. Find one or two kids to help and see where it goes?

I will continue to mull and pray on this ... believe me, you've got me thinking.

[Vanessa White]

I, too, needed to think on this to respond, because it is really DEEP, and sounds pretty significant for you and yours. Yes, life's realities of what needs to be paid and when, definitely have to be a consideration. However, if that prevents a person from going to a place to which they are being led, maybe one needs to get really creative with how the finances could be handled differently than what we are accustomed to, if it allows us to follow our true heart's calling. I agree with T-dogg, that where there is a will, there is a way. I also agree deeply with Daniel, about thought, and action. I just had an affirmation that I read today, about being clear with ourselves, and our God, about our true INTENTIONS. Dreams and wishes are those things that live in our minds and imagination, and the INTENTION is what makes it real, puts it into action. Follow your heart, go through with what the intention is, and be real with yourself about it as to why it is calling to you. You know the truth within yourself, you really do. Whatever this will look like for you in terms of a vocation, I believe that it is a significant step in your process of self-realization.

My heart and prayers go with you on this very personal, deep journey. Peace, friend!!!!!

[Daniel]

U-dog- Sorry - I'm not being very artful in how I ask them. Just thought they needed asking though.

Originally Posted by u-dog

Two things have happened. One, I had a really good interview last night with a church. I am reasonably certain that they will want to move forward with me to the next step. I'm not certain that this is what God wants. but I'm not certain that it ISN'T what God wants either.

Will taking this position keep you in the closet professionally? Do you want to be more 'out at work'? If this is a relevant issue, how does it affect the situation and your desire to work with youth?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Daniel

U-dog- Sorry - I'm not being very artful in how I ask them. Just thought they needed asking though.



Will taking this position keep you in the closet professionally? Do you want to be more 'out at work'? If this is a relevant issue, how does it affect the situation and your desire to work with youth?

Excellent question Daniel... thank you.

Ideally, I would like to be:

1. a Presbyterian
2. a pastor
3. out and authentic to the world
4. active as an advocate for GLBT people in particular and GLBT youth in particular.


This position (for which I may or may not still be in consideration since I haven't heard "boo" from them since Monday night) would NOT, I think, allow me to come out immediately, but might allow it after the pastoral relationship was solidly established. They are an open and affirming congregation and have been for some time. However... it doesn't seem to have permeated their culture to the degree that I had hoped. hence my uncertainty ... or some of it.

On the other hand it would almost certainly be a place where I would have the freedom to design and lead ministry aimed at the needs of GLBT people and their families. For instance. kids are coming out at an earlier and earlier age. The average coming out age USED to be after college. Now it is, I think, freshman year of college. Soon it will be high school and eventually middle school (really strong and courageous kids are already beginning to come out then). Who provides ministry for families with glbt AND straight kids? what would youth ministry look like under those circumstances? Can a glbt church meet the needs of such families? will the straight sibs feel comfortable in such a community? some might. most probably not. Plus, GLBT churches have to contend with the stupid assumption that they might be "recruiting" the youth of America.

This church might be a place that would be willing to claim that niche and could do so without raising the fears of "recruitment." Polly and I seem to be choosing the path of staying together. Between the two of us we have an amazing package of resources and gifts to do this work. We are parents (pretty damned good ones if I do say so myself) theologically trained (both of us) psychologically trained (her mostly but me by osmosis), institutionally and culturally savvy, and members of the sexual minority community. We also have have 20+ years of pastoral experience together. we could do awesome work.

[paul]

Okay Dave,
Forgive me please, I haven't had a chance to read any of the replies to this yet (I promise I will, pressed for time right now...got to get to work, budget time). My suspicion, knowing the gang here, is I will be redundant or not nearly as wise.



"What does God want me to do next?" and the associated question: "how do I pay the mortgage and college tuition?"


I am writing this to you Dave. To Dave as I have come to see him.

In answer to the first question, Part "A": "What does God want me to do next?" This answer is meant to be neither trite or cryptic. It is fully connected to the answer to the second question. I believe that first, what ever position you find your self in, God wants you "...to be therewith content...." As to "what" to do, I believe God wants you to love. I know what you are asking here and that I may not seem to be answering it, but I am (see part "B").

Part "B." "how do I pay the mortgage and college tuition?" "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and these things shall be added to you...." I believe you aspire to be a man of faith. That you truly believe in a God who loves and cares for you. "These three things remain, faith, hope and love, the greatest of these being love..." (thus the answer to part "A"). Your hope, expectation, is in a loving God who will give you bread, not a snake or rock. You have faith that that hope/expectation is placed in the right place, i.e., God/Jesus. As long as your hope is placed on God/Jesus, not position or people, you will "not be disappointed/ashamed." The righteous man walks by faith, not by sight. You may not "know" (see, "sight") "what God wants you to do next." Walking by faith you will walk (you understand that faith requires walking sometimes and sometimes it requires "waiting upon the Lord", but we also know that "he who will not work, will not eat"), "acknowledging God in all your ways" believing that God will indeed "direct your paths." If you are doing your part, acknowledging God at all times, it is up to God to direct your path...whether you know it when God does it, or not. As a man who has faith in a loving God, you can rest...enter into that rest that ceases from ones own works.

You owe nothing but love.

okay...I hope I didn't just go way off into weirdom.
paul

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

Okay Dave,
Forgive me please, I haven't had a chance to read any of the replies to this yet (I promise I will, pressed for time right now...got to get to work, budget time). My suspicion, knowing the gang here, is I will be redundant or not nearly as wise.



"What does God want me to do next?" and the associated question: "how do I pay the mortgage and college tuition?"


I am writing this to you Dave. To Dave as I have come to see him.

In answer to the first question, Part "A": "What does God want me to do next?" This answer is meant to be neither trite or cryptic. It is fully connected to the answer to the second question. I believe that first, what ever position you find your self in God wants you "...to be therewith content...." As to "what" to do, I believe God wants you to love. I know what you are asking here and that I may not seem to be answering it, but I am (see part "B").

Part "B." "how do I pay the mortgage and college tuition?" "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and these things shall be added to you...." I believe you aspire to be a man of faith. That you truly believe in a God who loves and cares for you. "These three things remain, faith, hope and love, the greatest of these being love..." (thus the answer to part "A"). Your hope, expectation, is in a loving God who will give you bread, not a snake or rock. You have faith that that hope/expectation is placed in the right place, i.e., God/Jesus. As long as your hope is placed on God/Jesus, not position or people, you will "not be disappointed/ashamed." The righteous man walks by faith, not by sight. You may not "know" (see, "sight") "what God wants you to do next." Walking by faith you will walk (you understand that faith requires walking sometimes and sometimes it requires "waiting upon the Lord", but we also know that "he who will not work, will not eat"), "acknowledging God in all your ways" believing that God will indeed "direct your paths." If you are doing your part, acknowledging God at all times, it is up to God to direct your path...whether you know it when God does it, or not. As a man who has faith in a loving God, you can rest...enter into that rest that ceases from ones own works.

You owe nothing but love.

okay...I hope I didn't just go way off into weirdom.
paul

You did. but what an intriguing form of weirdness it is. One that I will now devote much of my day considering and reflecting upon... not to mention praying about. thanks very much indeed.

You may or may not "believe" in God... but he sure as shootin believes in you!

[paul]

Originally Posted by u-dog

You did. but what an intriguing form of weirdness it is. One that I will now devote much of my day considering and reflecting upon... not to mention praying about. thanks very much indeed.

You may or may not "believe" in God... but he sure as shootin believes in you!

I never said that I "don't believe in God." I said I am a deconvert from fundamental Christianity. I don't know enough to say "I don't believe in God."

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

I never said that I "don't believe in God." I said I am a deconvert from fundamental Christianity. I don't know enough to say "I don't believe in God."

Now THAT I can believe! and thanks again for your reflections. They are spoken in a dialect of Christian in which I am not so fluent but your words are ringing true to me and I am mulling them over.

[paul]

Originally Posted by u-dog

They are spoken in a dialect of Christian in which I am not so fluent but your words are ringing true to me and I am mulling them over.

Oh, sorry, I hope I wasn't too out there...I have a problem with assuming people will read between my fine lines. I respect your intelligence, so may not explain myself with you. Lot's of quoting I thought you'd recognize. Believe me, most "Christians" glaze over when I talk (except for Zerbie, she always seems to understand me perfectly)

I have now read what everyone has written and am so impressed by the wisdom and insight. It makes me confident that anything I would share would get a deep, loving, caring response from many. I'm astounded.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

Oh, sorry, I hope I wasn't too out there...I have a problem with assuming people will read between my fine lines. I respect your intelligence, so may not explain myself with you. Lot's of quoting I thought you'd recognize. Believe me, most "Christians" glaze over when I talk (except for Zerbie, she always seems to understand me perfectly)

I have now read what everyone has written and am so impressed by the wisdom and insight. It makes me confident that anything I would share would get a deep, loving, caring response from many. I'm astounded.

Ok Paul! let me spell it out for you. All the responses so far have been helpful to me... REALLY helpful. WHAT YOU WROTE TOUCHED ME AND CAUSED ME TO THINK AND REFLECT IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN OTHER RESPONSES DID. You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. You are a part of this amazing and awesome and caring community! Take me deep into Weirdom any time you want! I follow willingly!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by paul

okay...I hope I didn't just go way off into weirdom.
paul

Wha - ?! Wha - ?! WEIRD???!!! Not at ALLL!!!!!!

That's clearer than a glass of pure water. And I've been so stressed lately, I have not been seeing clearly as you, Paul. Thank you so much for the reminder.

Originally Posted by u-dog

You did. but what an intriguing form of weirdness it is.

YOU thought that was weird????!!!!

That is one of the cornerstones of Jesus' teaching. Faith.
Yet, no matter how much evidence we have seen of Him in our lives, we always forget it and fail to trust. He wants us to have faith 100%.

Originally Posted by u-dog

They are spoken in a dialect of Christian in which I am not so fluent but your words are ringing true to me and I am mulling them over.

Paul sees well into the heart of things. He has real insight.

Originally Posted by paul

Oh, sorry, I hope I wasn't too out there...I have a problem with assuming people will read between my fine lines. I respect your intelligence, so may not explain myself with you. Lot's of quoting I thought you'd recognize. Believe me, most "Christians" glaze over when I talk (except for Zerbie, she always seems to understand me perfectly)

When you write about such topics, Paul, it is like I see your words in giant block letters, it is so simple, direct, and clear.

You were NOT "out there" at ALL. You were IN. In the center of Jesus' teaching. Lilies of the field kinda thing.

Man! did you learn that stuff IN A CHURCH? If you did, now I want to go.

Originally Posted by u-dog

WHAT YOU WROTE TOUCHED ME AND CAUSED ME TO THINK AND REFLECT IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN OTHER RESPONSES DID. Take me deep into Weirdom any time you want! I follow willingly!

Because everyone but Paul answered you in worldly terms. Paul gave a religious answer.
(I feel like a 2 year old next to his mature insights. Where's my lollipop?)

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Because everyone but Paul answered you in worldly terms. Paul gave a religious answer.
(I feel like a 2 year old next to his mature insights. Where's my lollipop?)

but you shouldn't Zerb! I have been reading (and rereading) the responses now for about three days. the degree to which the very different responses are coalescing into an coherant answer is quite awesome to me. I am in debt to all of you. including weird Paul. I asked the question in one dialect of Christian... he answered in another and that alone generates unanticipated insight. God is good and so are all of you!

But I want MORE! more insight! more wisdom! FEEEEEEEED MEEEEE !!

I especially would like to hear from YOUNG PEOPLE ... since this sense of call seems to have something to do with them.

Did you notice the reference to "little shop of horrors"? see? I' really am a gay man!